TPE Newcastle to Edinburgh

[Starmill]

This plan implies the half-hourly peak and Saturday service to North Berwick isn't possible any longer? I thought the idea was to extend this to weekday daytimes too.

There are already 4 intercity services an hour in some hours on Sunday between Newcastle and Edinburgh - the only reason that works well now though is because the extra one takes the path of the Morpeth service. What's going to happen when that starts running..?

Also, not stopping at Berwick-upon-Tweed isn't a new idea. There are a lot of East Coast and CrossCountry trains that don't stop there even now. The Up Highland Chieftain runs non-stop from Edinburgh to Newcastle and the 1100 from King's Cross does the same the other way (don't ask me why!). Obviously the Flying Scotsman does this too.

 

[northwichcat]

as even the slow TPE West Coast services will remain significantly faster than the route via Newcastle.

Some passengers choose price over speed.

So is it all really for the sake of Huddersfield and Morpeth perhaps?

Don't forget Huddersfield is a large town and doesn't currently have direct links to anywhere outside the North of England (except for 1 evening service to Retford.)

 

[Starmill]

Some passengers choose price over speed.

So? We know that this does not make for an efficient allocation of track capacity.


[/QUOTE]

 

[northwichcat]

So? We know that this does not make for an efficient allocation of track capacity.

I was simply making the point that just because there's a faster alternative doesn't mean no-one will use it as a through service. Are posts which are not anti-First plans not allowed in this thread? :roll:

 

[Failed Unit]

Some passengers choose price over speed.

Very true. But as the Edinburgh to Manchester service is operated by the same company not sure if they will use that incentive, unless they want to reduce the loading on the west coast service.

Edinburgh- Leeds is more interesting.

I currently use VTEC to York and TPE to Leeds. Cheaper than XC and better catering. Split the ticket. Others prefer the direct service but if TPE offers something better than Cross-Country people will use it.

The Edinburgh - Huddersfield flow exists already as many people I have changed trains with at York are heading to Huddersfield.

I did travel to Manchester a few times by ECML when the direct service was not too good. Time wise not much longer, pleasant. Runs could be useful for maintenance and diagrams (if the intermingle with the west coast route) but the cynic makes me think it is a raid.

 

[northwichcat]

Very true. But as the Edinburgh to Manchester service is operated by the same company not sure if they will use that incentive, unless they want to reduce the loading on the west coast service.

The west coast won't be every hour (although it will probably be possible to change to a Virgin Edinburgh service at Preston the hours the TPE services run to Glasgow.)

but if TPE offers something better than Cross-Country people will use it.

At the time the service will be launched what will VTEC, VTWC and XC all offer free on board wi-fi and media streaming?

In the case of TPE vs XC if they can offer seats to those without seat reservations that might be an advantage!

 

[Senex]

In the case of TPE vs XC if they can offer seats to those without seat reservations that might be an advantage!

That will be a huge advantage for any last-minute passengers, especially those wanting to travel in First.

 

[Class 170101]

We're all human

For those questioning the capacity of the route, the weekday timings on the route heading Southbound from Edinburgh show that, although it's a jam packed route, there is a small bit of space left.

Based on average hourly weekday timings (clockwise obviously), conclusions that can be made:

• ScotRail occupy slot at xx:43
  -->All Stopper North Berwick
  
  
• VTEC occupy slots at xx:00 and xx:30
  -->Rotate between Fast & Semi-Fast
  
  
• xx:00 VTEC service = 7 minutes behind xx:43 by the time the latter verges off ECML onto the North Berwick Branch Line
  -->Thus, there is no space in-between xx:43 & xx:00 slots

• 
  
  But if the North Berwick went 1 minute thoughout (based on your timings) there would be a slot departing Edinburgh around xx56 passing Drem four minutes after the North Berwick train. The Headway over this section is 4 minutes.

 

[najaB]

Are there not plans to provide a Northbound Dunbar platform? Not sure if it will be possible to pass other trains once it opens.

