My Idea - Connect Mid Cheshire Line to Styal Line

[HSTEd]

Well we all know that there trains from Manchester to Chester via Altrincham and Stockport.

We also all know that these trains are a little hamstrung by a shortage of paths through Stockport, and the rather long way round the trains take.
The route does seem to spend a long time going through built up areas of South Manchester so might have potential for one or two new stations to be built on it.
It certainly seems there is room on the alignment for passing loops where required, and the bottleneck between Navigation Road and Altrincham can certainly handle two trains per hour.

So why not build a flyover-chord to connect the line to the Styal Line where the latter crosses it? The distance in height does not seem outrageous and there appears to be enough open space available for it to fit.

You could then divert two of the trains (per hour) that currently terminate at the Airport for the purpose of clearing platforms in Picadilly to Chester.
The capacity on the Styal Line is in any case rather less constrained than that through STockport, which would gain a path via this mechanism.

It just seems to be a route that is going to waste simply because of the lack of a chord to another relatively under-developed line.

I'm assuming there is some obvious reason this is impossible - but I am interested to hear what it is [and let's not talk about electrification or anything like that just yet!]

 

[Joseph_Locke]

The Styal line is very busy, so adding a junction and diverting more trains that way isn't good.

Better idea; blow the dust off the sSRA study from 1999/2000 and just connect the Airport branch to the mid-Cheshire near Mobberley. I believe the route is still being safeguarded under the Airport, and the third platform was built to accommodate it.

This gives also you Airport - Chester.

 

[HSTEd]

It does rather leave the stations north of Mobberley in an even worse position than they are now though doesn't it?
Its like in that case that the existing service would end up cut back as a Mobberley-Stockport shuttle.
Whilst the Styal Line is currently quite busy - a lot of the trains appear to be in the business of hauling air to the Airport and would be available for diversion without actually inconveniencing many people (although ofcourse there would be the standard screams of 'connectivity')

And even if this the most expensive chord in history, I am not sure it would cost anywhere near as much as a several mile new railway complete with a tunnel under the airport.

 

[MarkyT]

It does rather leave the stations north of Mobberley in an even worse position than they are now though doesn't it?
Its like in that case that the existing service would end up cut back as a Mobberley-Stockport shuttle.
Whilst the Styal Line is currently quite busy - a lot of the trains appear to be in the business of hauling air to the Airport and would be available for diversion without actually inconveniencing many people (although ofcourse there would be the standard screams of 'connectivity')

And even if this the most expensive chord in history, I am not sure it would cost anywhere near as much as a several mile new railway complete with a tunnel under the airport.

The airport tunnel idea to Mobberley would however connnect a large area of Cheshire directly to the airport, and thus possibly HS2 as well if the airport stations are close enough and linked, which your curve couldn't achieve. Perhaps with faster services to Chester via the airport. The existing route could could be downgraded a bit with a few additional intermediate stations added between Stockport and Altrincham.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

Leaving aside the network connectivity issues there are real physical issues. The Styal line crosses both the River Mersey and the M60 on a single viaduct and it would be extremely difficult to make any connection on that particular stretch. Immediately to the south of the viaduct the route is crossed by the slip-road from the northbound A34 to the westbound M60: this would probably have to be rebuilt to facilitate a rail junction beneath it. What's more the distance from the end of the viaduct to the Northenden Jn-Edgeley Jn line is no more than 165m so any curve connecting the two would be extremely tight meaning any southbound service from the Styal line to the curve would have to be travelling rather slowly approaching the junction thereby reducing the paths available on the Styal line. Don't forget that as well as providing access to the Airport branch the Styal line also acts as a Stockport by-pass for the long inter-modal trains heading south from Trafford Park. In short I suspect that a scheme to extend the Airport branch under the T2 apron to link to the Mid-Cheshire line, although expensive, would actually be better value for money in terms of the additional connectivity provided.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

So why not build a flyover-chord to connect the line to the Styal Line where the latter crosses it? The distance in height does not seem outrageous and there appears to be enough open space available for it to fit.

You could then divert two of the trains (per hour) that currently terminate at the Airport for the purpose of clearing platforms in Picadilly to Chester.
The capacity on the Styal Line is in any case rather less constrained than that through STockport, which would gain a path via this mechanism.

