Expansions for Scotland's rail network proposed

[backontrack]

@Altnabreac What about Perth-Inverness infrastructure improvements? And I'd also wonder about a station at Persley. Other than that, nice list.

 

[47271]

Would there be any merit in running a regular semi-fast "Dundee regional Metro" service from St.Andrews to Brechin, with stops at Leuchars Junction, St.Fort, Dundee, Broughty Ferry, Monifieth, Carnoustie, Arbroath, Montrose, Dubton and Bridge of Dun?

Brechin has come up before, and possibly in this thread. It's tempting because there's a station and (a bit of) track already, but the town, sorry city, has a population of only 7k. To be any real use the service would have to allow an easy commute to Aberdeen as well as Dundee, and that would mean a triangular junction at Kinnaber and a drop in frequency southwards.

Bear in mind that St Andrews reinstatement itself has no economic regeneration argument behind it and for that reason could be a long way off.

 

[gsnedders]

Brechin has come up before, and possibly in this thread. It's tempting because there's a station and (a bit of) track already, but the town, sorry city, has a population of only 7k. To be any real use the service would have to allow an easy commute to Aberdeen as well as Dundee, and that would mean a triangular junction at Kinnaber and a drop in frequency southwards.

Bear in mind that St Andrews reinstatement itself has no economic regeneration argument behind it and for that reason could be a long way off.

I imagine St Andrews also has way more traffic in and out of it than Brechin, far more so than being 3x the size suggests. But yeah, relative poor chances of economic development probably kill it.

 

[Altnabreac]

@Altnabreac I'm interested to find out why you've included Lossiemouth on your list. I wouldn't have thought that the population of Lossiemouth (c.7000) would have been sufficient to warrant the re-opening of the line. There's very little industry for freight, and the fishing is long gone. While from a purely nostalgic point of view I would love to see it happen, I can't really see much of a case for it. In its favour, most of the track bed is intact - a few buildings on an industrial estate would have to go, as would Burger King. The East Road level crossing would need to be re-instated as well, unless there was a completely new alignment.

Personally I don't think Lossiemouth has a good case at all but it was on a list a few years ago produced by railfuture.

If there was an hourly Elgin - Inverness service any way then extending to Lossiemouth would maybe have a poor / mediocre business case.

My point mainly being it would still be better than Hawick - Carlisle even though it isn't really a very good scheme.

 

[marks87]

Lossiemouth* does have the RAF base, which might be why it was on that list. But I think it's far too close to Elgin to justify a rail link at the expense of other more useful projects. I mean, at ~6 miles, Elgin station isn't that far away. Some cities served by a single station are >6 miles end-to-end.

*Sounds like a dog food; (c) Bernard Woolley

 

[GusB]

Lossiemouth* does have the RAF base, which might be why it was on that list. But I think it's far too close to Elgin to justify a rail link at the expense of other more useful projects. I mean, at ~6 miles, Elgin station isn't that far away. Some cities served by a single station are >6 miles end-to-end.

*Sounds like a dog food; (c) Bernard Woolley

Lossie also has a very good bus service - every 20 minutes during the day, and it's integrated with the Elgin town service, so it runs "roon the toon" (and passes the railway station).

 

[Clansman]

Personally I don't think Lossiemouth has a good case at all but it was on a list a few years ago produced by railfuture.

If there was an hourly Elgin - Inverness service any way then extending to Lossiemouth would maybe have a poor / mediocre business case.

My point mainly being it would still be better than Hawick - Carlisle even though it isn't really a very good scheme.

Can't say I disagree with anyone in your lists. But Bridge of Earn to St. Madoes? Crikey!

 

[Stan63]

If the reopening of the line to Bridge of Weir (possibly on to Kilmacolm) was being considered then you'd have to think of redoubling the Paisley Canal line to take some pressure off the line from Ayrshire into Glasgow.

Stan

 

[47271]

Can't say I disagree with anyone in your lists. But Bridge of Earn to St. Madoes? Crikey!

Isn't it a key part of the viability of a high speed Glenfarg route for Aberdeen trains? Otherwise you charge from Halbeath to Bridge of Earn, and then crawl into the Moncrieffe Tunnel, through Perth station and wind over the Tay? I don't think it's any more or less likely than Glenfarg itself, which isn't happening any time soon.

