ScotRail HST Introduction - Updates & Discussion

[Mag_seven]

Planned cascade list resorted in numerical order (reading down each column in turn):

43003 43124 43138 43151
43012 43125 43139 43152
43015 43126 43140 43163
43021 43127 43142 43164
43026 43128 43142 43168
43028 43129 43143 43169
43030 43130 43144 43175
43031 43131 43145 43176
43032 43132 43146 43177
43033 43133 43147 43179
43034 43134 43148 43181
43035 43135 43149 43182
43036 43136 43150 43183
43037 43137

I hope they keep these numbers and don't get renumbered as Class43/4 for example.

 

[Northhighland]

There is some negativity, but not the the HST, they are and will be a success they are much better than the 170's. The negativity is towards the decision to buy new trains for Edinburgh to Glasgow and hire 40 year old ones for the North. Journey time Edinburgh / Glasgow 40 mins, journey time Edinburgh to Glasgow to Inverness or Aberdeen 3 plus hours.

that is the frustration.

 

[47271]

Just on the liveries. Given that there's almost universal agreement that Turbostars aren't up to the job on the Scotrail inter city routes, and those same trains are all in Saltire livery now, does it not make perfect sense in branding terms to totally differentiate the offer provided as an inter city one?

If it had been the other way round then there would've been a load of people on here complaining that the nationalists are forcing Saltires onto everything, it looks so flat and dowdy etc etc.

As far as I'm concerned the purpose of a train livery is to catch the eye of prospective passengers and make them think that they'd do well, or better than before, if they take the train. Surely this is exactly what's been done here?

I still have a bee in my bonnet that the power cars should have yellow applied horizontally in exactly the same way as in the original 1970s design, giving an impression of sleekness and speed, but that's just me!

 

[43096]

Apologies if already posted somewhere else, but not seen it. RAIL have this morning published the list of power cars planned to be cascaded from GWR to Scotrail, quoting Angel Trains as the source.

http://www.railmagazine.com/news/fleet/hst-cascade-plan-for-scotrail

Already posted on this very forum (by, IIRC, Clansman) before Rail printed anything.

 

[TimboM]

Already posted on this very forum (by, IIRC, Clansman) before Rail printed anything.

It was dave87016 in post #671 ...found it now.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Trains are like houses, not cars. Who cares if they are 40 years old if they are fitted with modern kit?

 

[Highland37]

They won't have plug doors - the new doors for the ScotRail HSTs - and those remaining with GWR and XC past the end of 2019 - are sliding pocket doors.

I agree. Class 68 and coaches would be good.

 

[Altnabreac]

Well everybody seems to be going into orgasm about these trains but lets see what the refurb is like and how well they work in practice, when I travel on an HST these yes they are more comfortable than most newer stock in many ways but I see a clapped old train that's past its use by date whatever the refurbishment inside, then there is the re engineering of the doors, re engineering of old trains seems to be having mixed results of late. I guess the fact that there are 2 power cars should help and the engines are only mid life but I doubt they will last 20 years as some people suggest and the next franchise will more than likely need to look for a replacement which going to be a very heavy loading with the majority of Scotrail's Sprinters coming up for renewal as well.

As an aside I have always found Scotrail 170's reasonably comfortable but just lacking in capacity in some cases while the benefit of replacing 15+ year old trains with 40+ year old ones remains to be seen.

The Brief for Franchise bidders was to provide stock on the Intercity routes that had:
Better acceleration;
No direct access from outside to the saloon without secondary doors;
More comfortable interior;

It had to be diesel and it had to last until the end of the Franchise.

I think most of us (including Transport Scotland) expected bidders to propose Voyagers or 180s or similar. TS specifically put some clauses in about sorting out toilet smell problems which seemed to suggest Voyagers were on the cards.

So the HST plan was a bit leftfield but actually it fulfills the brief. They don't need to last 20 years (though it would be good if they could squeeze more than the minimum 7 years out of them.

If they are reliable, fast and comfortable then they'll have done the job.

So long as the rolling programme of electrification continues as it has been then sprinter replacement is dealt with via new EMUs. East Kilbride, Kilmarnock, Maryhill and Barassie electrification and you could virtually be rid of the 156s by the end of the Franchise period in 2025.

The challenge for HSTs is whether they can last long enough to allow electrification to have reached northwards so they can be replaced by EMUs in 2030 or so. It seems to me unlikely that Inverness will be wired before HSTs are obsolete so some sort of Bi-Mode replacement may be needed for at least some of the HSTs.

The only pure DMU stock Scotrail will be buying in future will be the scenic stock requirement for the next Franchise from 2030 or so.

 

[marks87]

On the branding, do we think ScotRail will carry things beyond simply having a different livery, and have a completely new brand for HST-operated services, a la Chiltern with Mainline?

So if the branding were ScotRail InterCity: services announced as such (The next train at platform 1 is the 18.45 ScotRail InterCity service to Edinburgh Waverley); highlighted in timetables (IC: ScotRail InterCity service with xyz on-board facilities); and generally promoted and advertised almost as if it were a separate franchise.

