Blockade to allow Waterloo upgrade to take place, resulting in timetable changes

[TEW]

It's quite possible that certain items of S&C are getting significantly more use than they do normally, and that would be a good way of revealing existing faults...

There are a lot of crossovers between Clapham Junction and London Waterloo that are getting far more use than they would do normally as trains from the Main Line side make their way across to Platforms 11-24.

 

[swt_passenger]

There are a lot of crossovers between Clapham Junction and London Waterloo that are getting far more use than they would do normally as trains from the Main Line side make their way across to Platforms 11-24.

Is the main area of much higher use the crossings connecting all lines just on the London side of international junction?

The opentraintimes map:
http://www.opentraintimes.com/maps/signalling/wat
suggests it is where most of final routeing into the station is sorted out. There are a high number of moves between DMF/UMF and UMR, that's immediately apparent.

Does that ladder have a name, by the way?

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Free ice lollies for SWT passengers, says the news.

Oh, and if I buy a £15 First return from Reading to London Waterloo will it be valid on GWR HSTs? And can I break my journey still, even if it's not the usual route?

 

[wibble]

Free ice lollies for SWT passengers, says the news.

Oh, and if I buy a £15 First return from Reading to London Waterloo will it be valid on GWR HSTs? And can I break my journey still, even if it's not the usual route?

What fare are you looking at for £15? If the route is Any Permitted, you can travel into Waterloo or Paddington; if it's route "Staines" only valid towards Waterloo. If the ticket specifies GWR or SWT, it's only valid with those TOCs.

Either route would be valid for break of journey.

 

[DarloRich]

there has been some very poor reporting in the mainstream media about this blockade. The Daily Star used a picture form a strike in November showing a crowded concourse to illustrate the point. NR challenged them by tweet with a "live" picture to show how things really were

 

[fairysdad]

First day into this for me - surprised at how 'normal' things seemed to be. Admittedly, my usual 30-minute journey was almost doubled (board at 8am, arrive into Waterloo at 8.55) and it was odd arriving onto Platform 19 instead of Platform 1, but it wasn't that unusual a journey... except, again, for using the District Line route between Wimbledon and Clapham Junction!

Trains didn't seem any busier than usual, in fact, my train actually had spare seats in it from Wimbledon onwards, and the Waterloo concourse was nowhere near as busy as the media would have led me believe. That said, it could all be different when I come to go home at 5.30 this evening!

 

[zoneking]

Oh, and if I buy a £15 First return from Reading to London Waterloo will it be valid on GWR HSTs? And can I break my journey still, even if it's not the usual route?

A bit confusing as some tickets are valid via Reading, but not tickets from Reading.


"In addition, during these works, tickets & Smart cards from Basingstoke to London, which are routed “via Woking”, will also be accepted on GWR services between:

- Basingstoke and Reading

- Reading and London Paddington"

 

[TEW]

Is the main area of much higher use the crossings connecting all lines just on the London side of international junction?

The opentraintimes map:
http://www.opentraintimes.com/maps/signalling/wat
suggests it is where most of final routeing into the station is sorted out. There are a high number of moves between DMF/UMF and UMR, that's immediately apparent.

Does that ladder have a name, by the way?

That's one of the areas, yes. West Crossings is the name given to them. Not used much on a normal day, but being heavily used during the blockade.

You also have the ladder at the country end of Queenstown Road stations which allows trains to move from the Windsor Side to the Main Fast Line, and also from the Main Slow Line. Again, not used very much during normal operations, but being used heavily during the blockade.

 

[wibble]

i think it's supposed to mean "Basingstoke to Paddington, via Reading"

 

[swt_passenger]

That's one of the areas, yes. West Crossings is the name given to them. Not used much on a normal day, but being heavily used during the blockade.

You also have the ladder at the country end of Queenstown Road stations which allows trains to move from the Windsor Side to the Main Fast Line, and also from the Main Slow Line. Again, not used very much during normal operations, but being used heavily during the blockade.

Cheers thanks. I also see references here and there to 'Carlisle Lane Junction' - I assume that must be the crossovers with a simpler layout just to the right of West Crossings on the OTT diagram?

 

[spark001uk]

Another points failure this morning, blocking p11-15. Sorted now but services still badly suffering.

