VTWC Coach K single seats

[Chester1]

I would suggest that if several people were to email Virgin about this very specific issue, they may well do something about it.

Aggreed. As a community we could most likely put a stop to it by keeping a record and then sending to the relevant opperators or perhaps to Rail magazine.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I would suggest that if several people were to email Virgin about this very specific issue, they may well do something about it.

I believe the Coach C seats are meant to be kept empty for special assistance, I expect the reason they allowed it in this case is that there was nobody booked at that point.

OTOH, I did put it to Virgin about the Coach K seats and they confirmed that staff blocking them is not policy. Which suggests they have a management issue. I think they should stop it by making Coach K reservable and moving unreserved seats to part of another coach.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

What do you think would happen to EasyJet's business model if the back row of their flights was reserved for the crew to have a break?
Ultimately, it's unsustainable as a business practice, especially with your premium product.

 

[LowLevel]

What do you think would happen to EasyJet's business model if the back row of their flights was reserved for the crew to have a break?
Ultimately, it's unsustainable as a business practice, especially with your premium product.

With first class generally less full than standard it works out far cheaper in rostering terms to allow your staff to take a break and seats in first class with the kitchen etc than it does to give them all personal needs breaks off the train.

They should however simply have a 'staff bay' labelled up to avoid any confusion or debate.

As I say I'm still tickled by the theoretical desirability of the single seats though as on other routes they're always the very last seats to go!

 

[BestWestern]

With first class generally less full than standard it works out far cheaper in rostering terms to allow your staff to take a break and seats in first class with the kitchen etc than it does to give them all personal needs breaks off the train.

They should however simply have a 'staff bay' labelled up to avoid any confusion or debate.

As I say I'm still tickled by the theoretical desirability of the single seats though as on other routes they're always the very last seats to go!

Not always... the single seat by the Guard's office door in Coach A on GWR HSTs is much in demand!

 

[Bletchleyite]

With first class generally less full than standard it works out far cheaper in rostering terms to allow your staff to take a break and seats in first class with the kitchen etc than it does to give them all personal needs breaks off the train.

They should however simply have a 'staff bay' labelled up to avoid any confusion or debate.

The double airline seats in coach K could be used for that purpose as they are very unpopular. There are I think 3 or 4 rows, the back two rows would do the job just fine.

 

[Cantab26]

I may confess that I do not understand why it should be necessary to provide staff seating on any of the routes served by Virgin Trains West Coast. When I worked as a waiter we would normally be expected to work a four-hour shift without sitting down.

I would be genuinely intrigued to hear an explanation as to why First Class stewards should be treated differently in this regard.

 

[driver_m]

I may confess that I do not understand why it should be necessary to provide staff seating on any of the routes served by Virgin Trains West Coast. When I worked as a waiter we would normally be expected to work a four-hour shift without sitting down.

I would be genuinely intrigued to hear an explanation as to why First Class stewards should be treated differently in this regard.

If they're on a four tripper for instance. Train running late. Are you suggesting they should never sit down? They don't necessarily get to the messroom as they don't have the same requirements for a PNB as a driver, but as a human being, they need a break.

 

[LowLevel]

I may confess that I do not understand why it should be necessary to provide staff seating on any of the routes served by Virgin Trains West Coast. When I worked as a waiter we would normally be expected to work a four-hour shift without sitting down.

I would be genuinely intrigued to hear an explanation as to why First Class stewards should be treated differently in this regard.

Because they work much longer than 4 hour shifts (I believe more than 12 in some cases) and doing this saves rostering them a break off the train allowing them to have less staff. Working on a moving train serving is also more physically demanding because your body compensates for the movement of the train.

Their contracts permit them breaks and this is how their employer chooses to provide them.

 

[RAPC]

The double airline seats in coach K could be used for that purpose as they are very unpopular. There are I think 3 or 4 rows, the back two rows would do the job just fine.

