Arriva Rail North DOO

[northwichcat]

Where has the Merseyrail DOO thread gone?

Same place it's always been, although neither the union or TOC think it's in the right place

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=142573

 

[northwichcat]

Yorkshire & North East strike timetables have again appeared in advance of North West ones: https://www.northernrailway.co.uk/industrial-action

 

[Olaf]

Do we need a new law to address pre-meditated Corporate Sabotage to address issues such as this series of strikes and illegal data theft?

 

[northwichcat]

Do we need a new law to address pre-meditated Corporate Sabotage to address issues such as this series of strikes and illegal data theft?

This has been discussed before. I think a lot of people support the guards having the right to strike but the number of people who support the attempt to cripple an essential public service as much as possible to make a point is limited.

 

[craigybagel]

But the number of people who support the attempt to cripple an essential public service as much as possible to make a point is limited.

Indeed - the Tory party are very unpopular these days.

 

[northwichcat]

Indeed - the Tory party are very unpopular these days.

In an ideal world DfT wouldn't come up with a random figure for DCO (as with Northern) and would ask bidders to look at whether or not it's a suitable method of operation for each route they'll be operating, while the RMT wouldn't ballot for strikes on the basis that new stock is DOO compatible and the operator hasn't clarified whether or not they'll run services as DOO (as with other operators.) The RMT even called strike action against old Northern on the basis of what was contained in the ITT for the new franchise before they were advised it would be illegal to strike against a different company to the one which will introduce DCO.

 

[Clip]

Indeed - the Tory party are very unpopular these days.

And yet opinion polls don't seem to back up your statement - is there something you can point out to me that I have missed that confirms your statement? Thanks

 

[craigybagel]

In an ideal world DfT wouldn't come up with a random figure for DCO (as with Northern) and would ask bidders to look at whether or not it's a suitable method of operation for each route they'll be operating, while the RMT wouldn't ballot for strikes on the basis that new stock is DOO compatible and the operator hasn't clarified whether or not they'll run services as DOO (as with other operators.) The RMT even called strike action against old Northern on the basis of what was contained in the ITT for the new franchise before they were advised it would be illegal to strike against a different company to the one which will introduce DCO.

And in an ideal world Northern would clarify their intentions regards DOO. They fact that they won't despite the strikes that are happening as a result, speaks volumes.

 

[northwichcat]

And in an ideal world Northern would clarify their intentions regards DOO. They fact that they won't despite the strikes that are happening as a result, speaks volumes.

Northern claim they are willing to discuss the routes where DCO will be used with the unions before they are finalised and that the RMT won't meet with them to discuss that.

 

[YorkshireBear]

Northern claim they are willing to discuss the routes where DCO will be used with the unions before they are finalised and that the RMT won't meet with them to discuss that.

AS ever the truth will lie somewhere in the middle

 

[philthetube]

As always, if these negotiations had to be done in public, we would all know who was being intransigent, and probably we would see far less strikes as a result.

 

[northwichcat]

AS ever the truth will lie somewhere in the middle

I would guess the middle is Northern will meet with the RMT to discuss the DCO routes but they isn't all that much scope from changing from a plan they already have and the RMT only want to meet if there is scope to reduce the number of DCO routes - ideally to 0.

 

[Robertj21a]

Northern claim they are willing to discuss the routes where DCO will be used with the unions before they are finalised and that the RMT won't meet with them to discuss that.

If that's true [Note the 'IF'], there should be a Union statement somewhere explaining why. Is there one ?

Is Northern telling porkies ?

 

[northwichcat]

If that's true [Note the 'IF'], there should be a Union statement somewhere explaining why. Is there one ?

Is Northern telling porkies ?

