Is extending the 2nd half of an off-peak day return allowed?

[Any_Permitted]

Hello everyone, been lurking this forum for a while but this is my first post! Have a question about ticketing:

Yesterday I was travelling on the Southern network, starting at Chichester to visit a friend at Littlehampton. I bought my off-peak day return with my 16-25 railcard.

Literally as soon as the train pulled away (how annoying!) my friend texted me to say due to the bad weather we should meet up in Portsmouth and do something there. So I hopped off the train at Barnham, and exited the station; the barriers allowed the break of journey.

In a situation like this I'd board a train to Portsmouth, find the guard before Chichester and ask to buy my ticket there. I always believed this was acceptable, as long as you approach the guard before your current ticket expires. However, as Chichester was the next stop, I didn't want to risk missing the guard and travelling ticketless, so I went to the Barnham ticket office.

I presented my railcard and RTN portion from Littlehampton to Chichester, and asked if I could buy a day return from Chichester to Portsmouth Harbour.

The lady behind the counter was really nice and said that she'd do that for me this time, but that I was supposed to do this on the outward part of my return journey. She took my RTN portion and held it up to the computer screen, while asking where I had come from. I explained my story, she sold me an Off peak day return from Chichester to Portsmouth Harbour, I boarded the train and everything was great after that.

I suppose I've never heard of such a rule existing. I can see it from the TOC's view: how did they know I didn't pick my Littlehampton to Chichester ticket off the floor, and using it to save money on my fare? But had I gone to a Southern TVM, I could have bought tickets from another station, or I could have just approached the guard before Chichester.

I have never been aware of such a rule existing on return tickets, because I've always been allowed to do it on board the train - but after reading some posts in this forum, that doesn't always mean I'm in the right!

So I suppose my two questions are:

1.) Am I allowed to ask for a ticket from another station to extend the return portion of my off-peak return?

2.) If I'm not allowed to, and a similar situation arises, am I therefore expected to just buy a ticket to Portsmouth from Barnham, therefore paying twice for Barnham to Chichester?

 

[yorkie]

Welcome

I don't understand what is meant by "extending" the ticket, as I don't think you are asking for an excess fare. What you are actually doing is using two or more tickets for one journey, which is combining multiple tickets, not extending tickets.

You are entitled to purchase a Chichester to Portsmouth ticket at Barnham, and to then combine this with a pre-existing ticket for one journey (or even to make your own way to Chichester by another form of transport, to commence your rail journey there!)

If you asked to "extend" the ticket, the booking clerk probably thought you meant "excess" the ticket, and that means the response you got makes some sense, but if you simply asked for a Chichester to Portsmouth Harbour ticket, as you say, then the response makes no sense.

Some ticket office staff make such transactions awkward; the solution to avoid an awkward discussion with a ticket clerk is to purchase from a ticket vending machine where possible (as in this case) or buy online & collect.

There is absolutely no requirement to hold two tickets between Barnham & Chichester!

 

[JB_B]

Hello everyone, been lurking this forum for a while but this is my first post! Have a question about ticketing:
...
So I suppose my two questions are:

1.) Am I allowed to ask for a ticket from another station to extend the return portion of my off-peak return?

2.) If I'm not allowed to, and a similar situation arises, am I therefore expected to just buy a ticket to Portsmouth from Barnham, therefore paying twice for Barnham to Chichester?

(1) Yes. I have no idea what Barnham's issue with this could have been.

(2) N/A

 

[Any_Permitted]

You are entitled to purchase a Chichester to Portsmouth ticket at Barnham, and to then combine this with a pre-existing ticket for one journey (or even to make your own way to Chichester by another form of transport, to commence your rail journey there!)

If you asked to "extend" the ticket, the booking clerk probably thought you meant "excess" the ticket, and that means the response you got makes some sense, but if you simply asked for a Chichester to Portsmouth Harbour ticket, as you say, then the response makes no sense.

