Should Advance Tickets Be Available On All Routes ?

[Gareth Marston]

You are if you try to build a model based on the train rather than the journey.

When I read the idea, though, I just thought of Arriva Trains Wales's policy of offering seat reservations on some seats, but making it hard for anyone buying an Advance ticket to actually get one.

Personally, though, I'd sooner have competitively priced walk-up single fares than Advance tickets, as you know what they'll be from one day to the next.

The AP system is a nonsense that should be abolished/radically reformed. Before we hear bleating about Yield Management no one really knows what effect Single Leg pricing will have were just frightened to think customer. With singles half the returns it makes the whole system less complicated.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The AP system is a nonsense that should be abolished/radically reformed. Before we hear bleating about Yield Management no one really knows what effect Single Leg pricing will have were just frightened to think customer. With singles half the returns it makes the whole system less complicated.

Single fare pricing, if nothing else, offers genuine choice, and decomplicates massively in terms of excesses and the likes (you could basically abolish excesses in favour of refund and reissue). Mind you, we've come a long way - remember when BR's Advance Purchase fares were all returns, requiring the same quota to be available on both legs, and the only single fare was the Standard/First Open Single?

Everyone said it couldn't be done, and then Virgin Trains (yes, them that a lot on here dislike) went ahead and did it. And everybody followed.

Crikey, if you asked in 1990 everyone would have said that you'd never see airlines without esoteric pricing policies involving Saturday night stays and the likes, and then along came the low-costs and kicked the staid, old fashioned legacy airlines into the proverbial cocked hat...

 

[Joe Paxton]

I totally agree. There are so many long distance journeys on non intercity routes, involving changes of trains involving multiple TOCs, where prices are extremely high due to the non availability of Advance tickets. Yet at the same time there seems to be an increase in the availability of Advance tickets for very short distances between neighbouring cities. It's currently almost like a post code lottery depending upon where you are travelling to/from which seems very unfair and not the passengers fault.
...

Yorkie has already mentioned earlier that TrainSplit can help here in stringing together a legit itinerary where there's no availability of through Advance tickets - and indeed whilst the TOCs aren't big fans of ticket splitting, their failure to offer through Advance fares on some flows does seem to positively encourage splitting and use of the services and retailers that facilitate splitting (e.g. TrainSplit, TicketClever).

 

[WelshBluebird]

Personally I find it insane that there are quite a few journeys that you can't get advance tickets for where the journey involves a branch line, but you can get advances to the mainline station where you change onto the branch line, and you can get advances from a different mainline station to the branch line station.

Bath Spa - Treorchy is an example. No advances. But Bath Spa - Cardiff you can get them, Birmingham to Cardiff you can get them and Bath Spa - Treorchy you can get them. So why not Bath Spa - Treorchy? It obviously isn't that you can't get them on the branch line journeys (because you can from some places), and it also isn't that the main line journey is the issue (as you can get them for that too).

I think it is ToC related (I have noticed that with the above mentioned branch line, you can get advances involving XC and ATW, but not GWR) but to the travelling passenger it is odd and inconvenient.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

There is no point in having Advance fares for some journeys, Urmston to Irlam for example, but even if there was a point, it probably wouldn't serve the TOCs to introduce it. That said some journeys have Advance fare users starting/ending short and with very low detection rates which probably mean the TOCs bring in less revenue than they should and probably don't even know it.

Single fare pricing, if nothing else, offers genuine choice, and decomplicates massively in terms of excesses and the likes (you could basically abolish excesses in favour of refund and reissue). Mind you, we've come a long way - remember when BR's Advance Purchase fares were all returns, requiring the same quota to be available on both legs, and the only single fare was the Standard/First Open Single?

Everyone said it couldn't be done, and then Virgin Trains (yes, them that a lot on here dislike) went ahead and did it. And everybody followed....