 

[Suraggu]

Just gets better and better. Reports of a trespasser in the Vauxhall area.... Oh its going to be a fun shift.

 

[TEW]

Cheers thanks. I also see references here and there to 'Carlisle Lane Junction' - I assume that must be the crossovers with a simpler layout just to the right of West Crossings on the OTT diagram?

That's correct.

 

[infobleep]

The points failures you describe must be on the parts of the infrastructure that are not part of the blockade work, because they are still open. It has never been intended to renew the entire railway under this scheme, has it?

There were some slight changes at Queenstown Rd in advance of the work, but I expect the majority of the route is not being renewed outside normal timescales.

It's quite possible that certain items of S&C are getting significantly more use than they do normally, and that would be a good way of revealing existing faults...

They are on parts that are open but it's possible they were renewed previously during Waterloo weekend engineering works over the last few years. I don't know hence my question.

 

[swt_passenger]

They are on parts that are open but it's possible they were renewed previously during Waterloo weekend engineering works over the last few years. I don't know hence my question.

Yes, but all S&C in such an important area of the railway will be routinely replaced like for like as part of normal business.

I think the normal preventive maintenance periodicities will carry on irrespective of the platform lengthening project, under a separate budget and separate timetable. So if any have been renewed comparatively recently it may just be a coincidence.

The changes I mentioned near Queenstown Road were some sort of upgrade to provide a new flexibility - although I don't know the detail.

 

[DerekC]

Yes, but all S&C in such an important area of the railway will be routinely replaced like for like as part of normal business.

I think the normal preventive maintenance periodicities will carry on irrespective of the platform lengthening project, under a separate budget and separate timetable.

All true in an ideal world ... until a bean counter comes along wanting to life extend the assets to save money. Then it's the lesser used crossings which get postponed ... and then the preventative maintenance periods get extended to save more money.

 

[Searle]

This morning I decided to make use of a faster journey opportunity that doesn't normally exist and catch the 7.53 from Guildford towards Waterloo.

To my surprise it was a 10 car 444 that turned up. I thought they woild run these Portsmouth services as 12 car 450s, given less trains running and the fact most of the time in the peaks they are 12 cars. Are all the 12 cars being used elsewhere?

The train is packed in coach 5 at least with people standing in the asiles and the carriages either side looked packed too. Still I'll save 8 minutes on my journey time if all goes to plan. You wouldn't get a newspaper reporting how happy a commuter was to be having faster journeys during the disruption!

I'd have thought this train would have benefited from 12 cars but maybe that would also be the case for the next one and which one do you prioritise the 12 cars for?

I then boarded an 8.09 from Woking. This had come from Alton and was a 12 car 450. It was busy but there were spare seats in coach 7. Coach 7 today being the 5th coach from the front. I could even rest a bag on one. Wonder what this would have been like as a 10 car train? Of course it's stopping at Surbtion so it might run out if spare seats very soon.

At Surbtion there was a choice of 2x450s. One was going to Wimbledon, Clapham Junction and Waterloo and the other just Waterloo. Of course as the fast train left first, despite arriving second, it seemed that everyone was queueing to be on it. Still by doing that they save 15 minutes over the semi fast. There were no queues into the station but they did have better signage as to which side of the stairs one should use. Hopefully that will remain as a legacy of these works. Whether commuters read them and take note is another matter of course.

Do any of the public facing sites give rolling stock details? Be interested to see which services are 10 cars and which are 12.

Are they able to use nearly all the rolling stock because of train legnthing?

If the 707s had been in operation by now, I assume that would have changed what stock could be used on services and they might have been able to use more 450s on Portsmouth services. I wonder if the commuters who hate 450s enjoy standing on 444s over using a 450?

As a Guildford commuter, the 444's are the bane of my life. Caught the 0653 yesterday, 10 coach 444 was full and standing. Caught the 0707 today, 12 coach 450, completely empty. I would expect Portsmouth & Guildford to be one of the bigger commuter lines on the mainline, especially when they stop at Woking, so I have no idea how 450's are allowed to run.

It's not even in the disruption, the old 0717 before the disruption was a 10 coach 444. Not very happy

Not looking forward to commuting back tonight, will run out of work at 6pm and hope for. The best I suppose

 

[Bald Rick]

Yes, but all S&C in such an important area of the railway will be routinely replaced like for like as part of normal business.

