Expansions for Scotland's rail network proposed

[Clansman]

Seeing as we're on the subject of the WCML I'll punt this one in - does anyone else think that there would any merit in a 10 mile electrified chord from the South end of Dumfries to the South end of Lockerbie? Could speed up Dumfries journeys by at least half an hour (making rail more attractive), and instate regular ScotRail services through Lockerbie, taking the burden off of Transpennine and Virgin Trains.

For two towns of a combined population a little greater than the likes of Stirling and Perth, the rail links from Lockerbie and Dumfries to Glasgow and Edinburgh really are poor in comparison.

Not the greatest idea in the world but thinking it through, I wouldn't say it would be the worst scheme to invest in compared to others that have been touted.

 

[najaB]

That's a good point about the northern curve ... It has a horrible adverse camber...

That must be something that could be fixed in a long weekend possession though, if the desire was there?

 

[Railsigns]

That must be something that could be fixed in a long weekend possession though, if the desire was there?

What's to fix? The negative cant ("adverse camber") at that location is a deliberate feature of the track geometry.

 

[najaB]

What's to fix? The negative cant ("adverse camber") at that location is a deliberate feature of the track geometry.

Hence the 'if the desire was there' part of my post.

 

[edwin_m]

With the current layout, removing the negative cant would increasing the speed between Glasgow and Edinburgh but at the cost of reducing the speed on the WCML, certainly in the Up direction and possibly Down as well. Since far more passing trains are to/from Carlisle, and about half of the Edinburgh ones stop at Carstairs anyway, it makes sense to design the junction to maximise WCML speed. Though it is possibly a PITA to maintain this alignment.

 

[Sox]

Must admit, when traveling from the south to Edinburgh, I always cringe when passing through Carstairs.

All that slow motion creaking and grinding, overseas visitors must think "what on earth is this jalopy outfit about?"

 

[DynamicSpirit]

That's a good point about the northern curve; it seems to be forgotten whenever Carstairs realignment comes up, with the focus on its southern brother. It has a horrible adverse camber, which can be seen on plenty of videos shot from the station but this is one of the best I've seen that illustrates it:

To slightly change the topic, I just watched that video, and was somewhat puzzled because the video claimed it was of a Euston-Glasgow train. However, if my matching up with Google Maps is correct, the train appears to be approaching from the Edinburgh direction. How is that possible?

 

[Clansman]

To slightly change the topic, I just watched that video, and was somewhat puzzled because the video claimed it was of a Euston-Glasgow train. However, if my matching up with Google Maps is correct, the train appears to be approaching from the Edinburgh direction. How is that possible?

It would have been diverted via the ECML, taking the North London Line from Willesden Junction upon departure from Euston - as per the description in the video.

 

[47271]

Seeing as we're on the subject of the WCML I'll punt this one in - does anyone else think that there would any merit in a 10 mile electrified chord from the South end of Dumfries to the South end of Lockerbie? Could speed up Dumfries journeys by at least half an hour (making rail more attractive), and instate regular ScotRail services through Lockerbie, taking the burden off of Transpennine and Virgin Trains.

For two towns of a combined population a little greater than the likes of Stirling and Perth, the rail links from Lockerbie and Dumfries to Glasgow and Edinburgh really are poor in comparison.

Not the greatest idea in the world but thinking it through, I wouldn't say it would be the worst scheme to invest in compared to others that have been touted.

It is an idea, but possibly one that would be more expensive than you might think.

If you look at the route of the old Dumfries-Lochmaben-Lockerbie line then it takes a very winding path northwards from Locharbriggs and round the hills, not at all convenient for a fast link to the main line. With the more southerly alignment you suggest you'd need to get round about 700' maximum altitude plus cross the River Annan. Not impossible, but tricky I'd say.

What about the old Solway Viaduct line from Annan to the WCML, that would form the chord without the new engineering?

That said, I'd suggest that if we want to spend money on improving links between Dumfriesshire and the central belt then I'd say we start with stations at Beattock and Thornhill.

 

[Altnabreac]

It is an idea, but possibly one that would be more expensive than you might think.

If you look at the route of the old Dumfries-Lochmaben-Lockerbie line then it takes a very winding path northwards from Locharbriggs and round the hills, not at all convenient for a fast link to the main line. With the more southerly alignment you suggest you'd need to get round about 700' maximum altitude plus cross the River Annan. Not impossible, but tricky I'd say.

What about the old Solway Viaduct line from Annan to the WCML, that would form the chord without the new engineering?

That said, I'd suggest that if we want to spend money on improving links between Dumfriesshire and the central belt then I'd say we start with stations at Beattock and Thornhill.

I think a new high quality dual carriageway road from Dumfries to Lockerbie with expanded parking at the station and extended platforms allowing High Speed trains to call at Lockerbie is a more likely intervention.

