ScotRail HST Introduction - Updates & Discussion

[Bletchleyite]

I'm not clear what the seating layout of the HSTs has to do with tourists. It's a mixed airline and table layout basically similar to the 76 seat BR layout, is it not?

 

[47802]

Well even if it was done for the tourists, what's the problem with that? isn't Tourism is important to the Scottish economy anyway?

 

[JohnR]

well i could just take you to the pub near my mums house. Very Braveheart/SNP......................

EDIT - it is worth pointing out that the more sensible commentators are very pleased to have proper intercity trains back working in Scotland and think that the 125 will be a step up on the current little trains used on routes like Glasgow to Inverness

Yes indeed. The bumping of gums by some SNP supporters and even councillors in my area about "40 year old cast-offs from England" is just as loud as those from people who are using it to knock the SNP.

Lets remember that the SNP didnt force selection of HSTs - I believe Nat Express offered brand new trains, but Abellio won on cost (probably because at the time they priced it, a refurbished HST was cheaper than new build). What the SNP will be responsible for is decisions made about the services these trains will run (eg missing out stations currently served by long distance trains) and lack of facilities (eg Bike spaces).

 

[NotATrainspott]

Yes indeed. The bumping of gums by some SNP supporters and even councillors in my area about "40 year old cast-offs from England" is just as loud as those from people who are using it to knock the SNP.

Lets remember that the SNP didnt force selection of HSTs - I believe Nat Express offered brand new trains, but Abellio won on cost (probably because at the time they priced it, a refurbished HST was cheaper than new build). What the SNP will be responsible for is decisions made about the services these trains will run (eg missing out stations currently served by long distance trains) and lack of facilities (eg Bike spaces).

It was reported at the time that National Express actually were cheaper. Abellio were a close second, but they had the highest quality score of any bidder. Because the franchise ITT had explained how quality would be taken into account when scoring, it was totally acceptable for Transport Scotland to award the contract to a less cheap option.

I imagine that NX were proposing the same Mk5A+68 combination that TPE are using. It might be one of the reasons why TPE are introducing those sets in the first place, as CAF wouldn't have been starting the design from scratch for FirstGroup. Maybe First had also planned a CAF fleet for ScotRail?

 

[Highland37]

What the SNP will be responsible for is decisions made about the services these trains will run (eg missing out stations currently served by long distance trains) and lack of facilities (eg Bike spaces).

Totally agree with you and hope you will welcome the improvements we are about to see. The decisions made by the SNP are good ones. More trains, more services and faster. It could have been more 170s...

 

[JohnR]

Totally agree with you and hope you will welcome the improvements we are about to see. The decisions made by the SNP are good ones. More trains, more services and faster. It could have been more 170s...

I welcome the decision to provide much better rolling stock for long-distance services.

I will defer judgement on the internal facilities and the timetables once we have seen them - but express concern that ScotRail, Transport Scotland and the Scottish Government seem reluctant to answer questions about them - and do not seem to want to consult passengers about them.

 

[Northhighland]

Is that possible? The continual digs from various people, who seem to need it themselves, mean politics and real politics play a significant part.

All thus guff about trouser suited Jimmy Krankie etc, sectarianism, SNP signed off X, etc is just guff from people who can't abide the SNP, particularly that they have out performed every other party in Scotland.

Imagine Ruth and her merry band of nationalists were in charge. Think you would get anything like the investment in rail? Nae chance.

The "central belt gets all the money" argument is also not supported by the facts. There are many areas in the central belt that have a greater need for investment (outside rail) than the Highlands.

This post and others you make illustrate the problem with every political issue in Scotland. Everything is viewed through the prism of nationalism. Truth here is the SNP have been on power for 10 years, and like most governments that long in the tooth the things that haven't gone well are piling up. Perfectly normal cycle of politics. Where we are different here is the divide means that the SNP support are blindly trying to put a gloss and a saltire on absolutely everything, dissent is not tolerated and criticism not welcomed. SNP is akin to a cult. Divisions the last 10 years have created will take another 10 to disappear.

The HST's will work, they are inherently good trains and will improve the situation. The 170's were always a poor choice for the highland mainline, comfortable enough but noisy and cramped for 3 and bit hour journeys. There is without doubt an issue around 40 year old trains and is a weakness in the new arrangement, both from a service point of view and politically.

Also Transport Scotland struggled to find extra money for new trains as the EGIP project is way over budget and late, final bill still not certain. So this was an opportune quick fix.

 

[Clansman]

This post and others you make illustrate the problem with every political issue in Scotland. Everything is viewed through the prism of nationalism. Truth here is the SNP have been on power for 10 years, and like most governments that long in the tooth the things that haven't gone well are piling up. Perfectly normal cycle of politics. Where we are different here is the divide means that the SNP support are blindly trying to put a gloss and a saltire on absolutely everything, dissent is not tolerated and criticism not welcomed. SNP is akin to a cult. Divisions the last 10 years have created will take another 10 to disappear.