The company have made it clear repeatedly that they are not prepared to discuss the core issue of the second safety-critical person on their trains and will only meet to discuss the terms of the RMT’s surrender on the fundamental issue of Driver Only Operation.

https://www.rmt.org.uk/news/rmt-confirms-two-days-of-strike-action-on-arriva-rail-north1909/

So it sounds like the RMT only want to meet to tell Northern why there should be a guard on every service and Northern only want to meet to discuss which services can have the guard removed from them.

 

[Robertj21a]

https://www.rmt.org.uk/news/rmt-confirms-two-days-of-strike-action-on-arriva-rail-north1909/

So it sounds like the RMT only want to meet to tell Northern why there should be a guard on every service and Northern only want to meet to discuss which services can have the guard removed from them.

Ah, right - rather as I'd expected. Not much point in anyone meeting anyone else then !. Presumably, strikes and/or other industrial action will continue for many more months.

 

[PR1Berske]

https://www.rmt.org.uk/news/rmt-confirms-two-days-of-strike-action-on-arriva-rail-north1909/

So it sounds like the RMT only want to meet to tell Northern why there should be a guard on every service and Northern only want to meet to discuss which services can have the guard removed from them.

And that would suggest nobody will get what they want from now until when? Something, sometime, will have to give.

 

[Robertj21a]

And that would suggest nobody will get what they want from now until when? Something, sometime, will have to give.

Well I'd guess it has about 6-9 months to go before one side or other gives way a little. Presumably, that will mean plenty of strikes in the meantime ?

 

[PR1Berske]

Well I'd guess it has about 6-9 months to go before one side or other gives way a little. Presumably, that will mean plenty of strikes in the meantime ?

Nine months is a long time in politics (smallcase and capital 'p'!)

 

[Andrew32]

Talks between both sides today anyway

 

[Jamesrob637]

Yorkshire & North East strike timetables have again appeared in advance of North West ones: https://www.northernrailway.co.uk/industrial-action

Manchester and the North West's timetables are up
Pleased to see at least that I can catch a suitable train to and from work as per last time strikes took place albeit half an hour earlier going into Manchester

 

[Jamesrob637]

Talks between both sides today anyway

How did they go/conclude?

 

[footprints]

How did they go/conclude?

Apparently RMT came up with a six-point plan and this was rejected.

https://www.rmt.org.uk/news/rmt-strike-action-goes-ahead-on-northern-rail/

The six-point plan can be summarised as follows:

1) Keep the guard on the train;
2) Keep the guard on the train;
3) Keep the guard on the train;
4) Keep the guard on the train;
5) Keep the guard on the train;
6) Keep the guard on the train.

 

[northwichcat]

Apparently RMT came up with a six-point plan and this was rejected.

https://www.rmt.org.uk/news/rmt-strike-action-goes-ahead-on-northern-rail/

The six-point plan can be summarised as follows:

1) Keep the guard on the train;
2) Keep the guard on the train;
3) Keep the guard on the train;
4) Keep the guard on the train;
5) Keep the guard on the train;
6) Keep the guard on the train.

Or
1. Have a guard on every service.
2. Have the guard release the doors at every station.
3. Have the guard close the doors at every station.
4. Give the guard a pay rise at or above RPI if RPI is high
5. Give the guard a pay rise above RPI if RPI is low and Arriva Rail North made a profit
6. Give the guard a pay rise above RPI if RPI is low and Arriva Rail North made a loss and either Arriva PLC or DB made profits.

 

[Robertj21a]

Apparently RMT came up with a six-point plan and this was rejected.

https://www.rmt.org.uk/news/rmt-strike-action-goes-ahead-on-northern-rail/

The six-point plan can be summarised as follows:

1) Keep the guard on the train;
2) Keep the guard on the train;
3) Keep the guard on the train;
4) Keep the guard on the train;
5) Keep the guard on the train;
6) Keep the guard on the train.

That is rather how it reads !

I love the '.......Arriva has wrecked the talks process' !!