 

[Altnabreac]

Can't say I disagree with anyone in your lists. But Bridge of Earn to St. Madoes? Crikey!

Isn't it a key part of the viability of a high speed Glenfarg route for Aberdeen trains? Otherwise you charge from Halbeath to Bridge of Earn, and then crawl into the Moncrieffe Tunnel, through Perth station and wind over the Tay? I don't think it's any more or less likely than Glenfarg itself, which isn't happening any time soon.

Yes. I think it's challenging to make positive business cases for new lines in general but my view is that a new Perth line will only wash its face by improving Dundee and Aberdeen journey times as well. Hence a new link cross Tay to St Madoes is in my view as likely to happen as anything else north of Halbeath.

 

[Cantab26]

Bear in mind that St Andrews reinstatement itself has no economic regeneration argument behind it and for that reason could be a long way off.

For what it's worth, in my view the greatest likelihood of the St Andrew's branch being reinstated would be as part of a Dundee focussed regeneration project e.g. stopping trains serving Golf Street and what have you would need to be sent off somewhere to prevent them bunging up Dundee station, so in those circumstances running across the bridge and terminating in St Andrew's helps to deliver regeneration benefits elsewhere.

This seems to be far more likely than through trains from St Andrew's to Edinburgh.

Quite how the numbers stack up for such a 'Dundee crossrail' I couldn't really say, though.

 

[marks87]

I think Dundee has enough flexibility to cope with, say, an hourly terminator from the north.

You could either terminate in 1N, with any subsequent through service running to 1S; or terminate in 1S and reverse into the passing loop out of the way.

Or add even more flexibility by putting a scissor crossing to the freight loop half-way along P4 - something that would be significantly cheaper (even allowing for the resignalling required) than a whole new branch to St Andrews.

 

[route:oxford]

This seems to be far more likely than through trains from St Andrew's to Edinburgh.

I usually imagine a Glasgow to St Andrews service.

Glasgow, Stirling, Alloa, Dunfermline, Cupar, St Andrews.

 

[JohnR]

I think the St. Andrews re-opening case doesnt depend on regeneration, but it does tie into an economic strategy, because St. Andrews is a big destination.

 

[mcmad]

I usually imagine a Glasgow to St Andrews service.

Glasgow, Stirling, Alloa, Dunfermline, Cupar, St Andrews.

Wow.... I'd be a nice day out in the train but really?

It's already an hour GLQ to Alloa, say 30 minutes trundling along the coast to Dunfermline, 30 minutes to Thornton and another 30 minutes gets you to Leuchars. so a round 2 1/2 hours Glasgow to St Andrews? Not exactly commuting distance.

 

[gsnedders]

Wow.... I'd be a nice day out in the train but really?

It's already an hour GLQ to Alloa, say 30 minutes trundling along the coast to Dunfermline, 30 minutes to Thornton and another 30 minutes gets you to Leuchars. so a round 2 1/2 hours Glasgow to St Andrews? Not exactly commuting distance.

Same time as the X24 bus! (But could still be beaten by going via Dundee to Leuchars and on by bus!)

 

[Dryce]

If the reopening of the line to Bridge of Weir (possibly on to Kilmacolm) was being considered then you'd have to think of redoubling the Paisley Canal line to take some pressure off the line from Ayrshire into Glasgow.

Reinstating the route from Paisley Canal out to Elderslie might prove to be a bit problematic because bits of it have been lost. There is a housing development enclosing the old Paisley Canal station.

I would guess that any plans to reinstate the BoW (or Kilmacolm) branch would be based on reinstating the branch with a new junction at Elderslie and routing via PGS.

 

[Grinner]

I think you

Reinstating the route from Paisley Canal out to Elderslie might prove to be a bit problematic because bits of it have been lost. There is a housing development enclosing the old Paisley Canal station.

I would guess that any plans to reinstate the BoW (or Kilmacolm) branch would be based on reinstating the branch with a new junction at Elderslie and routing via PGS.