Who are you to say how every SNP supporter perceives things, just because you don't agree with them? Pretty narrow minded. I'm no fan of the other parties, but for goodness sake no matter which one of them delivered these improvements I'd credit them all the same for taking the time to invest in them.

At the end of the day, the SNP are in government, they've made the greatest improvements to rail than any party in Scotland, and many users like myself recognise this and are reaping the rewards in choosing them to represent us.
And because of this, my local commute will now be in a nice comfy HST as of next year, whilst thousands of others will have brand spanking new stock.

What is your issue exactly in relation to rail in Scotland? And please do not go off on some other tangent of political ranting against people you disagree with because it's simply narrow minded and irrelevant.

 

[Railsigns]

At the end of the day, the SNP are in government, they've made the greatest improvements to rail than any party in Scotland

That is demonstrably untrue.

The previous Lab/Lib coalition in Holyrood legislated for:
- Reopening Stirling-Alloa line
- Reopening line to Larkhall
- Reopening Airdrie-Bathgate
- Reopening Borders Line to Tweedbank
- Glasgow Airport Rail Link
- Edinburgh Airport Raik Link
- Edinburgh Trams

How many new lines or reopenings has the SNP passed legislation for? Hee-haw is how many. Their track record is one of cancelling major rail projects (i.e. the two airport links listed above).

 

[Clansman]

That is demonstrably untrue.

The previous Lab/Lib coalition in Holyrood legislated for:
- Reopening Stirling-Alloa line
- Reopening line to Larkhall
- Reopening Airdrie-Bathgate
- Reopening Borders Line to Tweedbank
- Glasgow Airport Rail Link
- Edinburgh Airport Raik Link
- Edinburgh Trams

How many new lines or reopenings has the SNP passed legislation for? Hee-haw is how many. Their track record is one of cancelling major rail projects (i.e. the two airport links listed above).

Like I said, I have no grudges against anyone who makes changes for the better so fair play to each set of governments for investing in the railway up here.

Glad to see the trend continue and long may it...

 

[Blindtraveler]

Perhaps its time for a breakaway thread to discuss Scottish politics in relation to railways?

 

[najaB]

Perhaps its time for a breakaway thread to discuss Scottish politics in relation to railways?

+1 for that suggestion.

 

[DarloRich]

+1 for that suggestion.

motion carried.

 

[jingsmonty]

This post and others you make illustrate the problem with every political issue in Scotland. Everything is viewed through the prism of nationalism. Truth here is the SNP have been on power for 10 years, and like most governments that long in the tooth the things that haven't gone well are piling up. Perfectly normal cycle of politics. Where we are different here is the divide means that the SNP support are blindly trying to put a gloss and a saltire on absolutely everything, dissent is not tolerated and criticism not welcomed. SNP is akin to a cult. Divisions the last 10 years have created will take another 10 to disappear.

The HST's will work, they are inherently good trains and will improve the situation. The 170's were always a poor choice for the highland mainline, comfortable enough but noisy and cramped for 3 and bit hour journeys. There is without doubt an issue around 40 year old trains and is a weakness in the new arrangement, both from a service point of view and politically.

Also Transport Scotland struggled to find extra money for new trains as the EGIP project is way over budget and late, final bill still not certain. So this was an opportune quick fix.

Good point about HSTs, but thought we were keeping politics out of this thread - having an 'SNP bad' rant hardly qualifies!

 

[najaB]

Good point about HSTs, but thought we were keeping politics out of this thread - having an 'SNP bad' rant hardly qualifies!

Agreed. Take the politics here: Discussion of SNP and transport policy.

 

[NotATrainspott]

Also Transport Scotland struggled to find extra money for new trains as the EGIP project is way over budget and late, final bill still not certain. So this was an opportune quick fix.

It's very easy to come out with statements which have a very, very loose connection to reality. Transport Scotland did not order the HSTs. It put in the ScotRail ITT that it wanted high-quality InterCity stock, and the various bidders each came up with their own solution. Abellio won, and their HST strategy became reality. Transport Scotland (and hence, the Scottish Government and SNP politicians) had basically no decisions to make about it. They fund the ScotRail franchise, but they aren't paying item-by-item. When National Express were cheaper and were planning new stock, you can't say that the decision to use HSTs was forced by the need to be as cheap as possible either.

 

[Highland37]

Perhaps its time for a breakaway thread to discuss Scottish politics in relation to railways?

