Where has my favourite route gone?

[maffi209]

I often travel Euston - Sankey changing at Crewe and Liverpool South Parkway. Usual timing of a weekday journey are:

1240 EUS - CRE (arr 1410)
1433 CRE - LPY (arr 1500)
1509 LPY - SNK (arr 1528)

The individual trains still exist but the journey planner on Virgin Trains no longer throws up this selection of trains as a possible journey. Instead it either wants me to go via WBQ (considerably more expensive), LIV (longer journey time), or changing at CRE and LPY but with much lengthier interchange times and therefore a greatly increased journey time.

What is going on? Is there anything I can do to persuade the journey planner to give me the journey I want (and have used regularly for several years)?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

What ticket are you trying to buy, and on what date?
If it's a walk-up ticket you can still use those trains and ignore the planners (while observing any ticket restrictions).

If it's during the upcoming Lime St upgrade works, the timetable at Liverpool South Parkway on all routes will be altered, so don't expect connectional times to be the same between 30 September and 22 October.
Journey planners will have the new times for those dates.

 

[maffi209]

In this instance I am looking for the journey on 31 August and trying to buy an advanced fare as cheaply as possible. [I work for a small charity and this route is considerably cheaper than via WBQ so I always opt for it when on business].

But the route seems to have disappeared as an option for advanced fares regardless of what date I put into journey planner.

 

[Paul Kelly]

The minimum connection time at Liverpool South Parkway was increased from 7 to 10 minutes recently, so this is no longer a valid itinerary and you won't be able to get advances on it. If I were you I would complain to London Midland and Northern.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Are you booked on a specific Northern service to/from Parkway?
I've seen Virgin Advances to Scotland which don't specify a specific connecting Scotrail service.
In such cases you can use what local train you want (ie take the risk of missing the LPY connection), as long as you catch the booked train(s) on the ticket (ie LM and VT).
It all depends on what is printed on the ticket, and you can't know that without buying one!
If no specific Northern service is specified you can still follow your route (but there is a connectional risk).

 

[Paul Kelly]

The Liverpool South Parkway to Sankey services are reservable unfortunately, so will show on the ticket. What you could do is book onto the train an hour later (e.g. use https://new.trainsplit.com/, select advanced options, Go Via Liverpool South Parkway, click on "change at" and type in 45 for the "extra mins" value) and then ask the guard on the 1509 service if he's OK with you using it to avoid the 69-minute wait that you would otherwise have.

But I still think you should complain about this.

 

[maffi209]

The minimum connection time at Liverpool South Parkway was increased from 7 to 10 minutes recently, so this is no longer a valid itinerary and you won't be able to get advances on it. If I were you I would complain to London Midland and Northern.

I feared this would be the case. So maddening on a journey I have happily made for years. Will drop Northern and LM a line to grumble about it.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I can see your dilemma.
There are Advances on the day of £23 via LPY, but £42 via WBQ/WAC.
Booking to WBQ saves a couple of £.
You can also book via Manchester and get a fare like £32.
This means changing twice (at Piccadilly/Oxford Road or Piccadilly/Warrington Central).
Presumably bus/taxi from WBQ would be quicker than walking across town for the CLC connection.
You are also going to be affected by the opening of nearby Warrington West next year - Sankey will then be reduced to peak services only.

 

[maffi209]

You are also going to be affected by the opening of nearby Warrington West next year - Sankey will then be reduced to peak services only.

Trying not to think about this sad prospect

 

[northwichcat]

Just looking at 31st August you can currently get a LM only Advance 12:46 Euston to South Parkway changing at Stafford for £12. You can also get a £4.40 single from South Parkway to Sankey and the entire journey will be covered via your preferred route for £16.40 without having to wait for an hour anywhere or pay £30+ to go via Warrington.

Are you booked on a specific Northern service to/from Parkway?

Northern routes where Advances are available do generate specific service bookings without seat reservations and they've made Advances available for both Liverpool to Manchester routes.

 

[maffi209]

Just looking at 31st August you can currently get a LM only Advance 12:46 Euston to South Parkway changing at Stafford for £12. You can also get a £4.40 single from South Parkway to Sankey and the entire journey will be covered via your preferred route for £16.40 without having to wait for an hour anywhere or pay £30+ to go via Warrington.

