TPE Newcastle to Edinburgh

[Andyh82]

I've tried to find this info but without luck.

When this service is introduced, what will the stopping pattern be between Newcastle and Edinburgh, and will there be an effect on the calls made by other operators along this section?

Also which of TPE's various types of upcoming stock is expected to run it, both initially and permanently?

 

[IanXC]

As far as I have read its looking like Class 802s, with the only intermediate calling point being Morpeth. I would suggest that watching this space would be wise tho!

 

[Liam]

What's the reason for not stopping at Berwick?

 

[driver9000]

It will be the Hitachi class 802 units. It will become Liverpool to Edinburgh via Leeds and Newcastle.

 

[55z]

Tp Exp have only said the will stop at Morpeth + others to be fetermined noth of Newcastle and as this is not for a couple years yet lots can happen.

 

[northwichcat]

What's the reason for not stopping at Berwick?

Possibly revenue abstraction reasons? Berwick has regular Scottish services already, yet Morpeth has some long gaps between existing Scottish services.

 

[cuccir]

I think many people might have hoped that TPE would finally be the operator to offer a decent service between the Northumberland towns, so it's disappointing if this won't happen

 

[greyman42]

Possibly revenue abstraction reasons? Berwick has regular Scottish services already, yet Morpeth has some long gaps between existing Scottish services.

Do the paths that will be available between Newcastle and Edinburgh only allow it the one stop at Morpeth ?

 

[Andyh82]

It would be a bit odd if it did only stop at Morpeth as that would mean TPE would end up being the fastest service.

You'd think they could pick up some of the Alnmouth & Dunbar calls from VTEC to speed up their journeys. The ones that aren't used for passengers at those stations to/from London KX that is. Such as northbound morning ones and southbound afternoon/evening ones.

 

[Clansman]

ScotRail will soon be running semi-fast services to Berwick Upon Tweed, so I imagine by TPE picking up only Morpeth, it then allows VTEC, XC and ScotRail to even out the calls at the likes of Dunbar, Berwick and Alnmouth in order to speed up journeys whilst maintaining similar frequencies at these stations.

 

[InOban]

ScotRail will soon be running semi-fast services to Berwick Upon Tweed, so I imagine by TPE picking up only Morpeth, it then allows VTEC, XC and ScotRail to even out the calls at the likes of Dunbar, Berwick and Alnmouth in order to speed up journeys whilst maintaining similar frequencies at these stations.

'Soon'? I know there is quite understandable pressure for an East Borders station at Reston, but there is only a single island platform at Berwick, so no facility to turn round trains.

 

[northwichcat]

It would be a bit odd if it did only stop at Morpeth as that would mean TPE would end up being the fastest service.

TPE do want the Liverpool/Manchester Airport to York and beyond services to be seen as proper Intercity services and not regional express services.

 

[Liam]

'Soon'? I know there is quite understandable pressure for an East Borders station at Reston, but there is only a single island platform at Berwick, so no facility to turn round trains.

There was a TS document somewhere that said Scotrail were planning to use the sidings to the South of the Border Bridge to turn trains in order to free up the platforms at the station.

 

[IanXC]

ScotRail will soon be running semi-fast services to Berwick Upon Tweed, so I imagine by TPE picking up only Morpeth, it then allows VTEC, XC and ScotRail to even out the calls at the likes of Dunbar, Berwick and Alnmouth in order to speed up journeys whilst maintaining similar frequencies at these stations.

I am far from convinced that there is space for:

• 2x Virgin Trains EC
• 1x CrossCountry
• 0.5x First East Coast
• 1x TPE
• 1x ScotRail Edinburgh - Berwick upon Tweed
• 1x ScotRail Edinburgh - North Berwick
• At least 1x Freight

Every hour.

I think I am correct in saying that the ScotRail Berwick upon Tweed and TPE services are the ones that don't have formal ORR approval?

 

[northwichcat]

I am far from convinced that there is space for:

• 2x Virgin Trains EC
• 1x CrossCountry
• 0.5x First East Coast
• 1x TPE
• 1x ScotRail Edinburgh - Berwick upon Tweed
• 1x ScotRail Edinburgh - North Berwick
• At least 1x Freight

Every hour.