 

[47802]

The Brief for Franchise bidders was to provide stock on the Intercity routes that had:
Better acceleration;
No direct access from outside to the saloon without secondary doors;
More comfortable interior;

It had to be diesel and it had to last until the end of the Franchise.

I think most of us (including Transport Scotland) expected bidders to propose Voyagers or 180s or similar. TS specifically put some clauses in about sorting out toilet smell problems which seemed to suggest Voyagers were on the cards.

So the HST plan was a bit leftfield but actually it fulfills the brief. They don't need to last 20 years (though it would be good if they could squeeze more than the minimum 7 years out of them.

If they are reliable, fast and comfortable then they'll have done the job.

So long as the rolling programme of electrification continues as it has been then sprinter replacement is dealt with via new EMUs. East Kilbride, Kilmarnock, Maryhill and Barassie electrification and you could virtually be rid of the 156s by the end of the Franchise period in 2025.

The challenge for HSTs is whether they can last long enough to allow electrification to have reached northwards so they can be replaced by EMUs in 2030 or so. It seems to me unlikely that Inverness will be wired before HSTs are obsolete so some sort of Bi-Mode replacement may be needed for at least some of the HSTs.

The only pure DMU stock Scotrail will be buying in future will be the scenic stock requirement for the next Franchise from 2030 or so.

Personally I think your assumptions are a tad optimistic regarding electrification and all the 15x is likely to need replacing by the next franchise and certainly wont all be electrified that's for sure, and I wouldn't put money on Aberdeen being reached before the HST's need replacing never mind Inverness.

 

[jopsuk]

On the branding, do we think ScotRail will carry things beyond simply having a different livery, and have a completely new brand for HST-operated services, a la Chiltern with Mainline?

So if the branding were ScotRail InterCity: services announced as such (The next train at platform 1 is the 18.45 ScotRail InterCity service to Edinburgh Waverley); highlighted in timetables (IC: ScotRail InterCity service with xyz on-board facilities); and generally promoted and advertised almost as if it were a separate franchise.

I seem to remember there being much at the franchise award about the "Seven Cities"?

 

[Blindtraveler]

I can well see there being a City Connect or 7 citys express type brand used for these services although hope they dont as it will only serve them look rather silly when an HST goes bang and a gutless cattletruck 170 steps in instead.

 

[jingsmonty]

I went from Glasgow to Inverness on a 170 once. After 3 hours of engine drone and vibration I said id never do it again and I haven't. Driving is preferable to making the journey on a 170 but HST might tempt me out of my car.

Apart from the doors being in the wrong place, lack of capacity, lack of power &, basically, being used on long distance routes for which they weren't designed, I don't mind 170s - find them more comfortable than any grammer fitted 158 (or even a vtec hst) to travel in.
Have never been bothered by underfloor engines, I even enjoyed travelling on a 180 adelante a few years ago...
I will reserve judgement on Scotrail HST until I actually travel in one - looking forward to the driver training though - and, yes, it would be a terrible idea to let passengers travel on a driver training train! Possible issues with legality too (safety case, etc)

 

[jingsmonty]

A Hitachi variant, like whats been ordered by GW for the non-electrified routes into Cornwall, would be a good HST replacement, if it had enough installed power - being bimode, could get the benefit of running under the wires. In fact, I'm almost suprised that an add on order for these wasn't chosen over HST. The fuel cost of HST will be horrendous (offset by very low leasing charges though)-heard a quote of 800% increase over 158s/170s!

 

[signallerscot]

On the branding, do we think ScotRail will carry things beyond simply having a different livery, and have a completely new brand for HST-operated services, a la Chiltern with Mainline?

I don't know about that but there is a rumour going round locally that drivers passed out on HSTs will be issued with a new jacket...

 

[Blindtraveler]

Theres no doubt the HST will be thirsty, more so on the HML, will the price of ticket go up substantially to cover it wonder? In the airy fary world enhabbited by TS/Scottish Govd and to an extent Scotrail only tourists travel on our trains so its maybe thought they will pritty much pay anything for the privallage

 

[XCTurbostar]

The first set has now begun driver training - it now includes 'A new era' branding with 'We're building the best railway Scotland's ever had'

https://www.flickr.com/photos/maccookie/37139592865/in/photolist-YzU832-YzU7ut-Yaqizq-XHiBho-Yaq9GW-Y3Jsh7-Y3SWyA-X3MJp1-X5qpmF-Y3NmvE-Yj5zf8-X5BCZv-X3MXMc-X2QvgC-Y5eese-Xrjoqq-WUeUPR-XFHezb-XJEJp7-XgUm81-XTQNk8-WqzGCV-Wosrxm-XcH3qU-XrUUhx-XEetSK-XzYDrQ-X42Kyo-XE4GMc-XzYERU-XzYFnU-XzYD3U-Xpne35-XzYGp3-XzYFdf-XA9L4Y-XzYDKW-XE4Ghp-XzYEv3-WqzHjp-XE2Cav-XpargC-XrSZUt-WqxztP-WqxApB-Wofyij-WqxyD2-WofyH7-XrSVdV-WqxxKZ

Thanks,
Ross

 

[Bletchleyite]

You couldn't make an HST look bad if you tried, could you?

