Wheelchair-bound peer couldn't board after driver refused to request pushchair moved

[Busaholic]

Obviously a driver simply not bothering is a completely different kettle of fish but I wouldn't for one minute suggest everything was perfect in LT days.

Neither was I, nor attempting to do so, but each driver got proper training in what was expected of them as a LT driver and not just as someone who possessed a bit of paper saying they were allowed to drive a bus. It may yet happen again, but I'm not holding my breath.

 

[matt_world2004]

Neither was I, nor attempting to do so, but each driver got proper training in what was expected of them as a LT driver and not just as someone who possessed a bit of paper saying they were allowed to drive a bus. It may yet happen again, but I'm not holding my breath.

TfL are developing a bus driving diploma (Or NVQ-I cant remember which) Which will focus on the non driving elements of bus driving.

Quite. The average wheelchair user is probably denied boarding on many occasions because the driver doesn't want to stop for them as they're running late and have themselves been put under pressure from their controller, or because the individual driver has a bad attitude. In the days when all London buses were owned and run by London Transport you had a more uniform approach to the job of driving, in pre-OPO days, but you still got incidents of bad practice, usually because a 'crew' of driver and conductor conspired together to do as little useful work as possible and leave it to others. This happened especially on routes where two garages shared operation, and certain garages were notorious e.g. Hanwell and Dalston, while others seemed to manage to split up the bad crews and got a good reputation e.g. Norwood and Harrow Weald. This carried on right up to privatisation and could be said to have even had an influence on the creation of the bus units which preceded privatisation.

Privatisation didn't stop what you describe, Ibus Did - and the comprehensive on board bus monitoring software that came with it.

 

[Busaholic]

TfL are developing a bus driving diploma (Or NVQ-I cant remember which) Which will focus on the non driving elements of bus driving.

Glad to read they're adopting one of my original proposals when joining this forum.

 

[Busaholic]

Privatisation didn't stop what you describe, Ibus Did - and the comprehensive on board bus monitoring software that came with it.

No, you misunderstood my point. I wasn't trying to suggest that privatisation, which on the whole I'm against (though it has some good points), stopped it. I was only focussing on LT because my critic was doing so.

 

[martian boy]

I've been reading through this thread, and it's interesting being a bus driver myself working in the south Wales valleys. Unfortunately, there are a few pigheaded wheelchair users. I have received abuse from one or two wheelchair users. With this ruling, it has gone to some of their heads. There is one user, always accompanied with spouse, has openly admitted they will do all they can to get the driver sacked if a person with buggy or pram refuses to move, and the driver does not make them. Fortunately it has not come to anybody refusing.

I've been driving and overheard many conversations. Whilst most will move or fold buggy/pram, some have said they will point blankly refuse. One said they would refuse has they have paid for their journey, whilst the wheelchair user travels free. This is technically correct. The wheelchair user has a free disabled pass. They don't pay, the local authority (council) reimburses the company.

Another person with a pram, wanted to board the bus, but was refused has there was already a wheelchair on. "Can't the wheelchair get off? (sic) was reply to the driver who refused entry. The next bus was fifteen minutes away, so no big problem.

I don't think we've heard the end of this, regardless of the court case ruling. It is only a matter of time when a woman with a buggy/pram is forced off the bus, not by the driver, but other passengers. Living in the south Wales valleys, many drivers are seen off duty on their rest days. It will only be a matter of time when the husband/boyfriend/brother of the woman identifies the driver, and then attacks him. I hope the Judges who ruled in this case, will be quick enough to hand out severe prison terms in these cases. Somehow I think not.

I for one, dread seeing a wheelchair user at a bus stop when there are people with buggies/prams on the bus.

Some wheelchair users want equal rights, but to be more equal than others. Fortunately, most wheelchair users are fine and understanding.

 

[AnonymousUser1]

I<snip>
Some wheelchair users want equal rights, but to be more equal than others. Fortunately, most wheelchair users are fine and understanding.

I strongly suggest you go away and read the equality act

then you can come back and apologise for your hate speech

 

[Bletchleyite]

I was on a busy bus yesterday with two prams on, one in the wheelchair bit, one in the other bit, and lots of standees. A wheelchair user boarded, and everyone reshuffled without having to be asked (both prams into the other bit, they went in just) to give them the space to which they are entitled, and the bus proceeded without delay.