 

[craigybagel]

Or
1. Have a guard on every service.
2. Have the guard release the doors at every station.
3. Have the guard close the doors at every station.
4. Give the guard a pay rise at or above RPI if RPI is high
5. Give the guard a pay rise above RPI if RPI is low and Arriva Rail North made a profit
6. Give the guard a pay rise above RPI if RPI is low and Arriva Rail North made a loss and either Arriva PLC or DB made profits.

1 click is all it would have taken for you to see what the actual 6 points were - might I suggest you try reading them? Amongst other things, it specifically states that they are willing to discuss the Driver opening the doors. It doesn't say anywhere anything about pay. The arguments on this website are painful enough as it is without you spouting nonsense like this.

 

[northwichcat]

1 click is all it would have taken for you to see what the actual 6 points were - might I suggest you try reading them? Amongst other things, it specifically states that they are willing to discuss the Driver opening the doors. It doesn't say anywhere anything about pay. The arguments on this website are painful enough as it is without you spouting nonsense like this.

Northern have already offered a good pay deal which will be why pay isn't mentioned this time.

Perhaps you should instead remind footprints of the forum rule to quote the relevant part of the article and not just provide the link. As he/she didn't I presumed the RMT hadn't made them public.

Surely the RMT should know number 2 is a non-starter

2, to also accept the same operational arrangement that was being considered and negotiated within the Transpennine Franchise and accepted as safe means of operation by the Department of Transport.

TPE have no DCO/DOO requirement. The concerns the RMT had about DOO were simply because DfT and the ROSCO wanted the new stock to be DOO compatible for future proofing not because there were any plan for TPE to use the features.

While they forgot to mention Rail North as a party responsible in the franchise specification when coming up with this idea. Out of interest did the RMT (and ASLEF) provide written detailed reports explaining problems with DOO in response to the franchise consultation?

4, to jointly meet with the Department of Transport (DFT) in order of prosecuting our concerns and with the aspiration of seeking an amendment to the franchise specification which suits all respective parties.

With regards to this one I somehow can't see Mick Cash signing off a communication giving the TOC's point of view or the Northern MD signing off a communication giving the RMT's point of view.

6, to submit and circulate genuine, transparent, accurate joint communications, advising you the workforce of the content of our discussions.

Especially when the RMT make claims like this

Not only has Chris Grayling axed promised rail electrification in the North he is also compelling his contractors, Northern Rail, to get rid of over a 1000 skilled railway guards provoking a major industrial dispute in defence of rail safety.

https://www.rmt.org.uk/news/rmt-responds-to-hypocrisy-and-hot-air-of-chris-grayling/

When Northern have already given a guarantee that no guards will lose their jobs or be moved to a lower pay grade.

 

[313103]

When Northern have already given a guarantee that no guards will lose their jobs or be moved to a lower pay grade.

I dont know who you are trying to fool, because we all know that to make staff redundant costs more and shows the company in a bad light if they say staff will be made redundant. Its a play on words and is smoke and mirrors designed to make it something that it isnt. For a start to avoid 'COMPULSORY' redundancies they will go down the road of the created 'VOLUNTARY' redundancy. When that is exhausted they will 'CREATE' additional roles in order to justify making their statement about 'No Guard will lose their job' its all dressed up to make it look good. But in the long run we see the created grades drift away and they will try and merge with other grades (a la London Overground)

We have all seen the brief made by the RSSG in their cost analysis to the tocs in how to make the railway cheaper. The best way was by getting rid of the guard and replacing them by employing cheaper NSC members of staff in the interim (a la Southern), Northern are looking at this method as well and then eventually getting rid of the NSC staff.