I don't believe it will be, the platform will be on the main running line. I suppose they could keep the down to up crossover south of the station and treat the up line as a reversible loop.

 

[Clansman]

But if the North Berwick went 1 minute thoughout (based on your timings) there would be a slot departing Edinburgh around xx56 passing Drem four minutes after the North Berwick train. The Headway over this section is 4 minutes.

Totally bypassed me that 4-minute headway. Well spotted.

 

[Class 170101]

Totally bypassed me that 4-minute headway. Well spotted.

It should be noted that XC run a train on Sundays departing around 13:50 usually to Reading so perhaps a slot (albeit a slow slot) is possible here depending on other operators the rest of the week.

 

[InOban]

It's all very well working out a set of paths out of Edinburgh. Working out the northbound paths, with VTEC trains having various stopping patterns, and with trains from North Berwick having to cross the south bound line, that looks much trickier.....

 

[Andyh82]

Leeds Leeds Leeds!

The XC is very over subscribed!

This leads to the same old point, that if XC used larger trains, they wouldn't be oversubscribed, meaning no need for more than one an hour and would also mean those who now change at York to get better facilities also wouldn't need to do.

 

[Clansman]

It's all very well working out a set of paths out of Edinburgh. Working out the northbound paths, with VTEC trains having various stopping patterns, and with trains from North Berwick having to cross the south bound line, that looks much trickier.....

True. It's a different kettle of fish when you have trains that have been travelling for hours at a time sharing a 20 mile long stretch of track with local stopping services. One delay to any Intercity service on the current infrastructure when all the new services are up and running, and it'll all go pearshaped.

 

[hibtastic]

Does anyone really know what the point of the TP Edinburgh service is? Passengers for Scotland from Liverpool will clearly go West Coast, and there is really no choice for Manchester-Edinburgh passengers either, as even the slow TPE West Coast services will remain significantly faster than the route via Newcastle. Leeds already has an hourly Edinburgh service provided by XC—is there really the potential traffic from Leeds for a half-hourly service. And once in York, you are on the ECML proper. So is it all really for the sake of Huddersfield and Morpeth perhaps?

There's certainly an argument for a proper fast service to link Liverpool and Manchester with Leeds, York, and Newcastle, but does it have to be extended on through to Edinburgh to justify it?

The 802s will be maintained at Craigentinny too I was led to believe so they have to get them up there somehow.

 

[IanXC]

The 802s will be maintained at Craigentinny too I was led to believe so they have to get them up there somehow.

I believe TPE's 802s are to be formally allocated to Doncaster Carr?

 

[Jonny]

If there's a risk of lack of space, why is capacity on the ECML so much lower than on the WCML?

On a weekday this is the number of booked workings on a double section of the WCML through Cheshire: http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/search/advanced/XYJ/2017/08/18/0000-2359?stp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt while the current number of booked workings through Dunbar is considerably lower: http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/search/advanced/DUN/2017/08/18/0000-2359?stp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt

Am I right in thinking that a lot of the track between Berwick-upon-Tweed and Newcastle is 3-aspect (with 4 aspect sections) with speeds of up to 125 mph? That would be a massive choke on capacity.

 

[Failed Unit]

Am I right in thinking that a lot of the track between Berwick-upon-Tweed and Newcastle is 3-aspect (with 4 aspect sections) with speeds of up to 125 mph? That would be a massive choke on capacity.

North of Newcastle the ECML is nearly all 2 track, with the odd loop here and there. Not sure what % is 125mph but it is very curvy so a significant amount is actually sub 100mph.

People have spoke of a Morpeth bypass for example to remove one of the most extreme curves. But I think it is only talk rather than a real likelihood of it happening. I think the best we will see for capacity improvement is more / longer loops.

 

[800001]

I believe TPE's 802s are to be formally allocated to Doncaster Carr?