I think the normal preventive maintenance periodicities will carry on irrespective of the platform lengthening project, under a separate budget and separate timetable. So if any have been renewed comparatively recently it may just be a coincidence.

When a set of rarely used points become critical to operation during a blockade such as this one, they are given special attention in the weeks and months beforehand, often getting heavy maintenance upgrades and for example, having componentry replaced well ahead of the normal 'expiry date' so that they are in bulletproof condition for the blockade. Whilst I don't know, I have no doubt that the west crossings and Queenstown Rd ladder will have had additional maintenance in the last few months.

As an example, the Thameslink diversionary route via Herne Hill / Tulse
Hill had tens of millions spent on it in the run up to the 3 year diversion period (now nearly concluded). None of it is particularly visible, but that route has been remarkably reliable as a result.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

When a set of rarely used points become critical to operation during a blockade such as this one, they are given special attention in the weeks and months beforehand, often getting heavy maintenance upgrades and for example, having componentry replaced well ahead of the normal 'expiry date' so that they are in bulletproof condition for the blockade. Whilst I don't know, I have no doubt that the west crossings and Queenstown Rd ladder will have had additional maintenance in the last few months.

As an example, the Thameslink diversionary route via Herne Hill / Tulse
Hill had tens of millions spent on it in the run up to the 3 year diversion period (now nearly concluded). None of it is particularly visible, but that route has been remarkably reliable as a result.

Agreed on the TLK route via the Palace and the Hills , I can only recall one infrastructure failure - Leighham JUnction points I think , and the skill of timetabling 4 TPH refugees from the Sydenham Corridor , and the equal skills of the signalling staff in keeping things on the move has been commendable. And I really mean that.

 

[Searle]

Currently on a packed train, waiting outside Woking because two trains to Basingstoke are currently in the platforms at the same time. Who decided that people on stations to Basingstoke needed two services simultaneously departing?

 

[infobleep]

All true in an ideal world ... until a bean counter comes along wanting to life extend the assets to save money. Then it's the lesser used crossings which get postponed ... and then the preventative maintenance periods get extended to save more money.

This may sound like a silly question but are you talking about the periods between preventative maintenance or the fact they carry out maintaince to extend the life of something rather than replacing it when it's life expired?

I hadn't considered the fact less used points might suddenly fail due to their sudden increased usage. It makes sense. I'm sure the staff managing the works would have expected it or at last knew their was a strong chance.

If it wasn't for coming on here, I doubt I'd appreciate why the issues were occurring. I doubt much of the public are aware. If it carries on I think it might be worth explaining. They do put up useful explanations of things how. Usually a click through link so that those who don't want to know can ignore it. I applaud such things.

Tonight one train I intended to catch, a semi-fast service, made up some time and thought my a fault of my own, I was looking something up enroute to station, I missed it. I then got a stopping train which didn't make up any lost time and just got further delayed.

I then had a theory that the fast services are more likely to make up time if previously delayed between Waterloo and Clapham Junction, than the stopping services.

Alas the next connecting train I got, which was a fast service, didn't make up any time. It actually lost time towards Woking. So there went that theory. Lol.

The trains weren't to packed this evening that I couldn't get a seat.

On one of the week day evenings during the works I reckon I shall be hitting Clapham Junction around 17.30, so be interesting to see what it's like at that time.

 

[Siemens Staines]

Do any of the public facing sites give rolling stock details? Be interested to see which services are 10 cars and which are 12.

live-departures usually has the correct number of coaches for the majority of SWT trains and includes the modified number of coaches when trains are short formed. It is not always correct though, but on the occasions its not the PIS on the station platform is usually wrong also.

https://live-departures.info/rail/v2.ldbsvws/

Its one draw back is that it only gives the next ten trains, or two hours if there are not ten trains within that time. So at a station like Waterloo that means it will usually only be for a few minutes in advance.

Whether or not First/MTR use live-departures after the franchise change remains to be seen. GWR stock formations are on tiger but not live-departures whilst SWT stations are not on tiger.

 

[infobleep]

As a Guildford commuter, the 444's are the bane of my life. Caught the 0653 yesterday, 10 coach 444 was full and standing. Caught the 0707 today, 12 coach 450, completely empty. I would expect Portsmouth & Guildford to be one of the bigger commuter lines on the mainline, especially when they stop at Woking, so I have no idea how 450's are allowed to run.