I think I am correct in saying that the ScotRail Berwick upon Tweed and TPE services are the ones that don't have formal ORR approval?

If there's a risk of lack of space, why is capacity on the ECML so much lower than on the WCML?

On a weekday this is the number of booked workings on a double section of the WCML through Cheshire: http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/search/advanced/XYJ/2017/08/18/0000-2359?stp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt while the current number of booked workings through Dunbar is considerably lower: http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/search/advanced/DUN/2017/08/18/0000-2359?stp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt

 

[tbtc]

I am far from convinced that there is space for:

• 2x Virgin Trains EC
• 1x CrossCountry
• 0.5x First East Coast
• 1x TPE
• 1x ScotRail Edinburgh - Berwick upon Tweed
• 1x ScotRail Edinburgh - North Berwick
• At least 1x Freight

Every hour.

I think I am correct in saying that the ScotRail Berwick upon Tweed and TPE services are the ones that don't have formal ORR approval?

I know that you are talking about the northern end but at the southern end, there's a path timed for a 75mph DMU on the fifteen miles from Newcastle to Morpeth (which needs to cross over the southbound line to terminate in the unelectrified siding).

Even though there'll be 90mph 158s at Heaton, I presume that the Morpeth stoppers (and Chathill extension) will require paths for 75mph 156s, which seems a waste on the ECML.

If only there were surplus 319s sitting around that we could convert into 769s...

More relevantly, it's a shame that the GNER ambition for a "Musselburgh Parkway" didn't happen - a four platform station on the outskirts of Edinburgh would have been a good place for the LDHS to overtake the stoppers - otherwise you are stuck behind a stopper all the way between Waverley and Drem.

But, given different politics both sides of the border, there's less urgency to solve things (similar to the problems with dualling of the A1)

If there's a risk of lack of space, why is capacity on the ECML so much lower than on the WCML?

On a weekday this is the number of booked workings on a double section of the WCML through Cheshire: http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/search/advanced/XYJ/2017/08/18/0000-2359?stp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt while the current number of booked workings through Dunbar is considerably lower: http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/search/advanced/DUN/2017/08/18/0000-2359?stp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt

How long is that double track section on the WCML though?

On the ECML you've got a hundred miles of two tracked railway with only a couple of loops - other than Dunbar all platforms are on the main line (and Dunbar has the awkward set up where a northbound service has to cross the southbound tracks twice to serve the station).

Plus there's the light running to/from the depots at Heaton/ Craigentinny, the "Borders" services as far as Portobello, the flat junctions.

A freight may only take a minute or two to clear a short bottleneck (compared to a passenger service), but over a hundred miles that's going to make quite a difference. A non stop LDHS can take around ninety minutes but you can be talking around two hours for freight to do the equivalent journey.

 

[Clansman]

I am far from convinced that there is space for:

• 2x Virgin Trains EC
• 1x CrossCountry
• 0.5x First East Coast
• 1x TPE
• 1x ScotRail Edinburgh - Berwick upon Tweed
• 1x ScotRail Edinburgh - North Berwick
• At least 1x Freight

Every hour.
I think I am correct in saying that the ScotRail Berwick upon Tweed and TPE services are the ones that don't have formal ORR approval?

ScotRail will only run 5 trains a day to Berwick Upon Tweed, rather than every hour - which will act as an extension to the Dunbar semi-fasts.
The time slots upon departure from Dunbar (weekday) heading to Berwick is as follows:

10:35
12:36
14:34
16:33
22:30

 

[IanXC]

ScotRail will only run 5 trains a day to Berwick Upon Tweed, rather than every hour - which will act as an extension to the Dunbar semi-fasts.
The time slots upon departure from Dunbar (weekday) heading to Berwick is as follows:

10:35
12:36
14:34
16:33
22:30

Ah I was not aware of that, perhaps they will then fit in the opposite hours to the First East Coast paths.

