Jeremy Corbyn's Traingate

[backontrack]

I'll agree with you on the title change, as long as it isn't changed to the train being full.

Well that's all I wanted, so

 

[CosherB]

A quick scan of your "contribution" there shows it to clearly have a right-wing agenda, so I'd treat any posting by you in future with the necessary huge pinch of salt. It's rather naïve to treat your post as somehow the 'truth'.

Oi! Pinching my prose without permission and modifying it!

 

[Spartacus]

Sorry to keep this going but what about those in Coach H, unreserved and apparently unoccupied approaching Potters Bar?

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...ened-labour-leadership-election-a7206936.html

 

[northwichcat]

Who did the FOI request go to? Stagecoach/Virgin is a private company to whom the FOI legislation doesn't apply in any way and they aren't beholden to provide anything.

Given the circumstances of this incident I'd imagine any 'FOI' request to them would be met with a firm 'rod off' and an explanation of what a FOI request actually is.

I'd be willing to bet that all the CCTV footage was that which Virgin CHOSE to, they didn't have to so I'll repeat CHOSE to release in order to refute Corbyn's nonsense claim.

Don't train loading figures have to provided to DfT? DfT would have to comply with a FOI request.

 

[northwichcat]

He was offered a free upgrade to 1st, where there were seats available. He declined it.

Jeremy Corbyn did acknowledge at the time to reporters that the train manager on the day offered him free first class seats, but he accepted standard seats vacated 42 minutes later by a family upgraded to First Class by train staff.

https://www.thelondoneconomic.com/n...age-proves-corbyn-told-truth-traingate/23/08/

Relevant to today's update

The Labour Party leader was filmed by freelance cameraman Yannis Mendez as he sat on the floor of a Virgin Trains East Coast train. Corbyn said the train was “ram-packed” and spoke of his policy to reverse the 1990’s privatisation of Britain’s railways.
...
Virgin Trains released CCTV clips on 23 August, 2016, seven days after the Traingate story broke. The next day cameraman Mendez made a formal request for the complete CCTV footage. According to Mendez it took just under seven months for Virgin Trains to comply, though they would not provide all the footage due to “technical difficulties” in the footage.

No mention of FOI there. Maybe someone wrongly thought a request to VTEC would have been a FOI request?

 

[IanXC]

No mention of FOI there. Maybe someone wrongly thought a request to VTEC would have been a FOI request?

Indeed. The difference between the Freedom Of Information act and the Data Protection Act is often misunderstood.

I have edited the title of the thread to ensure the discussion focuses on the matter at hand rather than this administrative point.

 

[DarloRich]

A quick scan of your "contribution" there shows it to clearly have a right-wing agenda, so I'd treat any posting by you in future with the necessary huge pinch of salt. It's rather naïve to treat your post as somehow the 'truth'.

Whatever. I am fairly certain my views aren't right wing but what they are is honest. Clownbyn tried to be clever, failed, didn't quite tell the truth, was called out and was made to look a mug. It wasn't a conspiracy by the awful "MSM" - it was an own goal.

The most annoying thing is that the point he was trying to make was worthy of discussion but by attempting to create an issue out of nothing he simply showed himself to be a ham fisted amateur . The point could have been made, easily and without any fakery, on any number of trains running on almost any day of the week out of London at 1700.

I'm saying that the unreserved seats were full. It's too risky politically for Corbyn to sit in a reserved seat.

Just a title like "Corbyn sits on floor on VTEC train" would be fine. It doesn't imply anything one way or the other.

The train was not full by any stretch of the imagination. There were seats available. He chose not to sit in them just like he chose to sit on the floor in an attempt to score some quick political points. He failed and was made to look stupid.

It wasn't an evil, corrupt, biased, Tory media that made him look silly. He handed it to them on a plate. THAT is the most annoying thing.

Indeed. The difference between the Freedom Of Information act and the Data Protection Act is often misunderstood.
.

And it hardly goes to the credibility of the article that such hard hitting honest journalists don't understand their source material.

I really don't understand why the cult would bring this all up again. Corbyn has managed to learn from this kind of silliness and get much better at handling and using the media. Why bring up a time when he wasn't so well armed?

 

[backontrack]

Sorry to keep this going but what about those in Coach H, unreserved and apparently unoccupied approaching Potters Bar?

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...ened-labour-leadership-election-a7206936.html

The CCTV footage shows that there are people in those seats - you just can't see them from that angle, and some of them are children. They are revealed through the footage.

The train was not full by any stretch of the imagination. There were seats available. He chose not to sit in them just like he chose to sit on the floor in an attempt to score some quick political points. He failed and was made to look stupid.

Your opinion ≠ truth.