It's not even in the disruption, the old 0717 before the disruption was a 10 coach 444. Not very happy

Not looking forward to commuting back tonight, will run out of work at 6pm and hope for. The best I suppose

Given the 10 car had people standing and the 12 car was empty, that would suggest the line could do with all the services being 12 car. I realise they might not have enough 450s to do that, hence the 10 car 444s being used.

Whist I prefer the 444s, they are not the most user friendly when it comes to people having to stand.

I see the 6.53 comes from Portsmouth and the 7.07 from Haslemere. It would be helpful if the 12 cars could have been used for the 6.53, as that covers more stations and more stations means more people.

Given that isn't the case, I wonder if SWT could put up info on the best trains for commuters to catch. This way they might help spread the load of passengers arriving into London or other destinations. That's assuming communters would read it and switch. Maybe I'm being to optimistic.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Is there any difference in the point motors used for lightly used points compared with heavily used points?

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Is there any difference in the point motors used for lightly used points compared with heavily used points?

No expert , (though I have wound over "failed" points several times !) - one would expect the approaches to a very major London terminus to have the highest specification in terms of robustness and maintenance ,compared to say the passing loop points at Llandeilo on the Heart of Wales line.

 

[infobleep]

Currently on a packed train, waiting outside Woking because two trains to Basingstoke are currently in the platforms at the same time. Who decided that people on stations to Basingstoke needed two services simultaneously departing?

I was going to say that will be due to one train being more delayed than another. However although both trains were late, I see one is due to depart Woking at 18.47 and the other at 18.49 today they both departed 18.55.

The 18.47 departs 17.55 and stops at Clapham Junction, Surbiton, Walton on Thames, Weybridge, Woking and then all stations to Basingstoke.

The 18.49 departs 18.16 and stops at West Byfleet, Woking and then all stations to Basingstoke. One of them would have been held at the junction south of Woking because they can't both use the same Brookwood platform at the same time.

Although they depart within 2 minutes of one another, the 18.47 is timed to arrive into Basingstoke at 19.27, whereas the 18.49 is timed to arrive 19.33. Thus the gap widens to 6 minutes.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

As a Guildford commuter, the 444's are the bane of my life. Caught the 0653 yesterday, 10 coach 444 was full and standing. Caught the 0707 today, 12 coach 450, completely empty. I would expect Portsmouth & Guildford to be one of the bigger commuter lines on the mainline, especially when they stop at Woking, so I have no idea how 450's are allowed to run.

It's not even in the disruption, the old 0717 before the disruption was a 10 coach 444. Not very happy

Not looking forward to commuting back tonight, will run out of work at 6pm and hope for. The best I suppose

As a Guildford commuter, the 450's are the bane of mylife. Why oh why is it that whenever I get a train to London its always a four car 450? Trust me, I'd be happy with a five car 444, let alone 10 cars! That's why I always plump for Farnborough Main instead.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

What fare are you looking at for £15? If the route is Any Permitted, you can travel into Waterloo or Paddington; if it's route "Staines" only valid towards Waterloo. If the ticket specifies GWR or SWT, it's only valid with those TOCs.

Either route would be valid for break of journey.

It would likely be a via Staines or SWT ticket, but SWT say GWR are accepting their tickets to London via any reasonable route!

Oh, and Under 15's Off Peak Day Return.

 

[Bald Rick]

Is there any difference in the point motors used for lightly used points compared with heavily used points?

In terms of design, not really. For the last 20 years the majority of new points (including those renewed) have been fitted with one of three types of points operating equipment. Each has a very different design, with one type (HPSA) generally only found on higher speed tracks. This type has also fallen out of favour in the last few years.

But, for a given type of equipment, let's say Clamplocks (the most common type south of London) there is no difference in design for a given design of turnout between a set that is swung once every 2 years, and a set swung once every 2 minutes. The maintenance regime will, however be rather different, both for the clamplock, and the ironwork that it is attached to.

 

[Bald Rick]

Meanwhile, work at Waterloo is proceeding at pace - a fair bit of the new track is in, and the foundations for some of the walls of the extended platforms have been poured.