 

[Failed Unit]

Are there not plans to provide a Northbound Dunbar platform? Not sure if it will be possible to pass other trains once it opens.

If I was the "fat controller" I would be handing over Newcastle- Morpeth to TPE. Would the extra stop(s) really impact the plans that badly?

 

[Clansman]

Ah I was not aware of that, perhaps they will then fit in the opposite hours to the First East Coast paths.

Apologies, I should have clarified this in my initial post.

Are there not plans to provide a Northbound Dunbar platform? Not sure if it will be possible to pass other trains once it opens.

Yes, although I don't know anything else apart from that.

 

[northwichcat]

How long is that double track section on the WCML though?

I'm not sure of the exact distance of double track which Scotland to Birmingham/London services have to use on the WCML but the section I quoted does have the advantage of the Liverpool services separating off from the services to Wigan and beyond.

 

[IanXC]

Apologies, I should have clarified this in my initial post.

Not at all, I'm disappointed in myself for not knowing that!

 

[Clansman]

Not at all, I'm disappointed in myself for not knowing that!

We're all human

For those questioning the capacity of the route, the weekday timings on the route heading Southbound from Edinburgh show that, although it's a jam packed route, there is a small bit of space left.

Based on average hourly weekday timings (clockwise obviously), conclusions that can be made:

• ScotRail occupy slot at xx:43
  -->All Stopper North Berwick
  
  
• VTEC occupy slots at xx:00 and xx:30
  -->Rotate between Fast & Semi-Fast
  
  
• xx:00 VTEC service = 7 minutes behind xx:43 by the time the latter verges off ECML onto the North Berwick Branch Line
  -->Thus, there is no space in-between xx:43 & xx:00 slots
  
  
• There is a vacant slot between xx:30 & xx:43, with the former being an Intercity service, and the latter a stopping service
  -->Creating a 25-minute gap at Drem between the former passing through and the latter departing the station
  -->This allows the space for an additional Intercity service in between - TPE?
  
  
• There are two slots between xx:05 & xx:15, with XC's hourly southbound being the former, and ScotRail's Dunbar service being the latter
  -->Given ScotRail occupy the latter slot once every two hours, this allows First East Coast to occupy the same slot on the preceding hour.
  -->Upon departing Dunbar for Berwick, the next Intercity service will be ~15 minutes behind the newly introduced ScotRail service
  

So logic would say there is the space to accommodate ScotRail to Berwick, TPE and First EC, but there would be no room for any further additions after that without major infrastructure enhancements.

I don't have a scoobie how the slots and timings work South of Edinburgh, so cut me some slack if I have made an (likely) error somewhere in this. No harm in trying never the less

 

[MidnightFlyer]

How long is that double track section on the WCML though?

Between Weaver Junction (where Preston / Liverpool split) and Acton Bridge (where Slow lines materialise) the Up runs as one line for two and a half miles, the Down for little over two. There is a further five mile stretch of double track between Hartford LNW Jn and Winsford.

The WCML north of Preston is considerably flighted I believe, with no elongated four track running, aside for arguably the split between Main and Goods for five miles or so north of Carlisle. The three passenger services an hour to Scotland ex-Preston depart at xx41, xx53 and xx58; whilst Virgin's two southbound services arrive there at xx56 and xy14.

(To go back on topic, am I the only one reading this who is thinking that as soon as TPE get involved we are perhaps reaching overkill between Newcastle and Edinburgh? 4tph plus open access is rather a lot...)

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

Between Weaver Junction (where Preston / Liverpool split) and Acton Bridge (where Slow lines materialise) the Up runs as one line for two and a half miles, the Down for little over two. There is a further five mile stretch of double track between Hartford LNW Jn and Winsford.

The WCML north of Preston is considerably flighted I believe, with no elongated four track running, aside for arguably the split between Main and Goods for five miles or so north of Carlisle. The three passenger services an hour to Scotland ex-Preston depart at xx41, xx53 and xx58; whilst Virgin's two southbound services arrive there at xx56 and xy14.