It's certainly an innovative idea. Not sure about the impact of removing services from the airport though. The airport sees a lot of trains, but they tend to go to a wide variety of destinations, so you may find it's hard to pick any trains to divert to Altrincham without finding you've completely killed the regular airport trains from some towns.

But I think the most obvious answer is that the cost of building such a chord might well turn out to be just as great as the cost of doing some doubling/line-speed improvements between Altrincham and Stockport that would allow you to improve that service. That's expecially true if you want to avoid conflicting movements on the Styal line - which would imply you'd need a grade separated junction on it as well as the chord. Improvements that allow more/faster trains between Altrincham and Stockport would be an altogether far more useful proposition, since Stockport is a significant destination in its own right. Admittedly though, that does still leave you with the problem of, is there any spare capacity between Stockport and Piccadilly for extra trains to Altrincham/Chester.

 

[Altfish]

Piccadilly to Chester via Altrincham is due to get a second train each hour from next year's timetable. It is likely to be a semi-fast.

 

[QueensCurve]

It does rather leave the stations north of Mobberley in an even worse position than they are now though doesn't it?
Its like in that case that the existing service would end up cut back as a Mobberley-Stockport shuttle.

Alternatively bring Altrincham to Mobberly within the ambit of Metrolink?

 

[Greybeard33]

Alternatively bring Altrincham to Mobberly within the ambit of Metrolink?

The Stockport Rail Strategy study of 2015 proposed tram-train conversion of the Edgeley to Altrincham line, with a link to the proposed Metrolink Airport western loop line at Baguley. There would be on-street running from Edgeley to Stockport town centre to avoid the WCML, with a stop on the west side of Stockport station. The plans for the new Stockport Interchange, replacing the old bus station, include provision for the Metrolink line.

To the north of Stockport, a tram-train route to Manchester was proposed via Reddish South, Reddish North and Belle Vue, with a new on-street link from Ashburys to the existing Metrolink Ashton line near Piccadilly.

An Airport to Mobberley link would dovetail with the above proposal by reducing heavy rail passenger services between Edgeley and Mobberley. It would also reduce platform occupancy at the Airport station, since through trains would not need recovery/reversal time. This could reduce the need for platform double occupancy, so enabling train lengths to be increased in the future.

 

[Greybeard33]

Leaving aside the network connectivity issues there are real physical issues. The Styal line crosses both the River Mersey and the M60 on a single viaduct and it would be extremely difficult to make any connection on that particular stretch. Immediately to the south of the viaduct the route is crossed by the slip-road from the northbound A34 to the westbound M60: this would probably have to be rebuilt to facilitate a rail junction beneath it. What's more the distance from the end of the viaduct to the Northenden Jn-Edgeley Jn line is no more than 165m so any curve connecting the two would be extremely tight meaning any southbound service from the Styal line to the curve would have to be travelling rather slowly approaching the junction thereby reducing the paths available on the Styal line. Don't forget that as well as providing access to the Airport branch the Styal line also acts as a Stockport by-pass for the long inter-modal trains heading south from Trafford Park. In short I suspect that a scheme to extend the Airport branch under the T2 apron to link to the Mid-Cheshire line, although expensive, would actually be better value for money in terms of the additional connectivity provided.

Yes, I regularly travel through this area by both rail and road, and in my view a chord of acceptable radius and gradient would require a complete rebuild of the whole M56-M60-A34 junction complex - the motorways are intermediate in level between the two rail lines. This would be hugely costly and unacceptably disruptive during construction.

Slightly more practical would be a chord between the Styal line and the Northenden to Hazel Grove freight line (ex-CLC line) to the north of the motorway. But even this would involve housing demolition and a new bridge over the Mersey.

 

[HSTEd]

Yes, I regularly travel through this area by both rail and road, and in my view a chord of acceptable radius and gradient would require a complete rebuild of the whole M56-M60-A34 junction complex - the motorways are intermediate in level between the two rail lines. This would be hugely costly and unacceptably disruptive during construction.

Slightly more practical would be a chord between the Styal line and the Northenden to Hazel Grove freight line (ex-CLC line) to the north of the motorway. But even this would involve housing demolition and a new bridge over the Mersey.

Ah - I think I have some confusion here.

I mean the line that connects to the Mid-Cheshire line that is north of the M60, as you stated.
This avoids the need to smash the junction interchange up.