LM only never before occurred to me. Thanks for the tip

 

[Joe Paxton]

The minimum connection time at Liverpool South Parkway was increased from 7 to 10 minutes recently, so this is no longer a valid itinerary and you won't be able to get advances on it. If I were you I would complain to London Midland and Northern.

I can absolutely understand the OP's frustration here... however, presuambly the increase in minimum connection time was for a reason rather than just to frustrate people.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I can absolutely understand the OP's frustration here... however, presuambly the increase in minimum connection time was for a reason rather than just to frustrate people.

To be honest, at most stations anything less than 10 minutes is unduly stressful unless it is one that physically can't be/very rarely is anything other than same or cross platform (e.g. between slow-line trains at Leighton Buzzard to go to/from Bletchley a bit quicker).

With the slightly odd layout and long walk to/from the Northern Line this probably does make sense, annoying though it is to the OP.

 

[tony_mac]

I can absolutely understand the OP's frustration here... however, presuambly the increase in minimum connection time was for a reason rather than just to frustrate people.

The only issue I can imagine is with changes between the main line station and the Merseyrail station - which is quite a long walk.

It's probably not a massively common connection at the moment (at least on advance tickets), but perhaps they have made changes anticipating the Lime Street closure?

 

[yorkie]

I can absolutely understand the OP's frustration here... however, presumably the increase in minimum connection time was for a reason rather than just to frustrate people.

That may not be the aim but it's a rather obvious outcome!

I would also complain.

(People who want more interchange time can request it at the time of booking; I think most people would be happy to give a sensible connection a try, and be eligible for Delay Repay if delays occur and the connection is missed!)

 

[mrmartin]

Could you not get a London Midland route only super off peak for £32 to LPY then off peak return to Sankey?

Should.be about £40 rtn total and valid on any super off peak train - much more flexible than an advance which is only marginally cheaper (assuming you want a return).

 

[Starmill]

I wonder if they could set up a connection so that it had a reduced connection time if it is not to or from Merseyrail.

It is commonplace for shorter connection times to apply if travel is restricted to a certain TOC.

Cardiff Central used to have an easement for reduced connection times if they were between Valley Lines services (although I don't think this was ever included in the data).

 

[gray1404]

I have been having problems with the connection time at LPY for a number of year. It has always been 7 minutes. This is enough time to get from any of the platforms. Including from the Merseyrail Northern line to platform one and anything inbetween.

I once had a case where the last LM from BHM was delayed and I made it clear to staff at BHM that I was worried about missing the last connection of the day. Network Rail insisted my itinerary was not valid, even though it was produced by National Rail website, because it didn't allow enough time to change at LPY.

I complained to various parties. Network Rail insisted the TRUST system said 10 minutes but that the booking engines were applying 7 minutes incorrectly. They later backed down and said I was correct that it was 7 (however before doing this they also wrote to me saying that had checked with the Merseyrail to confirmed it was 10). London Midland refunded the taxi that I had to pay out for. Merseyrail, I complained to them for giving incorrect information to NR, at first said that I didn't have a valid itinerary as I didn't allow 10 minutes at LPY. They then backed down when I escalated my case.

It now appears that it has been officially changed to 10 minutes and, sadly, that makes connecting off the last LM arrival from BHM (and thus Stafford if coming by LM from EUS) an invalid connection onto the last Merseyrail heading North. I do not agree with the change. I thought 7 minutes was reasonable. It took into account that maybe 5 minutes would be too short as it is not a small station but then 10 is too longer because it is not a massive terminus either.

Who would one complain to? Who makes the decision about minimum connection times? Is it Network Rail or would it be Merseyrail as a operator of the station?

 

[maffi209]

Who would one complain to? Who makes the decision about minimum connection times? Is it Network Rail or would it be Merseyrail as a operator of the station?

Just checked with Merseyrail and they tell me that Network Rail are responsible for minimum connection times.

 

[tony_mac]

It took into account that maybe 5 minutes would be too short as it is not a small station but then 10 is too longer because it is not a massive terminus either.

It depends on how mobile you are. If you are going to be getting off a Pendolino in the wrong place, it could easily be a 300m walk.

At tfl's slow walking speed, that's a 6 minute walk - with three lifts / escalators and 2 gatelines to get through (and the doors may close before the departure time).

