New South Western franchise: Awarded to First/MTR

[GodAtum]

Would not surprise me if SWR stopped at Macon Heights with the rubbish ideas these planners have!

 

[3141]

Yes, that's true, but I do think the major flows (Exeter, Yeovil, etc) should get more through services for air pax.

Looks like your response will balance mine.

It's a good example of the unavoidable compromises. People from west of Salisbury also want a quicker journey to Waterloo.

Having now looked at table 158, I see that in the future you'll be doing exactly what I have to do now to get to Gatwick: get off at Basingstoke, wait on the same platform for six minutes for a fast train to Clapham Junction.

But the journey planner sometimes comes up with an alternative, which is to change at Woking and then Guildford for the North Downs line. I've done that once, but I don't like it because it's an additional stage where something might go wrong. Might be worth doing coming back, though, because if the GWR train was cancelled from Gatwick there are plenty of trains to Clapham
Junction instead.

 

[gavin]

Southwestern railway passengers are believed to have got off a delayed train this morning and walked along the tracks forcing the power to be switched off

@SW_Help #DisruptionSWR **NEW** Due to customers exiting the train before it is at a platform at Wimbledon all lines are blocked.

https://twitter.com/SW_Help/status/914756458016854017

 

[HarleyDavidson]

Southwestern railway passengers are believed to have got off a delayed train this morning and walked along the tracks forcing the power to be switched off

@SW_Help #DisruptionSWR **NEW** Due to customers exiting the train before it is at a platform at Wimbledon all lines are blocked.

https://twitter.com/SW_Help/status/914756458016854017

Arrest and charge the lot of them, make sure that their employers or if they are students educational institution is made aware of the circumstances of their arrest and charges.

Hit them hard in the pocket too and they soon learn to leave egresses alone and when it gets back to the rest of them what happens for misuse of the egresses, it may well stop this sort of behaviour.

 

[Monty]

Arrest and charge the lot of them, make sure that their employers or if they are students educational institution is made aware of the circumstances of their arrest and charges.

Hit them hard in the pocket too and they soon learn to leave egresses alone and when it gets back to the rest of them what happens for misuse of the egresses, it may well stop this sort of behaviour.

Keep dreaming, got as about chance as having a hot date with Scarlett Johansson.

 

[HarleyDavidson]

Keep dreaming, got as about chance as having a hot date with Scarlett Johansson.

I know, but it's the only way to make the sods learn and behave. Name shame and hit 'em hard.

 

[fairysdad]

The thing I'm finding is that even though I know that nothing has really changed yet between Stagecoach and First running things, and that it's the same staff, the same trains... I'm beginning to wonder how there has been a monumental downgrade in service since First took over. I was willing to give them the benefit of the doubt, but a month in and it surely can't *all* be not First's fault.

I must admit, I've personally been quite fortunate in that I've not been affected too much with the problems that have cropped up, mostly because of my working patterns at the moment, but even so, it's not been plain sailing. (And I feel fortunate this morning as it seems as if the train that was problematic at Wimbledon was the one I would have caught if I was on a normal 9-5 shift today!

 

[pompeyfan]

To be fair a lot of the issues are related to NR of similar incidents outside the TOCs control, I don’t think it’s fair to wholly blame First, recovery seems slower though under the new regime, even though it’s still the same train service managers etc. Perhaps it’s just rose tinted glasses shining through again.

 

[fairysdad]

To be fair a lot of the issues are related to NR of similar incidents outside the TOCs control, I don’t think it’s fair to wholly blame First, recovery seems slower though under the new regime, even though it’s still the same train service managers etc. Perhaps it’s just rose tinted glasses shining through again.

That's kind of the point I'm making - I know that the issues are related to Network Rail and not South Western Railway. But I am beginning to wonder now if it's not too much of a coincidence that these problems have occurred and been more problematic since the franchise handover.

 

[bb21]

The thing I'm finding is that even though I know that nothing has really changed yet between Stagecoach and First running things, and that it's the same staff, the same trains... I'm beginning to wonder how there has been a monumental downgrade in service since First took over. I was willing to give them the benefit of the doubt, but a month in and it surely can't *all* be not First's fault.

You probably need to ask NR that.

Some of the mistakes made by their sub-contractors are quite eye-opening.

I have some sympathy with the poor commuters. If your train were repeatedly delayed, making you late for work on a regular basis and risking disciplinary actions, you would probably be quite frustrated, and upon hearing another "track circuit failure" which could potentially strand you for another 30 minutes on the train, you would probably be quite tempted to get on your way via whatever means possible.

This was always coming giving the absolutely abysmal performances of late on the route.

It is stupid to detrain themselves, risking injury to themselves and others around them, but nowhere near as stupid as some of the monumental mistakes by NR's sub-contractors of late.