 

[urbophile]

Whatever. I am fairly certain my views aren't right wing but what they are is honest. Clownbyn tried to be clever,

Perhaps I'd believe you if you gave him his proper name and not a disparaging nickname.

 

[DarloRich]

Your opinion ≠ truth.

That isnt an opinion. Seats were vacant. He chose not to sit in them. That is a fact. An opinion is that Corbyn is a clown.

Perhaps I'd believe you if you gave him his proper name and not a disparaging nickname.

Sorry I am not a paid up cult member like many of you.

 

[northwichcat]

In contrast to Corbyn's experience, Andy Burnham was just shown on an overcrowded 185 on the local news but he had obviously planned ahead and reserved a standard class seat.

 

[Kite159]

Fast long distance off-peak train heading north on a Friday morning during school holidays being busy shocker!

In my experience you get groups standing around by the doorways even when seats are available as they would rather stand together than sit apart, don't bother looking at the seat reservation labels or board at the first available door and don't bother moving from that point to see other carriages.

If the label says "Berwick to Edinburgh" [for example] then it is pretty safe to say that it is unreserved from London to Berwick, if the label says "London to York" and there is no sign of people using the seats a few minutes after departure than it is safe to say they were no-shows (or a group who couldn't be bothered walking past the unreserved coach)

The train looked busy, but wasn't "rammed", rammed would mean standing down the aisles, standing/sitting on luggage in the doorways, a bit like peak-time services from London towards commuter land

 

[EM2]

Normally evidence, but politely asking the people in the adjacent seats works for me. If they do happen to show up then you just move to the next one. Simples. Not many buffets are open on VTEC that soon after leaving kings cross.

You check the info on the reservation slip about the stations between which the seat's been reserved. You ask neighbouring passengers if they'd noticed whether there'd been anyone in that seat. You sit on it and wait. If no-one has come back in 15 minutes they probably weren't in the loo (unless there was a massive queue early in that journey that only nationalisation can resolve). If they come back from the buffet you let them have their seat. You don't blame the system if the whole of your party cannot sit together, or even if you and your wife can't sit together.

So again, we have no *proof* that these seats with labels were actually free. There's no sound on the CCTV, so there's no way to know what any of the group said to other passengers as they passed.

 

[absolutelymilk]

So again, we have no *proof* that these seats with labels were actually free. There's no sound on the CCTV, so there's no way to know what any of the group said to other passengers as they passed.

Apart from Corbyn saying "Yes, I did walk through the train. Yes, I did look for two empty seats together so I could sit down with my wife, to talk to her. That wasn't possible so I went to the end of the train."
which implies that there were free single seats.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-37173048

 

[driver_m]

We live in a world now where Jeremy Corbyn could be videoed feeding 5000 starving orphans with a McDonalds Happy Meal and people would slag him off for the choice of food. (And in the interests of balance, Teresa May could be sat dining on those same orphans and it would be all 'photoshopped'

 

[IanD]

In your opinion.

So the have changed the conditions of the reservations then? Not opinion fact I am afraid. Sorry.

No need to apologise. This issue has been argued many times and no-one has yet been able to provide any published conditions that support your "fact". Perhaps you could oblige.

 

[absolutelymilk]

No need to apologise. This issue has been argued many times and no-one has yet been able to provide any published conditions that support your "fact". Perhaps you could oblige.

The BBC says:

You can sit in reserved seats on inter-city trains if the person who made the reservation doesn't turn up

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-37177261

 

[MCR247]

They could've just got that from here to be fair

Hardly a definitive source on railway matters

 

[3141]

So again, we have no *proof* that these seats with labels were actually free. There's no sound on the CCTV, so there's no way to know what any of the group said to other passengers as they passed.

In #763 you asked: "So how do you know that that reserved seat isn't taken? How do you know that the person that reserved it isn't in the loo, or gone to the buffet?" I answered that in #767. You've now quoted that answer and are saying "So again we have no proof that these seats were actually free..."

Please note that I did not suggest that the seats were "free". I simply answered your question. I agree we can't tell if the Corbyn group paused to speak to seated passengers, but I didn't say they had.

 

[JetStream]

It’s published by DoubleDownNews. That company is owned by two people: Yannis Mendez and Liam Young (https://t.co/nYj4HFbPnr)

Mendez is the guy who filmed the original #TrainGate film.

By using DoubleDownNews to publish they’ve not made personal involvement obvious. Not clearly identified on Twitter/Facebook as owners.

It seems particularly relevant because Liam Young is employed by the Labour MP Karen Lee. Karen Lee is PPS to John McDonnell.

Just asking the Q: is it journalism, or political material to exonerate Mendez and Corbyn?