I reckon you could probably still squeeze a single line behind the houses at Paisley Canal (where the cycle path runs now) if coupled with cutting back the steep bank on the other side (which you would probably need to do anyway in order to fit some sort of retaining wall). But the times for a service via Paisley Canal would not be great, and a Bridge of Weir and Kilmacolm service would be competing against folk driving to the park and ride station at Johnstone, with its just over 15 minutes journey time to Central.

 

[Grinner]

The link below is to a call from Mark Ruskell MSP (Green) for Alloa Dunfermline re-opening to be funded via the Stirling and Clackmannshire City Deal.

http://www.alloaadvertiser.com/news...or_Alloa_Dunfermline_rail_link_study/?ref=rss

 

[och aye]

The link below is to a call from Mark Ruskell MSP (Green) for Alloa Dunfermline re-opening to be funded via the Stirling and Clackmannshire City Deal.

http://www.alloaadvertiser.com/news...or_Alloa_Dunfermline_rail_link_study/?ref=rss

Would there be much demand to also reinstate Clackmannan & Kincardine stations along this route?

 

[NotATrainspott]

I think you

I reckon you could probably still squeeze a single line behind the houses at Paisley Canal (where the cycle path runs now) if coupled with cutting back the steep bank on the other side (which you would probably need to do anyway in order to fit some sort of retaining wall). But the times for a service via Paisley Canal would not be great, and a Bridge of Weir and Kilmacolm service would be competing against folk driving to the park and ride station at Johnstone, with its just over 15 minutes journey time to Central.

There was demolition required on both Airdrie-Bathgate and the Borders Railway project. If there's a compelling reason to reopen the line, a few compulsory purchase orders can easily be done.

Would there be much demand to also reinstate Clackmannan & Kincardine stations along this route?

The line can't sustain a useful commuter service to Edinburgh. Any path over the bridge would be much better used to run more services on the Circle or towards Perth or Dundee. The STAG process would mean that a rail-connected bus option could be funded instead.

 

[Grinner]

The line can't sustain a useful commuter service to Edinburgh. Any path over the bridge would be much better used to run more services on the Circle or towards Perth or Dundee. The STAG process would mean that a rail-connected bus option could be funded instead.

The article mentions connections between central Scotland and West Fife, so I think this proposal may be thinking more of a standalone Stirling to Dunfermline service. I would certainly agree that it is unlikely to be a good use of paths across the bridge, but I can see some sense in Stirling to Dunfermline if it was an extension of Glasgow to Allow, opening up a possible commuter link to Glasgow.

Would there be much demand to also reinstate Clackmannan & Kincardine stations along this route?

I also think that the study would have to also identify the existence of demand from new stations on the route (e.g. Clackmannan & Kincardine) to be able to produce a viable business case.

 

[deltic08]

Now you are being

I think that we're going round in circles with this, and not for the first time.

Can I ask if there are any old routes that Deltic08 wouldn't reopen, that might help us narrow things down a bit, and maybe even get us to consider setting a budget for this massive infrastructure programme?

Now you are making yourself look ridiculous. Having to resort to statements like this proves your argument to not reinstate is inadequate.
I have a reasonably good track, ha, ha, record in campaigning. I was a founder member of the Dean Forest Railway, served on the committee that saved the Settle-Carlisle from closure in the 1980s and instigator of Hornbean Park station opening in Harrogate despite great opposition from Harrogate Chamber of Trade. What have you achieved with your negativity Mr 47271?
There are only two routes in Scotland where I have pressed repeatedly for reinstating on this site, the Glenfarg and Strathmore routes, with new build from Forfar to a point just south of Laurencekirk to make this a fast route between Perth and Aberdeen as alignment is favourable for 125mph on the reinstated section. The coastal route will never be as fast without spending more than would be needed to restore Strathmore.
When posters emphatically state that a route will never be reinstated, it makes me counter argue the case. The fact is we don't know without a full demand study and benefit/cost analysis. In recent history, demand forecasting has been grossly underestimated with Alloa, Airdrie-Bathgate, Larkfield, Laurencekirk and now Tweedbank and other parts of the UK. It has been a case of build it and they will come in their droves.
I would like to see new build between Tulloch and Newtonmore and surprised this hasn't been built already. Travel from Inverness to Fort William or Oban by rail, passenger or freight, has to be via Glasgow. Now that is ridiculous.
The many Doubting Thomas's on here makes me even more determined to get on with restoring more miles of track.