It would thus improve links to the central belt from Dumfries, take through traffic off the A701 and A75, improve journey times for Cairnryan traffic and increase viability of HS2 calls at Lockerbie (although likely only Edinburgh / Glasgow - Birmingham services would call).

 

[najaB]

I think a new high quality dual carriageway road from Dumfries to Lockerbie with expanded parking at the station and extended platforms allowing High Speed trains to call at Lockerbie is a more likely intervention.

Along with integrated ticketing on a bus service that uses the new link road.

 

[Mordac]

Must admit, when traveling from the south to Edinburgh, I always cringe when passing through Carstairs.

All that slow motion creaking and grinding, overseas visitors must think "what on earth is this jalopy outfit about?"

The worst thing is the neutral section... everything goes quiet as you glide past the State Hospital... Horror film scenario of the train gets stuck!

 

[47271]

I think a new high quality dual carriageway road from Dumfries to Lockerbie with expanded parking at the station and extended platforms allowing High Speed trains to call at Lockerbie is a more likely intervention.

It would thus improve links to the central belt from Dumfries, take through traffic off the A701 and A75, improve journey times for Cairnryan traffic and increase viability of HS2 calls at Lockerbie (although likely only Edinburgh / Glasgow - Birmingham services would call).

Well, yes, that's another expensive way of doing it but I can see that it would solve the problems of the A75 and A701 at a stroke.

It would have a massive effect on the middle of Lockerbie, but there may be enough redundant land to achieve the platforms and parking.

In the shorter term, they need to do something about Lockerbie station's existing car park, the last few times I've gone from there I've had to leave the car in a residential street nearby which I'm aware is pretty antisocial.

 

[Altnabreac]

Well, yes, that's another expensive way of doing it but I can see that it would solve the problems of the A75 and A701 at a stroke.

It would have a massive effect on the middle of Lockerbie, but there may be enough redundant land to achieve the platforms and parking.

In the shorter term, they need to do something about Lockerbie station's existing car park, the last few times I've gone from there I've had to leave the car in a residential street nearby which I'm aware is pretty antisocial.

Yes, extra parking and 400m platforms could be the easy to deliver Phase 1 of that intervention,

 

[route101]

By 'northern curve' do you mean the line that would be used by all trains between Glasgow and Edinburgh?

No , the curve above that , dosent look like its used but its electrfied

 

[Highlandspring]

No , the curve above that , dosent look like its used but its electrfied

You're thinking of the Up Through Siding, which joins the Carstairs Curve (incidentally its just the Carstairs South Curve that has a cardinal direction in its name) towards Carstairs East Jn. It is, indeed, extremely rarely used.

 

[Bevan Price]

Seeing as we're on the subject of the WCML I'll punt this one in - does anyone else think that there would any merit in a 10 mile electrified chord from the South end of Dumfries to the South end of Lockerbie? Could speed up Dumfries journeys by at least half an hour (making rail more attractive), and instate regular ScotRail services through Lockerbie, taking the burden off of Transpennine and Virgin Trains.

For two towns of a combined population a little greater than the likes of Stirling and Perth, the rail links from Lockerbie and Dumfries to Glasgow and Edinburgh really are poor in comparison.

Not the greatest idea in the world but thinking it through, I wouldn't say it would be the worst scheme to invest in compared to others that have been touted.

Personally, I think it would be better to complete redoubling of the GSW line from Dumfries to Kilmarnock & Glasgow, and run a few expresses in addition to the current services (e.g. Carlisle, Dumfries, Kilmarnock & Glasgow only)

 

[Grinner]

Personally, I think it would be better to complete redoubling of the GSW line from Dumfries to Kilmarnock & Glasgow, and run a few expresses in addition to the current services (e.g. Carlisle, Dumfries, Kilmarnock & Glasgow only)

I guess a realistic aim could be some more double track and other enhancements to line speed/service in a similar manner to what is being done on the Aberdeen-Inverness line. Which when I come to think of it, has some similarities with the GSW line: major city at one end, smaller but regionally important at the other, passess through some populated areas with reasonably large settlements, but also some more sparsely populated sections, and passess through some places that would be large enough to justify new stations.

 

[Altnabreac]

Personally, I think it would be better to complete redoubling of the GSW line from Dumfries to Kilmarnock & Glasgow, and run a few expresses in addition to the current services (e.g. Carlisle, Dumfries, Kilmarnock & Glasgow only)

Dumfries - Kilmarnock is fully double track already and Glasgow - Kilmarnock is 2tph anyway so there is certainly capacity to run more of those services south of Kilmarnock if the demand were there.

In terms of a faster service the Scotland Route Study identified a possible requirement for a 3rd train per hour running fast from Glasgow to Kilmarnock but it didn't propose any additional double track between Barrhead and Kilmarnock with electrification and signalling improvements being proposed instead:

Timetable assessment indicates double track not required, as additional signal sections would deliver sufficient capacity and timetable benefits.