This is how it should happen, and anyone who thinks otherwise is just a bit of a fool in my book.

 

[WelshBluebird]

Another person with a pram, wanted to board the bus, but was refused has there was already a wheelchair on. "Can't the wheelchair get off? (sic) was reply to the driver who refused entry.

So how exactly is that any better than a wheelchair user who wants someone with a pram to get off the service? At least the people with prams have more of a choice in how they travel!

 

[Mojo]

So how exactly is that any better than a wheelchair user who wants someone with a pram to get off the service? At least the people with prams have more of a choice in how they travel!

Because the reason a big empty space, and legally mandated access, is provided on buses and trains is to enable customers in wheelchairs and with other disabilities to travel with ease. It is just a side effect of that provision that makes it easier for people with prams and bulky luggage to travel and use it in the majority of cases where there is not a wheelchair user on board. However on a small number of occasions the facilities might be needed for their intended purpose.

As you rightly say, people with prams have a choice about what they do, how to travel, and the option is there to fold up the pram into the luggage space and carry the baby, move to another space on the bus where there is room, find another way of travelling, hire a babysitter, or whatever, whereas a wheelchair user might not have this option.

 

[NorthernSpirit]

I strongly suggest you go away and read the equality act then you can come back and apologise for your hate speech

I cannot see any hate speech in what martian boy has said. None whatsoever.

One thing I will agree with is that it won't be long until people start fighting over a space, OK some services are frequent - others aren't and if something similar was to kick off on a less frequent service (e.g. hourly or less) then I can imagine seeing the police being called to calm the situation down.

 

[daikilo]

I cannot see any hate speech in what martian boy has said. None whatsoever.

One thing I will agree with is that it won't be long until people start fighting over a space, OK some services are frequent - others aren't and if something similar was to kick off on a less frequent service (e.g. hourly or less) then I can imagine seeing the police being called to calm the situation down.

I recently retired and shortly afterward twisted my right knee damaging ligaments. I have always stood for other deserving passengers and always will

 

[Busaholic]

Because the reason a big empty space, and legally mandated access, is provided on buses and trains is to enable customers in wheelchairs and with other disabilities to travel with ease. It is just a side effect of that provision that makes it easier for people with prams and bulky luggage to travel and use it in the majority of cases where there is not a wheelchair user on board. However on a small number of occasions the facilities might be needed for their intended purpose.

As you rightly say, people with prams have a choice about what they do, how to travel, and the option is there to fold up the pram into the luggage space and carry the baby, move to another space on the bus where there is room, find another way of travelling, hire a babysitter, or whatever, whereas a wheelchair user might not have this option.

Being an old f"rt now, when I was in the position of being prammed around buses had conductors and, certainly in London, the idea of taking a pram onto a bus was a complete no-no. My parents had no car (most people didn't) and so any journey by public transport had to be thought out and essential: I'm glad that parents with small children now are better able to use buses, but they must be prepared to be less self-obsessed should a wheelchair user present themselves and just move, if necessary, without argument or comment.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

One thing that bus drivers have to keep in mind is the number of standees allowed which drops when a wheelchair is aboard. If there are too many standees then it doesn't matter who or what is in the wheelchair space, the wheelchair user won't be allowed to board

 

[Busaholic]

One thing that bus drivers have to keep in mind is the number of standees allowed which drops when a wheelchair is aboard. If there are too many standees then it doesn't matter who or what is in the wheelchair space, the wheelchair user won't be allowed to board

I'm intrigued as to how the number of standees is assessed, given each bus has a very precise number allowed, and given that in many areas the driver is not allowed to leave the cab. Certainly in London some drivers will sail past stops with many seats vacant upstairs and very few standing downstairs, while others will continue to allow people to pile on until it's almost impossible to close the doors. CCTV would only provide a rough estimate.

 

[Bletchleyite]

On most modern buses (other than oddities like lightweight electric ones) the standee number is a crush-load.