(via Tom Barton, BBC Journalist)

 

[EM2]

In #763 you asked: "So how do you know that that reserved seat isn't taken? How do you know that the person that reserved it isn't in the loo, or gone to the buffet?"

Indeed I did, in response to a statement that a reserved seat that was unoccupied fifteen minutes after departure could be taken by someone who had not reserved it.

I answered that in #767. You've now quoted that answer and are saying "So again we have no proof that these seats were actually free..."

Your answer #767 does not prove that you *know* that the seats are free.

Please note that I did not suggest that the seats were "free". I simply answered your question. I agree we can't tell if the Corbyn group paused to speak to seated passengers, but I didn't say they had.

I asked how you (the global 'you') *know* that the seats are free.
You answered with a list of steps that you (personally) would take.
It is therefore reasonable for me to assume that those steps are how you would *know* that the seats are free.

 

[Failed Unit]

The whole point is this was a stunt had the objective that Jeremy would be sat on the floor, otherwise they wouldn't have being filming in the first place. I suspect that seats were available but this didn't meet with the objective of the film. You don't need to research hard to know that service is busy hence why it was picked. They could have got a reservation on that day - they didn't. But as many have said there is nothing VTEC can do (unless the make York pickup only and force York people on the 1108)

No idea why the target VTEC when any commuter train would do. They could have picked on XC with their reserve on the move kick someone out the seat policy.

It is hard to take the film maker as credible when their objective was to show people on the floor (and not try to find seats themselves which I would be amazed if they were not available). As for the footage- wonder if the film maker has manipulated it. Very easy to do.

 

[IanD]

The BBC says:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-37177261
You can sit in reserved seats on inter-city trains if the person who made the reservation doesn't turn up

Not proof of anything, except that maybe the 15 minutes claim applies in other parts of Europe only.

 

[Failed Unit]

Not proof of anything, except that maybe the 15 minutes claim applies in other parts of Europe only.

Will look for document, but I have see VTEC guards removing reservation labels during ticket check on busy services, for passengers who clearly haven't shown up. (Or say elsewhere)

 

[ainsworth74]

In contrast to Corbyn's experience, Andy Burnham was just shown on an overcrowded 185 on the local news but he had obviously planned ahead and reserved a standard class seat.

To be fair I am of the understanding that they had seat reservations but had a change of plans so had to travel on a different train to the one that they had reserved.

 

[backontrack]

This statement is funny. If someone turns up with the reservation he moves like anyone else would. Remember it was him trying to make an issue of this. The person that moved him wouldn't care.

What a strange sense of humour you have.

Point is, that even if he does move the tabloids would make a fuss out of it. I'd assume that's obvious.

*goes and hides*

 

[Failed Unit]

What a strange sense of humour you have.

Point is, that even if he does move the tabloids would make a fuss out of it. I'd assume that's obvious.

*goes and hides*

Oh yes brilliant story for the daily mail. "He was sat in my seat (shock horror)", "what did you do?", "I asked him to move and he did". That would make him look like a decent human. Not much to fear from what i can see. It would only be if he refused it would be a story. That applies anyone to be honest.

 

[SaveECRewards]

I was always of the belief that the 'facts' by Virgin did not add up. This was written when the footage was first published: http://saveecrewards.co.uk/blog/look-corbyn-allegations

Key points:

• I thought Corbyn making this video was a stupid idea. The same overcrowding would have happened if DOR had still been running East Coast.
• If it had solely been a publicity stunt why would he have walked all the way from coach H (Foodbar) to coach B (the end carriage where he was filmed)? Wouldn't it make sense to just sit in the nearest vestibule, film quickly and take a seat before the guard notices him
• There were other people also sitting on the floor of the train
• If they'd walked the length of the train to find some seats together it would be highly likely that others will have taken the empty seats if they decided to go back
• It was released just before a bank holiday weekend where many people would genuinely have to stand on overcrowded trains.

Not everyone can reserve.

It's OK to hate Corbyn but believe Richard Branson was out of order too! They were both wrong in this situation.

Oh yes brilliant story for the daily mail. "He was sat in my seat (shock horror)", "what did you do?", "I asked him to move and he did". That would make him look like a decent human. Not much to fear from what i can see. It would only be if he refused it would be a story. That applies anyone to be honest.

Papers can bend the truth or just outright lie. They could say Corbyn took the seat and the person felt too intimidated to ask him to move. The papers were picking up anything to make him look bad.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Stagecoach bending the truth.

Well I'm shocked.

 

[Failed Unit]

Stagecoach bending the truth.

Well I'm shocked.

Yep. They are both as bad as each other. (Stagecoach and MPs)

Neither side comes out looking positive on this one.