Thanks very much for the reply. I did ask for a Chichester - Portsmouth Harbour ticket but I'm pretty sure I did throw the word "extend" in there which could be interpreted as "excess"... hence the response from the ticket seller. It's great to hear that I AM allowed to buy extra tickets as I did. I shall certainly take your advice and use the machine in the future - to save time explaining!

Thanks for your response JB_B as well - great to hear I can buy extra tickets.

 

[paddington]

However, as Chichester was the next stop, I didn't want to risk missing the guard and travelling ticketless, so I went to the Barnham ticket office.

Yes, of course it made sense to buy the second ticket at Barnham since you were already waiting, but if you didn't do this and the guard didn't come round, surely you would just have exited the train at Chichester and bought your new ticket there?

As others have said there was no need to mention your existing ticket (i.e. the Littlehampton-Chichester return portion).

If you were asked how you were getting from Barnham to Chichester, then that is the time to present the first ticket, although strictly speaking the answer should be "none of your business". And personally I've never been asked to show a ticket from A to B, when buying tickets at A for travel from B to C (when as in your case the order of stations is A-B-C on the same line).

 

[bb21]

, although strictly speaking the answer should be "none of your business".

You can, although I am not quite sure what this approach is supposed to achieve, apart from potentially causing an unnecessary scene. It is a fairly standard question. It is absolutely fine if you wish to say, "I am making my own way there." Questions like these are not meant to inconvenience the customer unnecessarily. There may be cheaper ways than selling an extra ticket if the customer already held a ticket sometimes, for example.

Nothing to gain apart from satisfying a bit of self-righteous ego and awkwardness, but plenty of scope for things to escalate, completely unnecessarily.

 

[paddington]

You can, although I am not quite sure what this approach is supposed to achieve, apart from potentially causing an unnecessary scene. It is a fairly standard question. It is absolutely fine if you wish to say, "I am making my own way there." Questions like these are not meant to inconvenience the customer unnecessarily. There may be cheaper ways than selling an extra ticket if the customer already held a ticket sometimes, for example.

Hence I said "strictly speaking" although that may not have been exactly the right words to use.

As I said I have never been asked. If I am asked one day, I will happily show my existing ticket (unless it is something where validity is not immediately obvious and has a chance of causing trouble).

 

[gray1404]

What exactly were you told? Did the additional ticket(s) you were given have the word EXCESS on them?

 

[Any_Permitted]

What exactly were you told? Did the additional ticket(s) you were given have the word EXCESS on them?

Hi, the conversation went like this:

Me: *presents RTN ticket and railcard* Hello, this ticket covers me to Chichester, and please could I extend it by buying a return from Chichester to Portsmouth Harbour.

Lady: *takes ticket, holds it up and stares at it for a few seconds* Ok, I'm going to do this for you this time, but you're supposed to have done this before, on the outward journey.

Me: Ah ok, I see, thanks very much for doing it for me.

Lady: *holding ticket up at computer screen* So... you started at Chichester, and you travelled to Littlehampton?

Me: Not quite, I started at Chichester, and broke my journey here at Barnham as I had a change of plans with a friend. I'm now due to meet him in Portsmouth.

Lady: Ok, I'm so sorry, which station were you travelling to again?

Me: Portsmouth Harbour.

Lady: Thanks, that will be £5.55 please. *gives ticket back* You'll need your Littlehampton - Chichester ticket for the first part of the journey.

Me: Brilliant, thanks so much.


The tickets did not have "excess" written on them. I have attached a picture of them. I was not sold an excess fare, instead a completely separate Off-peak day return.

Having now read some of the responses on this post, I understand that I wasn't entitled to an excess fare in this situation, but I am completely allowed to use multiple tickets to complete a journey in this way. So if the clerk was basically saying "You can't do this but I'll do it for you this time", then that suggests I was sold the excess (which is not allowed) instead of an extra return ticket (which is allowed). It doesn't quite tally.