 

[Antman]

I strongly suggest you go away and read the equality act

then you can come back and apologise for your hate speech

Hate speech? Drama queen or what?:roll:

 

[Antman]

I've been reading through this thread, and it's interesting being a bus driver myself working in the south Wales valleys. Unfortunately, there are a few pigheaded wheelchair users. I have received abuse from one or two wheelchair users. With this ruling, it has gone to some of their heads. There is one user, always accompanied with spouse, has openly admitted they will do all they can to get the driver sacked if a person with buggy or pram refuses to move, and the driver does not make them. Fortunately it has not come to anybody refusing.

I've been driving and overheard many conversations. Whilst most will move or fold buggy/pram, some have said they will point blankly refuse. One said they would refuse has they have paid for their journey, whilst the wheelchair user travels free. This is technically correct. The wheelchair user has a free disabled pass. They don't pay, the local authority (council) reimburses the company.

Another person with a pram, wanted to board the bus, but was refused has there was already a wheelchair on. "Can't the wheelchair get off? (sic) was reply to the driver who refused entry. The next bus was fifteen minutes away, so no big problem.

I don't think we've heard the end of this, regardless of the court case ruling. It is only a matter of time when a woman with a buggy/pram is forced off the bus, not by the driver, but other passengers. Living in the south Wales valleys, many drivers are seen off duty on their rest days. It will only be a matter of time when the husband/boyfriend/brother of the woman identifies the driver, and then attacks him. I hope the Judges who ruled in this case, will be quick enough to hand out severe prison terms in these cases. Somehow I think not.

I for one, dread seeing a wheelchair user at a bus stop when there are people with buggies/prams on the bus.

Some wheelchair users want equal rights, but to be more equal than others. Fortunately, most wheelchair users are fine and understanding.

Excellent posting, as you say most wheelchair users are perfectly reasonable people but there is a significant minority who are just hell bent on causing conflict.

Judges in this case should be required to spend a few days travelling on buses to see the issues for themselves.

 

[Antman]

Being an old f"rt now, when I was in the position of being prammed around buses had conductors and, certainly in London, the idea of taking a pram onto a bus was a complete no-no. My parents had no car (most people didn't) and so any journey by public transport had to be thought out and essential: I'm glad that parents with small children now are better able to use buses, but they must be prepared to be less self-obsessed should a wheelchair user present themselves and just move, if necessary, without argument or comment.

Nobody is 'self obsessed' if they are unable to move to accommodate a wheelchair that's it. You can argue until the cows come home but you can't fit square pegs into round holes.

 

[Wolfie]

Nobody is 'self obsessed' if they are unable to move to accommodate a wheelchair that's it. You can argue until the cows come home but you can't fit square pegs into round holes.

"Unable" to move as in there is absolutely nowhere else to go - perhaps ok. Unable as in unwilling to fold a pushchair, sorry but that breaks the byelaws in London so the driver is obliged to sort it out.

Judges in this case should be required to spend a few days travelling on buses to see the issues for themselves.

The role of a judge is to apply the law. If you have an issue with the law lobby politicians who are the ones who pass those laws. In the meantime if things continue don't be too surprised if one of more bus company finds itself in contempt of Court due to the inactions of it's drivers. Believe me if and when the MD personally is summoned to Court action will follow (I work for Govt and while I was in one post the SofS was threatened with jail for contempt of Court....).

If drivers don't follow instructions they will rapidly become ex-drivers.

Excellent posting, as you say most wheelchair users are perfectly reasonable people but there is a significant minority who are just hell bent on causing conflict.

If you mean wishing to use the facility on buses that was legally mandated to be provided for their use then absolutely. If bone-idle drivers don't wish to obey the law because they can be bothered doing part of the job they are paid for then they can soon lose their licenses (I wouldn't be at all surprised if legislation to that effect is contemplated by DfT if the current situation continues).

 

[Bletchleyite]

Nobody is 'self obsessed' if they are unable to move to accommodate a wheelchair that's it. You can argue until the cows come home but you can't fit square pegs into round holes.

The only time they would be unable to move would be when the bus was crush loaded. In that case nobody can board, wheelchair or not.

At all other times it is possible to fold a pram or move to another area of the bus.