(To go back on topic, am I the only one reading this who is thinking that as soon as TPE get involved we are perhaps reaching overkill between Newcastle and Edinburgh? 4tph plus open access is rather a lot...)

I think on here at least we have had "lively" debate on this matter. The real question is what is the demand from the intermediate stations to points beyond York. Those previous discussions seemed to indicate that services to London were more popular than to Birmingham. But if push came to shove and a choice had to be made then would the preference for any other service be for Sheffield/Birmingham or Manchester/Airport/Liverpool? And would it help if the Newcastle to Morpeth local service was electrically operated and went to Durham perhaps rather than the Metro Centre? This might allow Chester-le-Street calls to be removed from longer-distance services and require sufficient number of EMUs such as to be more than an awkward micro fleet.

 

[MCR247]

I'm assuming Firsts Open access London - Edinburgh service isn't going ahead as there surely won't be room for that too?

 

[Failed Unit]

I'm assuming Firsts Open access London - Edinburgh service isn't going ahead as there surely won't be room for that too?

It has gone quiet but it appears according to this months modern railways that many of the infrastructure enhancements that would allow committed franchise services are running late. The full VTEC service now not expected until 2021. I would suspect the open access services will have the same problems to path without these improvements.

As for demand if I was doing Edinburgh to York (or even Leeds) if prices were fairly similar I would always go for east coast for the better facilities on the train. (Such as the buffet). I suspect that will be the same with the competition. Very rarely was their and issue getting seats. The ones starting from north of Edinburgh I typically avoided. Supply will outstrip demand I don't think new journeys will be created. Edinburgh- Manchester could have taken some people off the west coast route but as the flows are the same operator I doubt it. It is a pity patchs don't allow TPE to become semi-fast.

Newcastle, (manors), cramligton, Morpeth, alnmouth, Berwick, Dunbar, Edinburgh every hour. But impossible without building some loops. At least if that happened passengers would have the option of train to travel on more local journeys in the north east.

 

[Senex]

The ones starting from north of Edinburgh I typically avoided. Supply will outstrip demand I don't think new journeys will be created. Edinburgh- Manchester could have taken some people off the west coast route but as the flows are the same operator I doubt it. It is a pity paths don't allow TPE to become semi-fast.

Newcastle, (manors), cramligton, Morpeth, alnmouth, Berwick, Dunbar, Edinburgh every hour. But impossible without building some loops. At least if that happened passengers would have the option of train to travel on more local journeys in the north east.

Does anyone really know what the point of the TP Edinburgh service is? Passengers for Scotland from Liverpool will clearly go West Coast, and there is really no choice for Manchester-Edinburgh passengers either, as even the slow TPE West Coast services will remain significantly faster than the route via Newcastle. Leeds already has an hourly Edinburgh service provided by XC—is there really the potential traffic from Leeds for a half-hourly service. And once in York, you are on the ECML proper. So is it all really for the sake of Huddersfield and Morpeth perhaps?

There's certainly an argument for a proper fast service to link Liverpool and Manchester with Leeds, York, and Newcastle, but does it have to be extended on through to Edinburgh to justify it?

 

[IanXC]

Does anyone really know what the point of the TP Edinburgh service is? Passengers for Scotland from Liverpool will clearly go West Coast, and there is really no choice for Manchester-Edinburgh passengers either, as even the slow TPE West Coast services will remain significantly faster than the route via Newcastle. Leeds already has an hourly Edinburgh service provided by XC—is there really the potential traffic from Leeds for a half-hourly service. And once in York, you are on the ECML proper. So is it all really for the sake of Huddersfield and Morpeth perhaps?

There's certainly an argument for a proper fast service to link Liverpool and Manchester with Leeds, York, and Newcastle, but does it have to be extended on through to Edinburgh to justify it?

Leeds Leeds Leeds!

The XC is very over subscribed!

 

[Iskra]

Leeds Leeds Leeds!

The XC is very over subscribed!

This. The once a day VTEC 0710 Leeds-Aberdeen is also always full in 1st and pretty much empties at Edinburgh. The demand is definitely there.