 

[SWT_USER]

Is anything being done about the almost daily chronic infrastructure failures on the SWML? Seems to have been a lot worse since the Waterloo works in August.

 

[embers25]

As expected the Clapham Junction call has been swapped over from the Exeters to the Salisbury locals, interestingly it looks like the Woking call on Exeter* services is pick-up only

Looks like I will need to remember it will be XX:55 from Waterloo rather than XX:50, and seems a bit odd there is a couple long distance services calling at Whitchurch only. I'm happy with the shift of the 22:20 to become the 22:55 & the 23:40 becoming the 23:55.

----

Interesting with the Waterloo service shifting from XX:59 to XX:05, hence allowing the use of Network Railcards from the 10:05 service. New named train as well "The Sarum Express", the 08:47 Salisbury to Waterloo, with an additional 08:53 service which will make my life easier as normally that service is busy as it comes up from Exeter, I can remember a few times it was F&S after Andover on the days when SWT had the £14 day returns promotions.

An odd 07:39 Southampton - Yeovil Pen Mill service as well.

Pinhoe to Woking and Guildford in peak becomes a lot more of a pain with two changes adding 20 mins to both..Also the 0650 now requires a Salisbury change and takes so much longer that the 0735 pretty much gets to Woking to same time, all for a stupid headline fast train that more often than not will be late and stuck behind the stopper meaning delays for all. Pompey line is just a joke and guaranteed to go belly up and all timetables appear to have had all resilience sucked out of them and so we are left with GWR style timetabling where everything always runs just behind time at best. I appreciate what they have tried to do but they have right royally screwed it up and also made massive assumptions that other TOC's will adjust their schedules to fit around them.

 

[nw1]

You probably need to ask NR that.

Some of the mistakes made by their sub-contractors are quite eye-opening.

I have some sympathy with the poor commuters. If your train were repeatedly delayed, making you late for work on a regular basis and risking disciplinary actions, you would probably be quite frustrated, and upon hearing another "track circuit failure" which could potentially strand you for another 30 minutes on the train, you would probably be quite tempted to get on your way via whatever means possible.

Maybe employers need to be a bit more tolerant if people are late for things which are out of their control, such as train delays. Fair enough allowing a bit of time, say 30 mins, for delays - but if your employer is having a go at you even if you do allow some time, something's wrong. Should people have to be at the office an hour before they're due to allow for train delays?

Maybe a more laid-back attitude, where there's less blame involved by all parties (commuters towards the railway, employers towards commuters) and everyone would be happier all round. Delays are annoying, yes - but a more tolerant approach to delays by employers would mitigate the situation.

This is not advocating doing something stupid like de-training and walking along a track, by the way. That's patently a blatantly stupid thing to do.
Nor is it advocating trivialising those delays that can be avoided by better planning by the railway.

 

[samuelmorris]

SWR Customer service phone line queues are now up to 40 minutes, does anyone know how this compares to other operators? TfL may have an absolutely abhorrent delay refund policy but in fairness they do usually answer within 5-10 minutes, often less. A month into my query, I now have an escalation which could take up to 20 days, whoopee!

The refund process has long since cost me more than I will actually earn back in real money, but it's just a matter of principle at this point. This is the sort of thing that needs not to carry on for the rest of the franchise.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

What's the general consensus on the proposed timetables by SWR drivers and guards?

 

[HowardGWR]

It's a good example of the unavoidable compromises. People from west of Salisbury also want a quicker journey to Waterloo.

Having now looked at table 158, I see that in the future you'll be doing exactly what I have to do now to get to Gatwick: get off at Basingstoke, wait on the same platform for six minutes for a fast train to Clapham Junction.

But the journey planner sometimes comes up with an alternative, which is to change at Woking and then Guildford for the North Downs line. I've done that once, but I don't like it because it's an additional stage where something might go wrong. Might be worth doing coming back, though, because if the GWR train was cancelled from Gatwick there are plenty of trains to Clapham
Junction instead.

During a disrupted journey to Gatwick, we tried to do that (via Guildford), but the ticket stated via Clapham Junction, so I had to wait for that one. It got me wondering whether a bus service to Gatwick (as for Heathrow) might not be a better service. Both you and I could then have just one change.

The real need IMO, is a decent interchange at Farnborough to the GWR service to Gatwick.

 

[HarleyDavidson]

During a disrupted journey to Gatwick, we tried to do that (via Guildford), but the ticket stated via Clapham Junction, so I had to wait for that one. It got me wondering whether a bus service to Gatwick (as for Heathrow) might not be a better service. Both you and I could then have just one change.

The real need IMO, is a decent interchange at Farnborough to the GWR service to Gatwick.

If there's disruption if you can ask nicely you'll generally find that you can get ticket acceptance via an alternative route. If there's disruption in the London area, especially beyond Surbiton or Wimbledon, you often get ticket acceptance with other operators.