 

[Antman]

The only time they would be unable to move would be when the bus was crush loaded. In that case nobody can board, wheelchair or not.

At all other times it is possible to fold a pram or move to another area of the bus.

I don't see much point in going over all this again, it is not always possible to fold a buggy.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I don't see much point in going over all this again, it is not always possible to fold a buggy.

There are almost no buggies on the market which do not fold; nobody would buy one because they need to fold to go in cars. Therefore it is near always possible to fold a buggy. It might be inconvenient, of course, but that is not the point.

When did you last see a classic Silver Cross on a bus?

 

[Antman]

"Unable" to move as in there is absolutely nowhere else to go - perhaps ok. Unable as in unwilling to fold a pushchair, sorry but that breaks the byelaws in London so the driver is obliged to sort it out.


The role of a judge is to apply the law. If you have an issue with the law lobby politicians who are the ones who pass those laws. In the meantime if things continue don't be too surprised if one of more bus company finds itself in contempt of Court due to the inactions of it's drivers. Believe me if and when the MD personally is summoned to Court action will follow (I work for Govt and while I was in one post the SofS was threatened with jail for contempt of Court....).

If drivers don't follow instructions they will rapidly become ex-drivers.


If you mean wishing to use the facility on buses that was legally mandated to be provided for their use then absolutely. If bone-idle drivers don't wish to obey the law because they can be bothered doing part of the job they are paid for then they can soon lose their licenses (I wouldn't be at all surprised if legislation to that effect is contemplated by DfT if the current situation continues).

What a load of rubbish, bone idle drivers? I mean what exactly is a driver supposed to do? And how many have become ex drivers? Is it any wonder so many operators are struggling to recruit drivers?

 

[Bletchleyite]

What a load of rubbish, bone idle drivers? And how many have become ex drivers? Is it any wonder so many operators are struggling to recruit drivers?

If they paid more, they'd get them more easily.

 

[martian boy]

I strongly suggest you go away and read the equality act

then you can come back and apologise for your hate speech

I will not apologise for my so called hate speech. It is not a hate speech, but I'm giving you a fact. There are some real pigheaded wheelchair users out there. One in particular ended up being visited by a council official over their attitude on the way they travelled on the bus. Swearing at drivers after leaving the bus after being informed the wheelchair should not be facing the forward direction of travel. The user insisting they had a right to, regardless of safety. The wheelchair user only changed their ways when threatened with the confiscation/cancelation of their free travel pass.


Has for drivers being sacked over wheelchair space....

The person(s) with pram refuses to budge. The bus is switched off, they still refuse. The depot is informed....an inspector arrives....they still refuse. The other passengers back the person(s) with the pram....the police are called. The police arrive....still they will not move. By now everybody on the bus is late....the bus may be cancelled. The other passengers still back the person(s) with the pram. The driver cannot physically move anybody...that's assault. So the driver is now sacked?.....

 

[Wolfie]

What a load of rubbish, bone idle drivers? I mean what exactly is a driver supposed to do? And how many have become ex drivers? Is it any wonder so many operators are struggling to recruit drivers?

I love the smug complacency implicit in that comment. Do you really think that the Govt and the Courts are going to humour lazy unmotivated drivers ignoring legislation and clear Court rulings? Get real! Either bus companies will start getting hit with serious fines for non-compliance or retention of driver's licences will become conditional on complying with legislation....

 

[Antman]

I love the smug complacency implicit in that comment. Do you really think that the Govt and the Courts are going to humour lazy unmotivated drivers ignoring legislation and clear Court rulings? Get real! Either bus companies will start getting hit with serious fines for non-compliance or retention of driver's licences will become conditional on complying with legislation....

Smug complacency? It's called being realistic!

Just your usual ranting and raving really, nothing constructive

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

If they paid more, they'd get them more easily.

Yes, and there is upward pressure on drivers' wages. The issue is where this comes from... passengers paying more to enable this, and the local authorities will increase the ENCTS remuneration too?

 

[Busaholic]

I don't see much point in going over all this again, it is not always possible to fold a buggy.

Fold the kids instead

 

[Antman]

Fold the kids instead

Fold the kids?

I assume you mean the buggy? We've been over that already.