The definitions of the lines are a little confused in my head.

 

[daodao]

Ah - I think I have some confusion here.

I mean the line that connects to the Mid-Cheshire line that is north of the M60, as you stated.
This avoids the need to smash the junction interchange up.

The definitions of the lines are a little confused in my head.

While there isn't much freight left on most British railways. please don't overlook that both these 2 lines still carry significant goods traffic. There is no extra capacity between Skelton Junction and Altrincham for more than 3 tph (2 passenger, 1 goods). There is a major difference in height between the ex-LNW and ex-CLC lines where they cross. Finally, the only places of even moderate significance served only by the mid Cheshire line (Knutsford and Northwich) will be adequately provided for once they have a 2 tph Mon-Sat service to Greater M/c.

 

[northwichcat]

It does rather leave the stations north of Mobberley in an even worse position than they are now though doesn't it?
Its like in that case that the existing service would end up cut back as a Mobberley-Stockport shuttle.
Whilst the Styal Line is currently quite busy - a lot of the trains appear to be in the business of hauling air to the Airport and would be available for diversion without actually inconveniencing many people (although ofcourse there would be the standard screams of 'connectivity')

And even if this the most expensive chord in history, I am not sure it would cost anywhere near as much as a several mile new railway complete with a tunnel under the airport.

The primary reasons for the proposal wasn't to give faster journey times from stations on the Mid-Cheshire line to Manchester. It was to connect more places to the Airport without requiring more paths through Manchester. I'm pretty sure the original proposal proposed extending one North TPE Airport service to Holyhead and another to Liverpool via Runcorn. It wasn't proposed either of those services would call at Knutsford or Northwich but there was an option for a service like the Southport one to be extended and to become a second local service on the Mid-Cheshire line.

 

[northwichcat]

Slightly more practical would be a chord between the Styal line and the Northenden to Hazel Grove freight line (ex-CLC line) to the north of the motorway. But even this would involve housing demolition and a new bridge over the Mersey.

I recall an 'eastern link' was looked in to but dismissed as being less viable than a 'western link.'

 

[Greybeard33]

I recall an 'eastern link' was looked in to but dismissed as being less viable than a 'western link.'

I believe the Airport eastern link proposal was to extend the Airport spur eastward, roughly along the line of the A6 to Manchester Airport Relief Road (A6MARR) that is currently under construction. It would have joined the WCML between Cheadle Hulme and Handforth to provide a direct link between Stockport and the Airport. However, the proposal failed to consider how additional paths could be found through Stockport and Cheadle Hulme Junction.

Not really related to the topic of this thread.

 

[Holly]

... Finally, the only places of even moderate significance served only by the mid Cheshire line (Knutsford and Northwich) will be adequately provided for once they have a 2 tph Mon-Sat service to Greater M/c.

It's not just frequency, it's also journey time.
The once popular Greenbank-Manchester Oxford Rd. commute to University takes longer today than it did in the 1960s using First Generation DMUs. At 72 minutes it's not that much faster than the (similar, to Central) journey in the 1950s under steam haulage! Today there isn't much demand only because there isn't any reasonably speedy service.

An Airport-Mobberley link would not only speed journey times between Mid-Cheshire and Manchester but it would provide more paths to/from the airport that don't pass through Manchester pinch points.
The way to make a Western link rurally unobtrusive and not interfere with aircraft operations would be to use cut and cover on airport land for much of the distance.

 

[Altfish]

The way to make a Western link rurally unobtrusive and not interfere with aircraft operations would be to use cut and cover on airport land for much of the distance.

It would also help to build it at the same time and in the same cutting as HS2 until it branches off near Ashley

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

HS2 will also take away most of the London/Birmingham trains from Stockport, allowing more local/regional services.
Some of the "HS3" options via the airport HS2 station (which will not be close to the current on-airport one) also address some of these issues (but not the mid-Cheshire ones).

 

[rebmcr]

The way to make a Western link rurally unobtrusive and not interfere with aircraft operations would be to use cut and cover on airport land for much of the distance.

It would also help to build it at the same time and in the same cutting as HS2 until it branches off near Ashley

HS2 will be bored, it's pretty deep.

 

[Joseph_Locke]

HS2 will be bored, it's pretty deep.

Not the west of the new HS2 station it isn't, either part.