I don't remember as far back as BR, but I do remember Super Advance, Apex, Apex First and Leisure First, Saver, Saver First and Super Saver all having single fares in 1998, before Virgin abolished it for all journeys entirely on their trains and replace them with Virgin Value Single fares (later expanding it to all journeys they set the fare for). Even then it was one fare for 14 days ahead (like the Apex), one for 7 days ahead (like Super Advance) and one for the day before (the only true 'invention') if I recall correctly.

 

[Wallsendmag]

Apex was 7 days, Super Advance was 1 day prior


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Apex was 7 days, Super Advance was 1 day prior


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro

Oh yes, sorry I've gotten muddled up somewhere. I'm sure there was a 14 day variety though. Also, thinking about it, the Virgin Value tickets might have been 7, 3 and 1 day in advance.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Oh yes, sorry I've gotten muddled up somewhere. I'm sure there was a 14 day variety though. Also, thinking about it, the Virgin Value tickets might have been 7, 3 and 1 day in advance.

I believe you're right. It was later on that there was a switch to it being purely on quota.

 

[infobleep]

Some do, some don't. But if you use Trainsplit, the problem should be solved, as you will be sold a compliant through itinerary, with a combination of Advance fares, where available.

Indeed.

I agree with you regarding train split and I do use that. I recommend it to friends too.

One friend uses Trainline. I explained that it has a booking fee. His reply was not if you book on the day and it's not an advanced purchase ticket.

I can't voucher if that is the case but regardless I explained that train split can be even cheaper on the day and they also don't charge a booking fee. Even with the 10% saving cost charge it would be cheaper at best or the same at worst.

It's a great site if I do say so myself. What they do, I use to have spend time doing myselt and manually one isn't as fast as a decent computer doing the calculations.

I'd still like advance fares that straddled multiple TOCs in the South East though.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'd still like advance fares that straddled multiple TOCs in the South East though.

Rather than that, would it make sense to just have them per train and have all the booking engines (not just Trainsplit) cobble together a suitable split and just issue it on one ticket with one admin fee to change it?

I think the DaFT were talking about that, weren't they?

 

[radamfi]

I don't remember as far back as BR, but I do remember Super Advance, Apex, Apex First and Leisure First, Saver, Saver First and Super Saver all having single fares in 1998, before Virgin abolished it for all journeys entirely on their trains and replace them with Virgin Value Single fares (later expanding it to all journeys they set the fare for). Even then it was one fare for 14 days ahead (like the Apex), one for 7 days ahead (like Super Advance) and one for the day before (the only true 'invention') if I recall correctly.

The single versions of Apex, Advance and Super Advance cost only a little less than the return. We had to wait until the Virgin Value for singles to cost half the return.

For example, in 1998, London to Carlisle was

Apex Return £36
Apex Single £35
Super Advance Return £45
Super Advance Single £44

 

[infobleep]

Rather than that, would it make sense to just have them per train and have all the booking engines (not just Trainsplit) cobble together a suitable split and just issue it on one ticket with one admin fee to change it?

I think the DaFT were talking about that, weren't they?

That might work. I was thinking more in the case of the current system continuing as it is but with more advances being sold.

I'm sure there are better ideas than just selling more advances.

I don't begunge paying to use the railways but I begunge three things under the current system:
There being no advances across multiple TOCs in the South East
There being no discount for making the same journey once a week for 30 weeks of the year - this only being avilable for those who travel regularly for 30 days.
Ray returns costing only slightly more than a single, which makes travelling overnight rather more expensive or doing shorter distance journeys more expensive.

For example Guildford to Farnham isn't valid via Woking. If one starts at Woking but wishes to end up at Guildford then it's cheaper to do the following:

1. Return Woking to Farnham £7.10
2. Single Woking to Guildford £3.80
Total:£10.90

If one was to take the shortest route the cost would be:
1. Single Woking to Farnham £7.00
2. Single Farnham to Guildford £6.60
Total: £13.60

If travelling overnight from Woking to Farnham the cost is £14, if travelling for the day £7.10, that is a massive increase just to stay one night away. If it's not a massive then maybe the day returns perhaps are priced too cheaply.