If you can keep your cool & produce airline tickets with time on them, you may be able to get a bit more leverage and get them accepted via Guildford.

 

[The Ham]

During a disrupted journey to Gatwick, we tried to do that (via Guildford), but the ticket stated via Clapham Junction, so I had to wait for that one. It got me wondering whether a bus service to Gatwick (as for Heathrow) might not be a better service. Both you and I could then have just one change.

The real need IMO, is a decent interchange at Farnborough to the GWR service to Gatwick.

The problem with Farnborough is that there's not an easy way to fix the problem with interchanging between the three lines that run closer to each other.

If you build an interchange station how do you serve it? Would it be an additional stop or would or be an alternative location. Neither is ideal.

Another option would be to build a new West facing grade separated junction to allow Ascot - Basingstoke services. Then with a new station at Farnborough Gate on the Reading - Gatwick line it would make the interchange much easier (still a few hundred metres walk though from Frimley station to the new station). However it could bring lots of other benefits (including a way to divert around Woking for engineering works and better connections to London from Camberley and Frimley). However that would likely cost £100 million (probably more) so hardly cheap.

Even just a new access and gateline to allow direct access from platform 1 to the road bridge would make a difference (it would also help with the hundreds of people trying to get out of the station from each train of a morning, and to a lesser extent in the evening).

The mostly likely thing to happen would be the provision of the Southern Approach to Heathrow providing 2tph from Farnborough (ideally also Hook, Winchfield, Fleet and Brookwood as well) so add to limit the need for people to travel to Gatwick as Heathrow would have a good connection (especially as from Woking it would be 4tph). Of course people would still want to go to Gatwick, but at least there would be an easy route to Heathrow making that more attractive.

Personally I would, if possible, opt for Southampton Airport add it is very convenient for the station and you don't have the long walks to your plane that you often have at Gatwick. However that's not always an option depending on where your going.

 

[HarleyDavidson]

Isn't Southampton more of a "regional" airport than a long haul one?

I think that the nearest long haul airport for the WoE line will vary from where you are, in that it could be Bristol for one end or Heathrow for the Salisbury end.

It was pointed out recently that if you're prepared to do some travelling & an overnight stay, you can save yourself £100s on the cost of a holiday, so instead of travelling from either Heathrow or Gatwick, go from one of the provincial airports such as Birmingham, Newcastle or even Glasgow and the savings outweigh the cost of travel to them & any overnight stays.

 

[wastedlife]

Isn't Southampton more of a "regional" airport than a long haul one?

You'd be doing well to get anything long haul off a runway that isn't even 6000 feet long. SOU is pretty much puddle jumpers and turbo props, might get the odd Embraer jet...

 

[FenMan]

The problem with Farnborough is that there's not an easy way to fix the problem with interchanging between the three lines that run closer to each other.

If you build an interchange station how do you serve it? Would it be an additional stop or would or be an alternative location. Neither is ideal.

A station in Farnborough at the intersection of the North Downs and South West Main lines would be in a residential area miles from anywhere. There wouldn't be any room to build it anyway unless a considerable number of private dwellings were flattened.

And to make the North Downs and Ascot-Aldershot lines intersect would be extremely expensive for very little benefit. Far easier for the good citizens of Camberley to make their own way two miles west to Blackwater (which is what they do today).

 

[greaterwest]

The problem with Farnborough is that there's not an easy way to fix the problem with interchanging between the three lines that run closer to each other.

If you build an interchange station how do you serve it? Would it be an additional stop or would or be an alternative location. Neither is ideal.

Another option would be to build a new West facing grade separated junction to allow Ascot - Basingstoke services. Then with a new station at Farnborough Gate on the Reading - Gatwick line it would make the interchange much easier (still a few hundred metres walk though from Frimley station to the new station). However it could bring lots of other benefits (including a way to divert around Woking for engineering works and better connections to London from Camberley and Frimley). However that would likely cost £100 million (probably more) so hardly cheap.

Even just a new access and gateline to allow direct access from platform 1 to the road bridge would make a difference (it would also help with the hundreds of people trying to get out of the station from each train of a morning, and to a lesser extent in the evening).

The mostly likely thing to happen would be the provision of the Southern Approach to Heathrow providing 2tph from Farnborough (ideally also Hook, Winchfield, Fleet and Brookwood as well) so add to limit the need for people to travel to Gatwick as Heathrow would have a good connection (especially as from Woking it would be 4tph). Of course people would still want to go to Gatwick, but at least there would be an easy route to Heathrow making that more attractive.

Personally I would, if possible, opt for Southampton Airport add it is very convenient for the station and you don't have the long walks to your plane that you often have at Gatwick. However that's not always an option depending on where your going.

Wasn't the idea of building Farnborough Gate suggested a few years back?