 

[Robertj21a]

I dont know who you are trying to fool, because we all know that to make staff redundant costs more and shows the company in a bad light if they say staff will be made redundant. Its a play on words and is smoke and mirrors designed to make it something that it isnt. For a start to avoid 'COMPULSORY' redundancies they will go down the road of the created 'VOLUNTARY' redundancy. When that is exhausted they will 'CREATE' additional roles in order to justify making their statement about 'No Guard will lose their job' its all dressed up to make it look good. But in the long run we see the created grades drift away and they will try and merge with other grades (a la London Overground)

We have all seen the brief made by the RSSG in their cost analysis to the tocs in how to make the railway cheaper. The best way was by getting rid of the guard and replacing them by employing cheaper NSC members of staff in the interim (a la Southern), Northern are looking at this method as well and then eventually getting rid of the NSC staff.

What is the problem if they offer VOLUNTARY redundancy ?

 

[northwichcat]

I dont know who you are trying to fool, because we all know that to make staff redundant costs more and shows the company in a bad light if they say staff will be made redundant. Its a play on words and is smoke and mirrors designed to make it something that it isnt. For a start to avoid 'COMPULSORY' redundancies they will go down the road of the created 'VOLUNTARY' redundancy. When that is exhausted they will 'CREATE' additional roles in order to justify making their statement about 'No Guard will lose their job' its all dressed up to make it look good. But in the long run we see the created grades drift away and they will try and merge with other grades (a la London Overground)

We have all seen the brief made by the RSSG in their cost analysis to the tocs in how to make the railway cheaper. The best way was by getting rid of the guard and replacing them by employing cheaper NSC members of staff in the interim (a la Southern), Northern are looking at this method as well and then eventually getting rid of the NSC staff.

Do you have any evidence for your theory that Northern are going down the same route as Southern and LO?

Were Southern or LO actively recruiting ADDITIONAL guards while a DOO dispute with the RMT was going on (as Northern currently are)?

Did Southern or LO say anything about diagramming all services to have 2 members of staff on board and only running a train with just a driver on board if the second person was unavailable?

Did other disputes partly come about because passengers said they wanted to see a visible staff presence on trains when the franchises were being consulted on and the existing guard + driver operation wasn't providing that on a number of services? DCO wasn't just DfT's idea, Rail North (consisting of mainly Labour led councils) wanted it as well, despite the unions and some Labour MPs criticising it as a Tory policy.

Northern are in a position to employ all the additional new guards on fixed term contracts if they want to reduce the number of guards in future without making guards already working for Northern redundant. Also, unlike Merseyrail, any surplus guards could end up working some services as AFCs in the short term, as it's not Northern's plan to run most services with just the driver on board.

The Northern dispute has very few similarities with the Southern and Merseyrail disputes and the RMT aren't doing themselves any favours by coordinating strike dates.

 

[313103]

Do you have any evidence for your theory that Northern are going down the same route as Southern and LO?

No i do not have direct evidence, i base it on everything that has gone on before, history always has this nasty habit of repeating itself.

Were Southern or LO actively recruiting ADDITIONAL guards while a DOO dispute with the RMT was going on (as Northern currently are)?

Cannot speak for southern, but London Overground were and they had 14 new conductors in their second week of training, about 4 left without ever returning to the classroom on hearing that news and i by the end of the course only three remained.

Did Southern or LO say anything about diagramming all services to have 2 members of staff on board and only running a train with just a driver on board if the second person was unavailable?

Again i cannot speak for Southern . London Overground's stance was to run every train DOO.

Did other disputes partly come about because passengers said they wanted to see a visible staff presence on trains when the franchises were being consulted on and the existing guard + driver operation wasn't providing that on a number of services? DCO wasn't just DfT's idea, Rail North (consisting of mainly Labour led councils) wanted it as well, despite the unions and some Labour MPs criticising it as a Tory policy.

DOO on LO come in 7 years after LO had been given the concession and less then 1 year after the 2012 olympic games in which they were awarded the Gold star for Customer satisfaction and service. Cynical me believes that conductors were only kept on because of the olympics and got rid of soon after.
As for staff not being visible that is something no passenger on London Overground could say. 99% of the guards including myself spent most of the time in the train. Sadly the same cannot be said whenever i have had the pleasure to use them since DOO came in.