A real British engineering success.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Point of order...170s were designed for the services they operate. Their launch customer was MML for semifast long distance services, almost identical to what they do in Scotland.

 

[xotGD]

So the first set isn't carrying '40 year old English cast-off' branding. How disappointing.

 

[43096]

You couldn't make an HST look bad if you tried, could you?

FGW had a good go at it with their internal refurbishment....

 

[Emblematic]

Figures from back in 2007 give the following consumptions, averaged over the fleets and from hundreds of thousands of km running. All in l per 100 seat-km:
Class 170 - 0.81
Class 180 - 0.98
Class 220/221 - 1.20
Class 222 - 0.98
HST - 0.85
Now this is an apples and oranges comparison, different train lengths running conditions, speeds and so forth. It's also true that the shortened HSTs will have worse consumption figures than the full sets, although it's not clear that the original report was looking at MTU engined HSTs or the thirstier Valentas (reportedly 20% difference.)
The takeaway is that all of these figures are broadly similar and that difference in the fuel costs will swamped in the overall costs of running the railway - track access charges for example are particularly unfavourable for short-formed HSTs. Source RSSB Traction Energy Metrics report.

 

[Bletchleyite]

FGW had a good go at it with their internal refurbishment....

If they hadn't had a dentist's surgery designer do the lighting, I actually like it. Better than IC70s.

Warm white, spots and indirect lighting are what you want for a quality atmosphere. Take a look at the ICE, which is in my view the highest quality feeling train in Europe even if, in terms of the actual seats, window alignment etc, it's not actually anything special.

(I must admit I think the "leather" headrests are a really good idea by the way - not only do they look classy, but they avoid the seats being sticky and allow the bit that gets muckiest to be kept clean)

 

[Highland37]

The HST looks great there. Superb design, and popular. I am sure it will lead to growth in passengers.

 

[route:oxford]

I don't know about that but there is a rumour going round locally that drivers passed out on HSTs will be issued with a new jacket...

Sounds like industrial action in the making...

 

[route:oxford]

The first set has now begun driver training - it now includes 'A new era' branding with 'We're building the best railway Scotland's ever had'

That's simply not true though is it?

Nothing much is being built and you still can't get to Lossiemouth, Callander, St Andrew's, Kinross, Methil, Crieff, Peebles and many others by train.

 

[route101]

I very much doubt it! I note your sarcasm in your comment. This digital image will have been done by a graphic designer that most likely doesn't know a thing about trains - especially their headlights!

There seems to be alot of negativity on this forum surrounding Scotrails choice of refurbished HSTs. Yes they are old trains, but it's a very cost effective way of quickly upgrading their intercity services and will be much welcomed by staff and passengers alike. They'll be gone by 2030 and replaced with new build stock that will be better than any Voyager that some people reckon they should have went for.

I think the HSTs will be a success for Scotrail and I'm rather gutted I will not get to drive them. Maybe we'll get some nice new DMUs for the GSW/Stranraer routes in the next franchise to replace the awful 156s.

Think we will see the 156s on the GSW for a long while yet i suspect EK too .

 

[route101]

There's a lot of airline seats in that standard class view which is at odds with the seating layouts we've seen so far.

Which i prefer when travelling alone .

 

[route101]

Should have also added, I seriously think the HST introduction will encourage a lot more people to take the train. There is a lot of business travel between Edinburgh / Glasgow and Inverness, I know a lot of people who take the car because of their perception of poor quality trains, regular overcrowding and the reliability. The reliability has improved, the HST could temp many more back to the train. Might need an extra coach or two.

Agree i think they should be 6 or 7 cars at least . Intercity length

 

[Altnabreac]

Personally I think your assumptions are a tad optimistic regarding electrification and all the 15x is likely to need replacing by the next franchise and certainly wont all be electrified that's for sure, and I wouldn't put money on Aberdeen being reached before the HST's need replacing never mind Inverness.

The electrification northwards is the big unknown but I'm confident Scotrail won't buy any new DMUs except scenic stock and hybrids.

Assuming the next franchise runs something like 2025 - 2035 we can be sure that at least East Kilbride, Maryhill, Barrhead and Kilmarnock are electrified.

A new scenic DMU order would cover WHL, Kyle, Far North, Stranraer and Dumfries.

170s will be good until at least 2035, probably 2040 and there are enough of them to cover Borders, Fife Circle, Levenmouth, Edinburgh - Dundee / Perth.

So you don't need any 156s or 158s at that point. The big question is replacing HSTs with EMUs or bi-modes or a bit of both.

That depends on how long HSTs last, how fast wires head north and how well bi-Modes work. But it's inconceivable that the HST replacements would be DMUs.