It does really need an option for non-Merseyrail connections, as it makes a big difference.

 

[gray1404]

My view is that it should have stayed at 7 minutes. The majority of the public are not slow and it is not right that the slowest of the slow should set the pace for all (and thus deny people of connections). Alternatively, it could be reduced back to 7 minutes at time of day like the evening to enable people to make last connections.

Access to Merseyrail is simply down the stairs, through the gateline and across to the other gateline the other side of the hall and down the stairs. In reality its an additional 30 to 60 seconds for most. It is not big deal.

 

[xotGD]

So by changing the minimum connection time from 7 to 10 minutes, the potential need to pay for passengers' taxis if the last arrival of the day is late and misses the last departure has been eliminated. I think that explains things.

 

[yorkie]

The potential for taxis has been reduced but it can never be eliminated.

They have also reduced the competitiveness of rail travel by increasing journey times. This, combined with unfair fare rises, will deter people travelling by rail.

If they are concerned about the connection time between the Merseyrail platforms and the mainline platforms, they could introduce a differential, as exists at other stations.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

With the slightly odd layout and long walk to/from the Northern Line this probably does make sense, annoying though it is to the OP.

But Sankey-Parkway is on a Northern train so it's just up and over at Parkway.
3 minutes tops.

 

[Bletchleyite]

But Sankey-Parkway is on a Northern train so it's just up and over at Parkway.
3 minutes tops.

Yeah, can the system handle different times between different platforms? Maybe time it did. There are for example connections that can be very safely made in 1 minute or less - ones where the trains will end up the right way round for operational reasons (because not holding the connection at Ledburn would cause massive knock-on delay, say) and where they can't (to all intents and purposes) be anything other than same platform - LM/SN to LM/SN at Leighton Buzzard is a good one - 1 minute is quite enough, if it goes wrong it goes VERY wrong so the difference between 1 and 5 minutes is insignificant.

 

[tony_mac]

Yeah, can the system handle different times between different platforms?

Not different platforms, but it can do different TOCs, which would solve the problem here.
(E.g.; Gatwick is 10 minutes, or 5 minutes if the connection involves only Southern / SouthEastern)

As an aside - are minimum connection times still published anywhere? I couldn't see them in the National Rail timetable pdfs, or on National Rail (I used BRTimes).

Access to Merseyrail is simply down the stairs, through the gateline and across to the other gateline the other side of the hall and down the stairs. In reality its an additional 30 to 60 seconds for most. It is not big deal.

I don't think that is really representative. The difference is the equivalent of 6 flights of stairs, 150 yards, and two ticket barriers - that's not an easy 60 seconds for many people (and 30 seconds would be seriously impressive, particularly up the stairs!).
I wasn't talking about the 'slowest of the slow', but the large portion of the population who are just a little slower than average or may need to wait for the lifts (and noting that the arrival of Pendolini will extend the walking distances somewhat).

 

[Paul Kelly]

As an aside - are minimum connection times still published anywhere?

I think Merseytravel printed timetables show them when they differ from the standard 5 minutes. I've just checked a City Line timetable which I picked up while in Liverpool last year and it clearly shows South Parkway as having a 7 minute connection time.

 

[swt_passenger]

The minimum connection time at Liverpool South Parkway was increased from 7 to 10 minutes recently, so this is no longer a valid itinerary and you won't be able to get advances on it. If I were you I would complain to London Midland and Northern.

Just seen this - it seems odd - as far as I can tell it isn't that large a station. I noticed somewhere recently that Reading is still only 7 mins despite the relatively much larger size...

 

[infobleep]

Just seen this - it seems odd - as far as I can tell it isn't that large a station. I noticed somewhere recently that Reading is still only 7 mins despite the relatively much larger size...

I find some of the station connect times odd. Gatwick is 10 minutes if getting on or off a Great Western Railway train to any of the Govia Thameslink Railway branded ones. That seems excessive, given Govia Thameslink Railway trains to other ones of those is only 5 minutes and some of their services share the same platforms as the GWR trains.

Perhaps 5 minutes isn't long enough though. At Wimbledon and Surbtion the connection time is 6 minutes. At East Croydon though it's 5 minutes.

 

[adrock1976]

I remember Birmingham New Street being 15 minutes minimum interchange time. For some strange reason, it has been reduced to 12 minutes in recent times.