The TOCs are within their rights to operate in this way and I am within my rights to use trains split Web Site and knowledge of the routing guide to work things in my favour.

Not all staff like the idea of passengers saving money using the routing guide but not all passengers like the lack of advance public chase tickets to some destinations. It works both ways.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Single fare pricing, if nothing else, offers genuine choice, and decomplicates massively in terms of excesses and the likes (you could basically abolish excesses in favour of refund and reissue). Mind you, we've come a long way - remember when BR's Advance Purchase fares were all returns, requiring the same quota to be available on both legs, and the only single fare was the Standard/First Open Single?

Everyone said it couldn't be done, and then Virgin Trains (yes, them that a lot on here dislike) went ahead and did it. And everybody followed.

If single-leg pricing (other than on VT with restrictions) has arrived I must have missed it.
I know there is a trial supposed to start, but there seems no sign of it yet.

Advance fares are not regulated, of course, so there's no hope of harmonising them except possibly for the Ts&Cs.
There also seems to be an increase in "8A" tickets - flexible timewise but not allowing break of journey, so no stopping/starting short, or splitting part-way.

 

[Paul Kelly]

One friend uses Trainline. I explained that it has a booking fee. His reply was not if you book on the day and it's not an advanced purchase ticket.

Yes, as far as I know that's correct - I think they might have had to do that to avoid being accused of being more expensive for buying on the day than buying at the station on the day, which their advertising implied was something only sheep did.

 

[infobleep]

Yes, as far as I know that's correct - I think they might have had to do that to avoid being accused of being more expensive for buying on the day than buying at the station on the day, which their advertising implied was something only sheep did.

That's probably the white sheep, with the black sheep using Trainline. Hehe

 

[Bletchleyite]

If single-leg pricing (other than on VT with restrictions) has arrived I must have missed it.

Advances on all TOCs are single-leg priced.

There also seems to be an increase in "8A" tickets - flexible timewise but not allowing break of journey, so no stopping/starting short, or splitting part-way.

This is only enforced where it causes a fare anomaly (such as the famous Lancaster peak-time case). Same day break of journey and starting/stopping short is otherwise de-facto allowed on all walk-up tickets. I've done it enough times and never been questioned.

I don't think there has been an increase in them, though, they used to be the norm for journeys away from London and a lot of them have been changed to Anytimes or the mythical Anytime Short Return.

And all normal walk-up tickets allow BoJ on the return half, the restriction is only on the outward.

 

[Starmill]

I don't think there has been an increase in them, though, they used to be the norm for journeys away from London and a lot of them have been changed to Anytimes or the mythical Anytime Short Return.

Generally they have been changed to restricted tickets - and more expensive Anytime tickets created.

 

[bb21]

Oh yes, sorry I've gotten muddled up somewhere. I'm sure there was a 14 day variety though. Also, thinking about it, the Virgin Value tickets might have been 7, 3 and 1 day in advance.

There was a SuperApex which had a 14-day booking requirement, but it only existed for a small number of flows. There were also a few others but names escape me right now.

 

[najaB]

There was a SuperApex which had a 14-day booking requirement, but it only existed for a small number of flows. There were also a few others but names escape me right now.

So this is the 'it was so simple in the past' that people keep banging on about.

 

[Joe Paxton]

There was a SuperApex which had a 14-day booking requirement, but it only existed for a small number of flows. There were also a few others but names escape me right now.

e.g. Advance Return and Super Advance Return.

 

[323235]

Well we had Northern only advance tickets for about 12 months (possibly 18 months?) to Manchester but Northern have withdrawn them due to low usage. I would have though they'd have left it at least 12 months after the enhanced timetables before considering withdrawal.

 

[Joe Paxton]

Well we had Northern only advance tickets for about 12 months (possibly 18 months?) to Manchester but Northern have withdrawn them due to low usage. I would have though they'd have left it at least 12 months after the enhanced timetables before considering withdrawal.

From where?