 

[och aye]

Just found this:

http://newburghtrainstation.org.uk/

Is this a viable reopening?

 

[najaB]

Is this a viable reopening?

Pretty sure it's been mentioned already in this thread - yes, it's a viable reopening. There's unmet demand, the station wouldn't cost much to reinstate and there is slack in the timetable to accommodate an additional stop.

 

[47271]

Just found this:

http://newburghtrainstation.org.uk/

Is this a viable reopening?

Speaking as a regular user of the route, and one who's always experiencing delays caused by an unbroken 15 miles of single track attempting to support an hourly service, I wouldn't be in favour of a Newburgh reopening before the line is significantly upgraded. That done however, yes, the town should have a station.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Pretty sure it's been mentioned already in this thread - yes, it's a viable reopening. There's unmet demand, the station wouldn't cost much to reinstate and there is slack in the timetable to accommodate an additional stop.

However, if this statement from the Newburgh station campaign group about the post-December-2018 timetable is correct, you'd only be able to get a train every two hours, unless you do some upgrades to the line (as suggested by 47271). Might not make for that good a service:

It is envisaged that south of Perth Inverness trains will alternate between Glasgow and Edinburgh stopping only at Stirling or Kirkcaldy. However, there will be additional trains with only limited stops between Glasgow and Perth since there is a requirement for an hourly semi-fast service for Glasgow-Perth-Dundee-Arbroath, but Perth to Edinburgh may see one of the current Edinburgh-Ladybank-Perth trains replaced to accommodate the new Inverness to Edinburgh via Perth express timetable.

A replacement Edinburgh-Kirkcaldy-Markinch-Ladybank semi-fast service could be envisaged but cut short of the single track Ladybank-Newburgh section because Ladybank-Hilton Junction can only manage one train an hour in each direction.

The remaining semi-fast service on the Edinburgh-Perth route would be as now every two hours.

The whole Fife timetable as a consequence is likely to require re-planning.

Therefore, there is a possibility of trains serving Newburgh on this post December 2018 every two hours with the Edinburgh-Perth semi-fast service. Details will have to finessed to avoid clashes on the single line and delays to the Inverness expresses, but it can be confidently asserted that there is no structural timetabling reason that a call at Newburgh should not be added.

 

[Ginaro]

Looking at pictures like this: https://www.railscot.co.uk/img/10/37/ and https://www.railscot.co.uk/img/13/304/ - it seems like there's enough room to have the platform on a passing loop. And also enough space 1km away to the first bridge at: https://goo.gl/maps/jhxFkGNV4Zm for another line.

Could the line be double tracked towards the west at the same time, and how much double track would be needed to improve the line?

 

[47271]

However, if this statement from the Newburgh station campaign group about the post-December-2018 timetable is correct, you'd only be able to get a train every two hours, unless you do some upgrades to the line (as suggested by 47271). Might not make for that good a service:

'Details will have to finessed to avoid clashes on the single line'.

I'm sure details can be finessed for when everything's going to plan, but it's when disruption breaks out that Ladybank-Hilton becomes a major pain in the neck for anything travelling between Edinburgh and Perth.

The campaign would have more credibility if it recognised the need for infrastructure improvements ahead of any reopening, and not least a loop and a two platform station at Newburgh itself.

 

[InOban]

A two--platform station would cost several times as much because of the need for the infrastructure needed to provide disabled access. It should be possible, and desirable in any case, to raise the linespeed since the route isn't curvaceous. Of course a doubled section long enough to provide a dynamic loop alive would be evenn better, but that again multiplies the cost, turning a minor project into a major one. I think a single platform and a two-hourly service would establish the demand.

 

[najaB]

...you'd only be able to get a train every two hours, unless you do some upgrades to the line (as suggested by 47271). Might not make for that good a service:

There hasn't been a train in 50 years so one every two hours would be a heck of an improvement.

 

[Clansman]

Definitley a viable reopening, even if the prospect of an extra five minutes onboard a 158 between Perth and Ladybank isn't one to be openly embraced by us regulars!

 

[NotATrainspott]

The viability of a station at Newburgh depends on how well served it could be. I don't think 1tp2h would be good enough to justify the station when the alternative is to go down to Ladybank and have use of the Dundee trains too. It looks like it's yet another project which depends on/would strongly benefit from that general package of Fife rail improvements.

 

[najaB]

The viability of a station at Newburgh depends on how well served it could be. I don't think 1tp2h would be good enough to justify the station when the alternative is to go down to Ladybank and have use of the Dundee trains too.

As always though, having got in your car to drive to Ladybank why get out to catch the train when you can drive all the way to Edinburgh (or at least to Halbeath/Ferrytoll)?