Correct Doncaster will be home to Vtec and Tpex.

 

[hibtastic]

Correct Doncaster will be home to Vtec and Tpex.

Ah my bad. I am sure I read about Craigentinny being used by TPE somewhere, perhaps just light maintenance.

I am hoping there is spare capacity available to open East Linton station and have it served by Edinburgh to Dunbar/Berwick services - funding has been secured for it I believe.

 

[backontrack]

Tp Exp have only said the will stop at Morpeth + others to be determined nroth of Newcastle and as this is not for a couple years yet lots can happen.

Cramlington? Pegswood? Dunbar? Reston? Belford?

 

[DanBlanchflowe]

Nothing recent on this thread, so an update on TPE's planned service north of Newcastle would be appreciated.

 

[swt_passenger]

Nothing recent on this thread, so an update on TPE's planned service north of Newcastle would be appreciated.

Welcome to the forums.

I think there is more up to date info but probably in more recent threads about December’s overall TPE plans and rolling stock introductions. Although timetables as such won’t be published yet, the service patterns are visible in some open data sites such as realtimetrains. A query on TPE trains at Morpeth for Dec 16th should help:
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/sea...6/0200-0159?stp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt&toc=TP
When I checked a few of the individual services there was a negligible number of other station calls.

 

[Class 170101]

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/sea...8/0200-0159?stp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt&toc=TP

All TPE trains between Newcastle and Edinburgh as currently proposed for December 2019 - subject to change until 12 weeks out.

 

[Tramtrain]

Cramlington? Pegswood? Dunbar? Reston? Belford?

Cramlington in particular loses out with the extension of the TPE services from NCL to EDB. The northbound paths seem to be taken from the existing Northern services, which are retimed. In the case of the 1721 Northern departure ex NCL, this train is moved to 1648 and replaced by a TPE at 1722. Of course this TPE doesn’t stop at either Manors or Cramlington, meaning the next service for both these stations is the 1755 to Chathill. This means that Cramlington effectively loses a peak time departure from NCL, when surely stopping the TPE at CRM wouldn’t be out of the question.

The same could be said of the southbound 0643 and 0744 TPE ex MPT, which could stop at Cramlington to provide earlier trains into NCL than Northern offer.

 

[najaB]

...when surely stopping the TPE at CRM wouldn’t be out of the question...

How long are the platforms at Cramlington and how long are the trains that TPE will be using on this service?

 

[Tramtrain]

How long are the platforms at Cramlington and how long are the trains that TPE will be using on this service?

As a rough guess, around 100m, so it’s true that if TPE are going to use 5-car 802s (which I guess are around 125m) for the service then that may be an issue, but presumably selective door opening could be used in that case. RTT suggests the early southbound services are Electric locos, whereas the Northbound 1722 ex NCL is Diesel. I don’t think 185 or 350s would be an issue.

 

[greyman42]

North of Newcastle the ECML is nearly all 2 track, with the odd loop here and there. Not sure what % is 125mph but it is very curvy so a significant amount is actually sub 100mph.

People have spoke of a Morpeth bypass for example to remove one of the most extreme curves. But I think it is only talk rather than a real likelihood of it happening. I think the best we will see for capacity improvement is more / longer loops.

As far as I know, the only 125mph section north of Newcastle is Joppa Straight between Drem and Edinburgh.

 

[scotrail158713]

As far as I know, the only 125mph section north of Newcastle is Joppa Straight between Drem and Edinburgh.

I reckon they’re pretty close to 125mph northbound through Drem and Wallyford. There’s too many curves in the rest of the track to get any 125mph - as far as I know.

 

[class 9]

125mph sections from NCL to EDB as follows:-
North of Alnmouth to Christon Bank
Falodon to Newham bog
Just after the bog to Beal curve, after the curve to just south of Berwick.
East Fortune to Drem.
Drem to Balancrief curve.
Blindwells to just before Monktonhall Jct.