 

[father_jack]

So if the clerk was basically saying "You can't do this but I'll do it for you this time", then that suggests I was sold the excess (which is not allowed) instead of an extra return ticket (which is allowed). It doesn't quite tally.

Snipped.....

Isn't it allowed ?

Extending/excessing over distance the return half has been done to death before. Nobody has ever come up with a firm ruling. What's the destination on a return portion ????

Fujitsu STAR in a ticket office lets you excess it........

The OP wanted a return from Chichester to Portsmouth agreed, so the point may be superfluous in this case.

 

[Haywain]

As you've shown it, it seems to me that she started off by saying she couldn't do an excess, but then realised it wasn't an excess after clarifying what you had done. Having said "I'm going to do this for you this time" there would be little point in telling you that she had been wrong about not being able to do it.

 

[gray1404]

I agree. She realised it was not an excess he was after so sold a new ticket.

However, had the circumstances been different and he did require an excess, she is wrong to say that it must be done before the start of the outward journey.

 

[najaB]

However, had the circumstances been different and he did require an excess, she is wrong to say that it must be done before the start of the outward journey.

Would she have been wrong? An excess is the process by which one fare is converted to another fare by paying the additional (or excess) amount due.

If I understand things correctly, the three stations are A B C and the OP had a B-C return ticket.

Since there is no fare for B-C (out) C-A (via B, return) the correct thing to do seems to be to excess the B-C return into a A-C return.

If this is correct then the logical time for this to be done was before the outward portion was used.

 

[gray1404]

Sounds like there was some confusion at the booking office window.

 

[Any_Permitted]

Thank you everyone who replied, this forum is a fantastic place for getting answers to ticketting issues! It indeed sounds like confusion occurred, but as a result I now know I can ask for tickets from any station at a booking office!

As you've shown it, it seems to me that she started off by saying she couldn't do an excess, but then realised it wasn't an excess after clarifying what you had done. Having said "I'm going to do this for you this time" there would be little point in telling you that she had been wrong about not being able to do it.

My memory completely agrees with this, this is definitely the most probable thing that happened. Good to know that the booking clerk acted correctly, it was merely just confusion in communication (I shall not be using the word "extend" unless I want an excess!).

 

[TrainfanBen]

The clerk and ticket exchange seems fairly normal. The OP got the right ticket.


I'm confused why the friend suddenly changed their mind about meeting in Littlehampton?
Suddenly they want to meet in Portsmouth? The distance between the two is nigh 30 miles... They could have travelled together or met somewhere in between?

30 miles diffence in meeting place seems odd.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The railway doesn't exist to question why people want to make specific journeys. It exists to let them make the journeys they want to make...

 

[Deerfold]

I'm confused why the friend suddenly changed their mind about meeting in Littlehampton?
Suddenly they want to meet in Portsmouth? The distance between the two is nigh 30 miles... They could have travelled together or met somewhere in between?

30 miles diffence in meeting place seems odd.

The OP mentioned poor weather. Perhaps the weather was better 30 miles away or Portsmouth had something inside that they wanted to do.

 

[Harbouring]

The clerk and ticket exchange seems fairly normal. The OP got the right ticket.


I'm confused why the friend suddenly changed their mind about meeting in Littlehampton?
Suddenly they want to meet in Portsmouth? The distance between the two is nigh 30 miles... They could have travelled together or met somewhere in between?

30 miles diffence in meeting place seems odd.

If OP's friend lives in Portsmouth and was travelling to LittleH with other friends or family in a car and OP was meeting them there but the weather was poor and there is not much to do in LittleH in the rain, nor in any of the towns along the coast so decided to meet in Pompey which has a lot more activities inside (Gunwharf etc.)

 

[TrainfanBen]

The railway doesn't exist to question why people want to make specific journeys. It exists to let them make the journeys they want to make...

I knew I was going to get at least one response like that

Curious is all.