Politely put, sod off

Those are my first choices normally and are often heavily in demand. The back row often i used for crew, but don't throw another option in to the mix thankyou!

 

[Cantab26]

Because they work much longer than 4 hour shifts (I believe more than 12 in some cases) and doing this saves rostering them a break off the train allowing them to have less staff. Working on a moving train serving is also more physically demanding because your body compensates for the movement of the train.

Their contracts permit them breaks and this is how their employer chooses to provide them.

Thank you for this explanation.

 

[tiptoptaff]

AS travelling staff, there is no obligation for me to give up my seat for the convenience of a passenger, only if there are no other seats available on the train as a whole, not just the coach I am in. I once had one ask (well, demand) I vacate the seat I was in as there was no one sat next to me, and he didn't want to sit next to someone (most other double seats in the coach were occupied by at least one person) So I gave up my window seat and sat next to him on the aisle seat. He then demanded I move and told him no. I told him if he didn't want to sit next to someone, he should consider driving, and that as the train was fairly well loaded, he would likely have someone sat next to him anyway from the next stop 10minutes away. He then told me he was going to make a complaint about the incident. Childish.

I dislike the attitude passengers have towards staff when we're travelling. You wouldn't speak to any other passenger the way that you speak to me, so why should you speak to me like that? And if you would, then you need to take a look at yourself.

 

[Bletchleyite]

AS travelling staff, there is no obligation for me to give up my seat for the convenience of a passenger, only if there are no other seats available on the train as a whole, not just the coach I am in.

That isn't so much the issue, though, as reserving the seats while not occupying them and with no intention of occupying them any time soon (i.e. not just gone to the buffet/bog).

 

[Wolfie]

AS travelling staff, there is no obligation for me to give up my seat for the convenience of a passenger, only if there are no other seats available on the train as a whole, not just the coach I am in. I once had one ask (well, demand) I vacate the seat I was in as there was no one sat next to me, and he didn't want to sit next to someone (most other double seats in the coach were occupied by at least one person) So I gave up my window seat and sat next to him on the aisle seat. He then demanded I move and told him no. I told him if he didn't want to sit next to someone, he should consider driving, and that as the train was fairly well loaded, he would likely have someone sat next to him anyway from the next stop 10minutes away. He then told me he was going to make a complaint about the incident. Childish.

I dislike the attitude passengers have towards staff when we're travelling. You wouldn't speak to any other passenger the way that you speak to me, so why should you speak to me like that? And if you would, then you need to take a look at yourself.

The passenger behaviour in that example was wholly unacceptable. Why would anyone assume that they have a right to at least two seats?

Give it a rest will you, all you've done is bleat on about how you pay full first class fares, I'm willing to bet you get good advance purchases as well. A lot of people on this thread must be really important as all of a sudden they've become experts on job roles of on train staff.

Actively wanting staff disciplined and possibly sacked.... Ive heard it all now.

Hmmm...so staff are more important than the paying customers are they? Frankly any staff with such an attitude deserve to be sacked.

 

[AlterEgo]

TM's do not get 1st class travel passes I can assure you.

Some do! Depends on length of service at at least one TOC...

 

[boxy321]

I'm in a dual airline seat right now in K. Don't sit by the kitchen, End Of [a Coventry phrase]. It's only busy once in a blue moon anyway.

 

[bramling]

The passenger behaviour in that example was wholly unacceptable. Why would anyone assume that they have a right to at least two seats?



Hmmm...so staff are more important than the paying customers are they? Frankly any staff with such an attitude deserve to be sacked.

The situation in coach K is unacceptable all round.

Of course the staff need breaks, however this should not be in a public area, this isn't right for the staff, nor for the passengers. They should find a way of providing a dedicated area, even if this means reducing the capacity of the passenger area slightly.