Agreed. Maybe if those against the SNP stopped mentioning them on such a regular basis it might happen. Someone even mentioned the trams as demonstration of what they did. Hard to take seriously.

 

[ainsworth74]

As above please use this thread for the political discussion. This thread is for discussion of the introduction of HSTs to Scotrail not for discussing whether the SNP are the spawn of Satan or protector of puppies and kittens.

Many thanks!

 

[jingsmonty]

As above please use this thread for the political discussion. This thread is for discussion of the introduction of HSTs to Scotrail not for discussing whether the SNP are the spawn of Satan or protector of puppies and kittens.

Many thanks!

Thanks for that - lets keep politics out of the thread about HSTs

 

[Highland37]

I am at a conference in Aviemore tomorrow. 200 delegates apparently.

If the hst refurbs are as good as they look, they will attract more to the area which an excellent spin off from rhe railway.

 

[jingsmonty]

I am at a conference in Aviemore tomorrow. 200 delegates apparently.

If the hst refurbs are as good as they look, they will attract more to the area which an excellent spin off from rhe railway.

I'll reserve judgement until I actually see one in the flesh - haven't heard a thing about their introduction on trains to/from Inverness as yet..

 

[Clansman]

I'll reserve judgement until I actually see one in the flesh - haven't heard a thing about their introduction on trains to/from Inverness as yet..

Not due on Inverness services until December next year, so quite a while to wait yet.

 

[Northhighland]

Not due on Inverness services until December next year, so quite a while to wait yet.

Dont suppose Scotrail would have had the foresight to use the 170's freed up when the HST's start in Aberdeen to extend the Inverness train capacity?

Been down to Edinburgh last week train was rammed and am currently on the 16:41 out of Queen street and it is rammed. Doesn't stop until Perth so looks like a lot will be standing to Perth. Regular occurrence I think should be banned. Isn't safe and is ridiculous to charge someone and not give them a seat.

 

[Clansman]

Dont suppose Scotrail would have had the foresight to use the 170's freed up when the HST's start in Aberdeen to extend the Inverness train capacity?

Been down to Edinburgh last week train was rammed and am currently on the 16:41 out of Queen street and it is rammed. Doesn't stop until Perth so looks like a lot will be standing to Perth. Regular occurrence I think should be banned. Isn't safe and is ridiculous to charge someone and not give them a seat.

Inverness services have always been a disgrace. Nothing worse than pulling out of Queen Street or Waverley and seeing stabled DMUs along the way at Haymarket, Eastfield, Stirling, and Perth, knowing full well that even a 158 on the back of a 170 as far as Perth would do wonders for these services. It's not like this practice is unique, given that it happens with the odd Aberdeen service now and again.

 

[scotraildriver]

Dont suppose Scotrail would have had the foresight to use the 170's freed up when the HST's start in Aberdeen to extend the Inverness train capacity?

Been down to Edinburgh last week train was rammed and am currently on the 16:41 out of Queen street and it is rammed. Doesn't stop until Perth so looks like a lot will be standing to Perth. Regular occurrence I think should be banned. Isn't safe and is ridiculous to charge someone and not give them a seat.

Book a seat?

 

[Marklund]

Book a seat?

Turn up and go railway?
Tight turn-rounds and reservations cancelled?
Suburban units on Inter-City services?

Nah, blame the passenger...

 

[najaB]

Regular occurrence I think should be banned. Isn't safe and is ridiculous to charge someone and not give them a seat.

*Citation needed.

 

[route:oxford]

Inverness services have always been a disgrace. Nothing worse than pulling out of Queen Street or Waverley and seeing stabled DMUs along the way at Haymarket, Eastfield, Stirling, and Perth, knowing full well that even a 158 on the back of a 170 as far as Perth would do wonders for these services. It's not like this practice is unique, given that it happens with the odd Aberdeen service now and again.

The 16:41 is an Aberdeen service. It is used to connect with the Highland Chieftain at Perth for services onward to Inverness though.

The Aberdeen, Inverness & what used to be the Elgin train services have been full to standing leaving Glasgow from 16:00 onwards from BR through National Express through First and now Abelio.

Nothing has really changed that much*

*Although the carpeted luggage locker of the 158s were more comfortable to sit on than the current luggage racks, and everything is more comfortable than a 101 pressed into service on an Aberdeen run.

 

[Northhighland]

Book a seat?

Do so every time. Call me old fashioned but I will not sit and watch someone less able stand very uncomfortably for over an hour.

However no-one should be standing. Not allowed on a Glasgow to Perth bus so why should it be allowed on a train?

 

[Northhighland]

Turn up and go railway?
Tight turn-rounds and reservations cancelled?
Suburban units on Inter-City services?

Nah, blame the passenger...

Legendary Scotrail customer service. Only beaten by BT.