 

[InOban]

Building a direct railway between Perth and Aberdeen bypassing Dundee makes no business sense. I am astonished that anyone would seriously propose it. If I venture on to deltic08's home turf, can I remind him that XC trains between York and Sheffield all run via either Leeds or Doncaster, rather than, as they once did, direct through Pontefract. And indeed those from Scotland normally run via Leeds, adding 20 min to the journey. Why? Because the route exists to carry real passengers making real journeys. At least he realises that it would need a new formation after Forfar, since I think the A90 occupies the original.

 

[47271]

Now you are being


Now you are making yourself look ridiculous. Having to resort to statements like this proves your argument to not reinstate is inadequate.
I have a reasonably good track, ha, ha, record in campaigning. I was a founder member of the Dean Forest Railway, served on the committee that saved the Settle-Carlisle from closure in the 1980s and instigator of Hornbean Park station opening in Harrogate despite great opposition from Harrogate Chamber of Trade. What have you achieved with your negativity Mr 47271?
There are only two routes in Scotland where I have pressed repeatedly for reinstating on this site, the Glenfarg and Strathmore routes, with new build from Forfar to a point just south of Laurencekirk to make this a fast route between Perth and Aberdeen as alignment is favourable for 125mph on the reinstated section. The coastal route will never be as fast without spending more than would be needed to restore Strathmore.
When posters emphatically state that a route will never be reinstated, it makes me counter argue the case. The fact is we don't know without a full demand study and benefit/cost analysis. In recent history, demand forecasting has been grossly underestimated with Alloa, Airdrie-Bathgate, Larkfield, Laurencekirk and now Tweedbank and other parts of the UK. It has been a case of build it and they will come in their droves.
I would like to see new build between Tulloch and Newtonmore and surprised this hasn't been built already. Travel from Inverness to Fort William or Oban by rail, passenger or freight, has to be via Glasgow. Now that is ridiculous.
The many Doubting Thomas's on here makes me even more determined to get on with restoring more miles of track.

It was a genuine question which lines wouldn't get reinstated under Project Deltic. I don't think any of us knew, which is why Altnabreac ran through a list of plausible projects.

Now that we know that it's just Glenfarg and Strathmore in our sights, and not Waverley end to end, then we're getting somewhere.

As a few of some recent posts, mine included, have outlined, there's far more support on here for a high speed route from Halbeath to Bridge of Earn, and crucially on to St Madoes, than there is for Strathmore. In fact I'd be interested if anyone on this thread is opposed in principle to Glenfarg. Where the money's going to come from is another matter.

In the light of finite resources, and again this is a genuine question, would you rather wait 20 years to restore Glenfarg, because that's how long it'll take, or wait 3-5 to get Ladybank-Hilton close to intercity standards at a fraction of the cost? Or we desperately need three new crossing loops on the Highland Main Line to adequately cope with the expanded HST service on its way now, but all we're getting is tiny signalling tweaks at Pitlochry and Aviemore, would you rather build a new line out to Fort William via Laggan than see these smaller incremental gains on the existing main route?

I think what you perceive as negativity from us is actually realism - many of us have a pretty good idea of how much cash is likely to be available for Scottish rail infrastructure over the next 10-20 years and wish to ensure that this investment is used proportionately, wisely and strategically to benefit the maximum number of the population.

Glenfarg yes, Strathmore no, Hawick-Carlisle no, Laggan no.