It's simply not good enough that a premium part of the train is the de-facto staff messroom. There have been various posts alluding to noisy groups of staff in there, and personally when I've used this carriage on a weekend (where there is much less staffing so the messroom issue is less likely to arise as I understand it?) the sole member of catering staff tried every subtle method to dissuade us from using the carriage - she evidently wanted it to herself for the whole journey.

 

[driver_m]

The passenger behaviour in that example was wholly unacceptable. Why would anyone assume that they have a right to at least two seats?



Hmmm...so staff are more important than the paying customers are they? Frankly any staff with such an attitude deserve to be sacked.

Touched a nerve has he?
Let's just say this, the staff don't have a divine right to sit there, no one is disputing that, and on a full train, they are expected to let passengers sit there. But on the other hand, why do some posters on here give the impression that they actively go looking for the particular seats on an otherwise half empty first class? I've sat in there pass or off duty on occasions and I've seen it myself. The passenger who sits at the back of K with a huge smug grin on their face as if on purpose. Why do it? It achieves what exactly? Like throwing someone out of a reserved seat in an empty coach.

 

[47271]

Touched a nerve has he?
Let's just say this, the staff don't have a divine right to sit there, no one is disputing that, and on a full train, they are expected to let passengers sit there. But on the other hand, why do some posters on here give the impression that they actively go looking for the particular seats on an otherwise half empty first class? I've sat in there pass or off duty on occasions and I've seen it myself. The passenger who sits at the back of K with a huge smug grin on their face as if on purpose. Why do it? It achieves what exactly? Like throwing someone out of a reserved seat in an empty coach.

Well, exactly.

I sat in Coach K once years ago when it had been reserved automatically and I didn't know any better. The din and yakking from the kitchen was terrible, but not unreasonable for the job they were doing, plus something about the leading coach tilt disagreed with me. I don't remember staff trying to sit in my seat, all I recall was an annoying environment.

If it's an 11-car head straight to G and you're almost guaranteed a table of four to yourself, or a single seat if you must. It's a bit more complicated in a 9-car but I'd only set foot in K if there was absolutely nothing else left in First.

If you want to get upset about staff sat down, the East Coast guard off duty but in uniform I experienced in the First Class quiet coach, on the phone, with his feet up on the opposite seat probably takes the biscuit. I could read his name badge, so he obviously couldn't care less. It was quite a few years ago, something tells me that he isn't on the railway any more...

 

[RJ]

Because they work much longer than 4 hour shifts (I believe more than 12 in some cases) and doing this saves rostering them a break off the train allowing them to have less staff. Working on a moving train serving is also more physically demanding because your body compensates for the movement of the train.

Their contracts permit them breaks and this is how their employer chooses to provide them.

When I did that job, all turns had a rostered break off the train. Even Glasgow turns which were 10:39 long had a 40 or so minute break at Central. Any surplus catering staff travelling on a train were officially down to "assist" on that train, which in reality meant not willingly assisting at all and spending paid time doing nothing.

Might have changed now, but there were certain trains where there were up to 8 catering staff booked on a train, most of whom were down to assist and certainly not providing a welcoming atmosphere to people entering Coach K.

 

[Bletchleyite]

something about the leading coach tilt disagreed with me

It has nothing to predict from, so is noticeably rougher than elsewhere where forces on the forward coaches are used to work out exactly when to tilt. It used to disagree with me but doesn't any more.

 

[dk1]

Might have changed now, but there were certain trains where there were up to 8 catering staff booked on a train, most of whom were down to assist and certainly not providing a welcoming atmosphere to people entering Coach K.

Loadings in first not too heavy from Glasgow so plenty of room elsewhere. You'd think they'd just isolate the door into 'K' or put 'Reserved' on it.

 

[Huntergreed]

Wouldn't it be possible to just permenantly isolate the door into Coach K and convert it into a staff only Coach, which would be used for a half kitchen/staff rest area? They could even install another TM office here to ensure the TM has 1 base at both ends of the train. VT could then convert around half of Coach H/J into Single and double airline seats, so that the number of seats remains around the same?

