London area Track gradient heights

[DoctorApple]

From the people that play Train Simulator (By DTG) I am sure you know the Route London to Brighton...
I have started another route; around the general London area. I own Gradients of the British Mainline Railways, by Ian Allan.
A lot of great routes, except for some lines that are missing; and yes I know the book is base around the 1960s.

Anyway question is: (sorry about that) I cannot seem to find gradient heights for London Waterloo to Reading, Clapham Junction to Willesden Junction, Guildford to Surbiton, Alton area and Chessington area.

I have tried looking online again. I must of not done well, as I don't know any good train info sites.

 

[superalbs]

Have you tried the Freedom of Information system, I know it has worked for a friend in the past, the government may well have the information at the ready.

 

[John Webb]

From the people that play Train Simulator (By DTG) I am sure you know the Route London to Brighton...
I have started another route; around the general London area. I own Gradients of the British Mainline Railways, by Ian Allan.
A lot of great routes, except for some lines that are missing; and yes I know the book is base around the 1960s.

Anyway question is: (sorry about that) I cannot seem to find gradient heights for London Waterloo to Reading, Clapham Junction to Willesden Junction, Guildford to Surbiton, Alton area and Chessington area.

I have tried looking online again. I must of not done well, as I don't know any good train info sites.

The Ian Allan book is a reprint of earlier editions by The Railway Magazine in 1936 and 1947.
Part of the Reading/Waterloo line is covered by S15 at least to Wokingham, but the direct route via Bracknell isn't covered.
The West London line (Clapham Jun-Willesden) isn't in these diagrams.
S1 gives you Waterloo - Woking, so includes Surbiton, S6 takes you from Woking to Guilford. but not the direct route via Oxshott and Effingham.
Alton and Chessington aren't in these diagrams either. Possible the Mid-Hants Line may have a gradient map of their line west of Alton?

You might be able to use 1:25,000 OS maps and their contours to deduce possible gradients?

Many years ago I was making my first trip to the West Country on a family holiday - I was in my early teens - and wrote to BR at Paddington asking for information. I was invited up to a Paddington drawing office and spent a happy couple of hours copying their gradient diagram! Two years later I got a copy of the 1947 edition of the Gradient Diagrams.

John Webb

 

[AM9]

You might be able to use 1:25,000 OS maps and their contours to deduce possible gradients?

You can actually plot the path of a line on Google maps and then look at the elevation profile from which the gradients can be calculated.

 

[DoctorApple]

You can actually plot the path of a line on Google maps and then look at the elevation profile from which the gradients can be calculated.

I actually did something like that before with DEMs and Google Maps over lay, turns out they were very wrong, until I found that book.

 

[daikilo]

Try Network Rail, they must have the data and hopefully in a form from which they can extract a ownload for you. They may even be obligated to do so.

 

[swt_passenger]

Try Network Rail, they must have the data and hopefully in a form from which they can extract a ownload for you. They may even be obligated to do so.

Perhaps if people need it so badly, and for such an important reason, they should pay for it.

 

[DoctorApple]

Try Network Rail, they must have the data and hopefully in a form from which they can extract a ownload for you. They may even be obligated to do so.

I am pretty sure I tried something like that before, they never got back to me.

 

[rebmcr]

I am pretty sure I tried something like that before, they never got back to me.

Make an FoI request?

 

[The Planner]

Normal source of gradients are 5 mile diagrams (3rd party owned and NR can't give them out) or signalling diagram, which again are unlikely to be given out from a FoI request..

 

[Ploughman]

I read in the NERA's book on NE Region gradients, that as a surveyor working for BR he was tasked with checking gradients in the NE Area.
Even allowing for previous renewals, subsidence and a number of other factors, he could not match any gradient values.
Profiles should only be taken as a guide not as a fact.

As an example, I surveyed a section of the NYMR for a renewal between Goathland and Beck Hole.
The stated gradient is well known as being 1 - 49.
In reality it varied from 1 - 60 to a minimum of 1 - 20 for a length of approx 30 metres.
That spot just happened to be where any train that was going to stall did stall.
The renewal cured that one.

 

[Joe Paxton]

Normal source of gradients are 5 mile diagrams (3rd party owned and NR can't give them out) or signalling diagram, which again are unlikely to be given out from a FoI request..

Who owns them?

 

[pdeaves]

Who owns them?

Waterman Civils (or at least, it used to be).

 

[rebmcr]

Perhaps the best solution for the OP is to use a professional-grade GPS/barometer unit that can display accurate altitude measurements, and gather the information manually?

 

[daikilo]

Normal source of gradients are 5 mile diagrams (3rd party owned and NR can't give them out) or signalling diagram, which again are unlikely to be given out from a FoI request..

I imagine that if the paper documents are now owned by a private company it is because NR have a digital database for everyday use. This is why I suggested asking for a down-load of the data you need. I am pretty sure that this data is used to calculate the performance of different train formations for scheduling purposes (at least it used to be 40+ years ago).

 

[The Planner]

Gradients for modelling systems that we use are taken off what Ive said. What AEA in Derby used is lost in distant memory I suspect.

 

[nag67]

Gradient info is linked on this page:

https://safety.networkrail.co.uk/safety/on-track-plant-safety/rrv-safety-improvement-programme/

Spreadsheet is at:

https://safety.networkrail.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/Copy-of-Track-Gradients-by-DU.xls

Takes a bit of interpreting, but it is all there.

 

[The Planner]

One day we will put info in places that its readily available and easy to get to, I doubt very few know this exists, first Ive seen of it.

 

[edwin_m]

Perhaps the best solution for the OP is to use a professional-grade GPS/barometer unit that can display accurate altitude measurements, and gather the information manually?

Don't think that would work from a moving train as accurate survey equipment tends to take a little while to work. Getting safely to track level at frequent intervals would also be tricky.

 

[edwin_m]

Gradients for modelling systems that we use are taken off what Ive said. What AEA in Derby used is lost in distant memory I suspect.

I shared an office with them for a while and remember the leather-bound books of profiles including no doubt lots of routes long disused, but the probably went into a skip along with most of AEA (including the people...).

The modern equivalent would be Railsys - I believe Network Rail holds models of its entire network from which gradients could be extracted, but you'd need a good reason or to pay to get hold of it.

 

[The Planner]

Railsys is fed from 5 mile diagrams and signalling diagrams and has gaps in it. A licence is the best part of 10k too.

 

[edwin_m]

Railsys is fed from 5 mile diagrams and signalling diagrams and has gaps in it. A licence is the best part of 10k too.

I've just done the training course this week! Someone with access to the software and a model of the relevant area could export the gradient data as a spreadsheet.

 

[DoctorApple]

Gradient info is linked on this page:

https://safety.networkrail.co.uk/safety/on-track-plant-safety/rrv-safety-improvement-programme/

Spreadsheet is at:

https://safety.networkrail.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/Copy-of-Track-Gradients-by-DU.xls

Takes a bit of interpreting, but it is all there.

Thanks for this there is a ton of info there on the 2nd link, but it is VERY confusing.
I don't suppose there is any line graphs around, if there are any?

 

[The Planner]

I've just done the training course this week! Someone with access to the software and a model of the relevant area could export the gradient data as a spreadsheet.

You assume the models are half decent!