Direct access from platform 1 to the road bridge is unlikely to ever happen (not cost effective to build or man such a gateline/entrance, for the sake of the 5 minute walk around the corner?) You then have the issue of adding new ticketing facilities (do you then add an up-side ticket office of some sort, how many TVMs, etc?)

The only thing that would benefit Farnborough is perhaps building a west facing curve where the Sturt Road curve once was, it would appear there's at least the free land to do so. I believe HarleyDavidson has, in the past, outlined the issues with that (conflicting movements across the mainline). It would allow for diversions & western access to Heathrow, assuming the scheme goes ahead to access it via Staines/Wraysbury.

A "Farnborough Interchange" on the NDL/SWML intersection would never be able to happen because you'd be demolishing several private structures on Rectory Avenue, and you'd also be extremely close to the A331 and therefore have short platforms on the mainline (you're also rendering Farnborough North station essentially useless, as it's only a few hundred metres up the line)

As also identified up this thread, you're building in the middle of nowhere essentially, and local residents aren't going to want commuter traffic day-in-day-out, nor does the A331 need clogging up with traffic any more than it already is.

 

[pompeyfan]

You'd be doing well to get anything long haul off a runway that isn't even 6000 feet long. SOU is pretty much puddle jumpers and turbo props, might get the odd Embraer jet...

We’re getting off topic here but SOU also now sees regular A319/A320s to the Spanish islands and also EasyJet to Geneva this winter. There’s also plans to extend the runway towards the current Arriva Depot at Eastleigh.

 

[Goldfish62]

You probably need to ask NR that.

Some of the mistakes made by their sub-contractors are quite eye-opening.

I have some sympathy with the poor commuters. If your train were repeatedly delayed, making you late for work on a regular basis and risking disciplinary actions, you would probably be quite frustrated, and upon hearing another "track circuit failure" which could potentially strand you for another 30 minutes on the train, you would probably be quite tempted to get on your way via whatever means possible.

This was always coming giving the absolutely abysmal performances of late on the route.

It is stupid to detrain themselves, risking injury to themselves and others around them, but nowhere near as stupid as some of the monumental mistakes by NR's sub-contractors of late.

I have no time for voluntary detraining, however in this case they probably thought the risk was worth it when faced with the possibility of being blown up by a nutter. If this person really was a terrorist with a bomb would people still insist that those who detrained should be arrested and charged?

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Isn't Southampton more of a "regional" airport than a long haul one?

I think that the nearest long haul airport for the WoE line will vary from where you are, in that it could be Bristol for one end or Heathrow for the Salisbury end.

It was pointed out recently that if you're prepared to do some travelling & an overnight stay, you can save yourself £100s on the cost of a holiday, so instead of travelling from either Heathrow or Gatwick, go from one of the provincial airports such as Birmingham, Newcastle or even Glasgow and the savings outweigh the cost of travel to them & any overnight stays.

Going by runway length, Bournemouth could be classed as more "long haul" than Southampton as it has had Concorde take off and land at it in the past.

Alton-Waterloo, is that definitely 1 service or is it actually two separate services?

 

[gavin]

What is it with points failures at Waterloo over the past few months? another one this morning means platform 1 will be closed all day

 

[HarleyDavidson]

It seems that NR bought a job job of dodgy gear from Delboy and Rodney for use at Waterloo. Everyday it's the same.

I can understand why commuters are getting peed off.

 

[Bill Badger]

A station in Farnborough at the intersection of the North Downs and South West Main lines would be in a residential area miles from anywhere. There wouldn't be any room to build it anyway unless a considerable number of private dwellings were flattened.

Gulp... think I need to declare an interest. Touch and go whether I would have a station next door or be looking for a new home!!

 

[SpacePhoenix]

It seems that NR bought a job job of dodgy gear from Delboy and Rodney for use at Waterloo. Everyday it's the same.

I can understand why commuters are getting peed off.

Is there any commonality as to what component(s) of the points keep malfunctioning/failing?

 

[HowardGWR]

Gulp... think I need to declare an interest. Touch and go whether I would have a station next door or be looking for a new home!!

How about a bus shuttle between the main and north stations BB? Yeovil has one between the two stations and this is very useful as it also goes via the town centre. Do you have an existing local Farnborough bus service that could be so adapted?

I'm extending this discussion so that I can put any useful info in my response to SWR. HD's suggestion about going via Salisbury and Southampton via the southern Horsham route is a good one and relieves the SWML and Clapham to boot, but they just don't encourage people to go via various routes by a wooden fare structure. If you live in Honiton or Dorchester, you don't give a fig about the route to Gatwick with cases, you want the same advance fare offers and minimum or ease of changes.

I am considering the use of car (on M3 and M25 groan :cry and parking fees. This is a big market (you just have to notice pax detraining at CLJ with cases) and SWR need to encourage it.