 

[Bishopstone]

Wouldn't it be possible to just permenantly isolate the door into Coach K and convert it into a staff only Coach, which would be used for a half kitchen/staff rest area? They could even install another TM office here to ensure the TM has 1 base at both ends of the train. VT could then convert around half of Coach H/J into Single and double airline seats, so that the number of seats remains around the same?

What about those crew members who wish to enjoy their break in relative quiet, away from the hubbub of the kitchen and sometimes raucous mess room atmosphere? They can't go for a walk outside the building, as office workers do.

I think, out of fairness, you'd need to reserve a couple of seats in coach J for those types.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Wouldn't it be possible to just permenantly isolate the door into Coach K and convert it into a staff only Coach, which would be used for a half kitchen/staff rest area? They could even install another TM office here to ensure the TM has 1 base at both ends of the train. VT could then convert around half of Coach H/J into Single and double airline seats, so that the number of seats remains around the same?

Not enough capacity, really. I'd just suggest rejigging the seating arrangement slightly and putting a partition in with the requisite number of seats behind it for staff use (perhaps they could do one full bay of 2+2 with tables, so put the partition one window away from the existing one). They don't have to be First Class ones, so if they needed 4 it could be a row of Standard seats.

What about those crew members who wish to enjoy their break in relative quiet, away from the hubbub of the kitchen and sometimes raucous mess room atmosphere? They can't go for a walk outside the building, as office workers do.

I think, out of fairness, you'd need to reserve a couple of seats in coach J for those types.

They could go and take an empty seat in the Standard quiet coach if not full (or elsewhere in 1st if they must). If full, tough, like it is for the passengers.

I don't think the objection is to them sitting there, it's to monopolising seats that are not supposed to be dedicated to staff use.

 

[driver_m]

What about those crew members who wish to enjoy their break in relative quiet, away from the hubbub of the kitchen and sometimes raucous mess room atmosphere? They can't go for a walk outside the building, as office workers do.

I think, out of fairness, you'd need to reserve a couple of seats in coach J for those types.

No, they're a team and should work together. If you can't sit with your workmates there's something wrong. BR had it right with the old MK3 buffet set up. This problem would be wiped out in an instant.

 

[Bletchleyite]

No, they're a team and should work together. If you can't sit with your workmates there's something wrong. BR had it right with the old MK3 buffet set up. This problem would be wiped out in an instant.

Didn't they just hog seats in the half-first back then?

But then the issue isn't even them hogging seats unless the train is full. It's of them hogging *specific* seats which some passengers quite like.

I don't think I'd even care if they'd just rejig one of the other coaches so half the single seats were airline style.

 

[Mag_seven]

The issue is staff RESERVING seats by placing items (such as Red Coats and Virgin bags) on seats (a practice which of course is frowned upon when fare paying passengers do it). If the seats are empty then there is no objection to staff sitting in them - just as long as they vacate them at every station stop to allow fare paying passengers joining the option of sitting there.

 

[driver_m]

Didn't they just hog seats in the half-first back then?

But then the issue isn't even them hogging seats unless the train is full. It's of them hogging *specific* seats which some passengers quite like.

I don't think I'd even care if they'd just rejig one of the other coaches so half the single seats were airline style.

No, they had a set of seats that could be cordoned off. Not hogging as you so beautifully put it. It's not rocket science that everyone should be looked after on a train, passengers and staff. Seems like some on here want staff to 'know their place' and doff their hat and say 'please Sir, may I sit here?' and hope Sir Bufton Tufton doesn't object to the presence of peasants.

 

[route101]

Loadings in first not too heavy from Glasgow so plenty of room elsewhere. You'd think they'd just isolate the door into 'K' or put 'Reserved' on it.

Coach K is better northbound .Felt pretty cramped southbound in one of the single k seats .

Is there any other single seats in first ?