 

[Altnabreac]

Now you are being


Now you are making yourself look ridiculous. Having to resort to statements like this proves your argument to not reinstate is inadequate.
I have a reasonably good track, ha, ha, record in campaigning. I was a founder member of the Dean Forest Railway, served on the committee that saved the Settle-Carlisle from closure in the 1980s and instigator of Hornbean Park station opening in Harrogate despite great opposition from Harrogate Chamber of Trade. What have you achieved with your negativity Mr 47271?
There are only two routes in Scotland where I have pressed repeatedly for reinstating on this site, the Glenfarg and Strathmore routes, with new build from Forfar to a point just south of Laurencekirk to make this a fast route between Perth and Aberdeen as alignment is favourable for 125mph on the reinstated section. The coastal route will never be as fast without spending more than would be needed to restore Strathmore.
When posters emphatically state that a route will never be reinstated, it makes me counter argue the case. The fact is we don't know without a full demand study and benefit/cost analysis. In recent history, demand forecasting has been grossly underestimated with Alloa, Airdrie-Bathgate, Larkfield, Laurencekirk and now Tweedbank and other parts of the UK. It has been a case of build it and they will come in their droves.
I would like to see new build between Tulloch and Newtonmore and surprised this hasn't been built already. Travel from Inverness to Fort William or Oban by rail, passenger or freight, has to be via Glasgow. Now that is ridiculous.
The many Doubting Thomas's on here makes me even more determined to get on with restoring more miles of track.

But I have given you a whole list of schemes actually proposed by Scottish Government, Transport Scotland, local councils, Transform Scotland, Railfuture, SAPT and local campaign groups.

Some, like Levenmouth or Winchburgh have excellent business cases, some like Reston or Tweedbank - Hawick, weaker business cases but regeneration potential. Some improve cross border speed and capacity, some link the major cities of Scotland together faster.

But you are saying you would ignore every single one of those schemes if you held the purse strings and instead invest the Transport budget just on two schemes, one of which is a slow, windy built on alignment at Glenfarg and another lengthy, multi hundred million pound route that will actively make services worse for Scotland's fourth city while only providing an improvement for Glasgow - Aberdeen services.

I'm afraid I find it difficult to take your suggestions seriously because they appear to be purely based in nostalgia for the past, rather than any sane or sensible look at future demand or economic development potential.

 

[InOban]

Hear, hear. I think we should look at Altnabreac's comprehensive list, consider the likely level of investment capital available, and ask ourselves which projects are deliverable at reasonable cost and within other constraints such as line capacity. For example, assuming Dalcross and Kintore are going ahead anyway, my next choice would be Newburgh, since a platform on a single track cannot, even at NR costs, be expensive, and it can easily be served by the Perth terminators. On the other hand, East Linton and Reston may be much more desirable, but there are serious issues with timetabling stopping trains on the ECML.

 

[PaulLothian]

Building a direct railway between Perth and Aberdeen bypassing Dundee makes no business sense. I am astonished that anyone would seriously propose it.

I have to agree, with a slight sense of disappointment - it would be a splendid route, only suffering from a few problems, such as chunks of missing or re-used track bed, a route that misses out one of Scotland's main cities, managing to miss all but a couple of the Strathmore towns, and not providing the transport links that would help the locals most by giving them access to Dundee or improving links between rural communities.

 

[InOban]

Absolutely. What all these towns along the old route need are better links to Dundee.

 

[clc]

The STPR sets out realistic potential improvements for Aberdeen to Glasgow and Edinburgh:-

Recasting of the passenger timetable on the Aberdeen – Dundee – Edinburgh / Glasgow corridors to provide express and stopping services:
• Providing one express train per hour to Glasgow (21⁄4 hour journey time);
• Providing one express train per hour to Edinburgh (2 hour journey time); and
• No stops at intermediate settlements (except Dundee) for express services.
(There would also be time savings for Fife-Edinburgh services via Kirkcaldy.)

Phase 1 would include line speed improvements, additional loops to allow passing of freight trains and upgraded signalling along the entire length of the line to reduce headway times.
Phase 2 would involve the removal of the single track at Usan, including a new bridge over Montrose Basin.

Freight improvements:
• Provision of bi-directional signalling to reduce the impact of engineering works (permitting the route to remain open for freight throughout the day and week);
• Increased length of freight loops (allowing longer freight trains); and
• Removal of speed limits that are below 75mph for freight trains.

Cost:
Phase 1: £100m - £250m,
Phase 2: £100m - £250m
Freight improvements £50m - £100m

https://www.transport.gov.scot/media/23621/j10194a-a2d18.pdf

I wonder what more could be done to get Glasgow-Aberdeen down to the 2 hour mark if there was another few hundred million to spend (without bypassing Dundee)?