Not moving from clearly marked reserved seat when requested by reservation holder

[Class83]

VWC Pendolinos have a particular problem for reserved seats in that there are no AC outlets at airline seats, so if you need power you have to book a table even as a single traveler.

I'm also somewhat guilty of when given a reservation in a fully reserved coach B or wandering down to the empty unreserved coach E.

Charging a couple of £ for a reservation might help, possibly with free reservations for children when the booking includes an adult.

 

[The Prisoner]

As a regular traveler on Virgin the terrible seat reservations system causes loads of grief. Half the time it hasn't "downloaded" so none of the reservations are honoured anyway (usually it takes the train manager five minutes to tell everyone after the train leaves the station, by which time it's all kicking off). When it is working the panels are tiny and not obvious to infrequent travelers.

But my main gripe is why on earth these tiny little reservations panel do not show where the seat is reserved to and from now? They used to on Voyagers, but to my mind have never shown that info on Pendolinos (might be wrong) - now they both just show "reserved" more often than not. If you get on at Preston going south and there is an empty seat reserved from Carlisle you know you are safe to take it.......if it shows just "reserved" you live in mortal fear that somebody is going to come and turf you out further on in the journey.

I would love to know the percentage of seat reservations that do not get used as customers have booked in conjunction with a flexible ticket. I would guess at least 1 in 3? I don't think you can go down the route of charging people for non-compulsory reservations, but there has to be an easier way for staff and customers to spot the seats that have not been taken up so they can be used without fear of being displaced.

I have to book reserved seats when traveling with my children and there is almost a palpable fear from me as to who I am going to have to ask to move. It is seldom something people accept gracefully, and I do have sympathy if they genuinely did not know that the seat was reserved.

The whole system is so user unfriendly it hurts. Surely Virgin WC can devise a clearer system to show which seats are free?? Maybe a ticket on the seat back?!?!

 

[Silver Cobra]

My main gripe is why on earth these tiny little reservations panel do not show where the seat is reserved to and from now? They used to on Voyagers, but to my mind have never shown that info on Pendolinos (might be wrong) - now they both just show "reserved" more often than not. If you get on at Preston going south and there is an empty seat reserved from Carlisle you know you are safe to take it.......if it shows just "reserved" you live in mortal fear that somebody is going to come and turf you out further on in the journey.

While it does seem hit-and-miss, I have seen the screens on Pendolinos list where a seat is reserved from (or where a seat is 'available until', as it specifically states). So for instance, on a journey to Liverpool Lime Street, I've seen the screens say 'Available until Crewe'. I have yet to see the screens display where a seat may become available from, as it just continues to display 'reserved' in these cases.

As a regular traveler on Virgin the terrible seat reservations system causes loads of grief. Half the time it hasn't "downloaded" so none of the reservations are honoured anyway (usually it takes the train manager five minutes to tell everyone after the train leaves the station, by which time it's all kicking off). When it is working the panels are tiny and not obvious to infrequent travelers.

I've been caught out before with the 'reservations not downloaded' issue, but from a different angle. Travelling from Glasgow Central to Euston last August, I took a seat in coach J, particularly the only individual seat in the coach (seat 14). As we left Glasgow, the screen displayed the seat as 'Available'. However, upon departing Oxenholme, the screen updated to say 'Available until Preston'. Cue me hurridly moving from the seat to coach K, which thankfully was pretty much empty. I'm guessing the reservations took a while to download, so I'm glad it updated before we reached Preston, otherwise that would have been rather awkward.

 

[cjmillsnun]

That's not true. Those carrying the most expensive tickets might not have seat reservations but the majority of those people have paid nothing; their company has.

Sorry, you could argue that the most expensive tickets are seasons. The vast majority of commuters pay for them themselves. That said, commuters know the score and many of them know they'll be standing.

 

[Doctor Fegg]

Sorry, you could argue that the most expensive tickets are seasons.

I guess you could, but given that (on our line) a season ticket is only 45% of the per-journey price when compared to an Anytime Return - significantly less than even the Super Off-Peak, in fact - I'm not sure I'd believe you!

(Based on 220 days' travel per year.)

 

[al78]

The price of the ticket, or whether the user has paid for it, is completely irrelevant. Unless you have a seat reservation and the reservation system is in operation, there is no entitlement to a seat*, whether you have paid nothing or a million pounds for a ticket. Buying a cheap advance ticket gets me a seat reservation by default, buying a walk-up ticket doesn't. The neo-liberal capitalism money means everything philosophy isn't always appropriate.

*I'm talking about the general case, so I accept there is a grey area corresponding to passengers with poor mobility, and priority seats.

 

[broadgage]

My experience of seat reservations is that they are of very little use.
If the train is lightly loaded, with plenty of vacant seats then a reservation is not really needed.
If the train is overcrowded with few or no vacant seats, then it is probable that the seat will be taken by someone else who declines to move. As has already been said reservations are not in practice enforceable.
And even if I get my booked seat, there is a significant risk that someone else will demand it, perhaps with a threat of violence.
On at least two occasions I have been told by staff to give up my reserved seat to someone with a good sob story, funny how making me move CAN be enforced, but moving someone from my seat CANT be enforced.

One of my worst experiences was paying over £150 for a full fare open first class ticket from Paddington to Taunton, and booking a seat.
This was occupied by someone else who declined to move on the grounds that they held a season ticket.
As I arrived in good time I was able to take an alternative seat. I was then told by the train manager to vacate this seat as it was needed by someone elderly. I protested and was told that I should have booked !
Excellent value and splendid customer service to pay over £150 to stand.

Although this was several years ago, I suspect that it has got worse and not better.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

In Guildford to Newcastle voyager today - reservation screens completely broken!

 

[MylesHSG]

I recently travelled AMTRAK from New York to Boston. On my train there was a single class (airline style, but very wide and with great legroom) and there were no reserved seats. Instead my ticket allowed me a seat, but not a particular one. I assume once all seats are sold thats it.

 

[edwin_m]

I recently travelled AMTRAK from New York to Boston. On my train there was a single class (airline style, but very wide and with great legroom) and there were no reserved seats. Instead my ticket allowed me a seat, but not a particular one. I assume once all seats are sold thats it.

As far as I know that's standard practice on all Amtrak trains that offer "reserved coach" (a few shorter routes are totally unreserved). Snag is you can't do a mixture of reserved and walk-ups. I guess if you get on a train that's nearly full it could take a while to find a seat, unlike a system where you just go to the seat that is named on your ticket.

 

[Antman]

.

One of my worst experiences was paying over £150 for a full fare open first class ticket from Paddington to Taunton, and booking a seat.
This was occupied by someone else who declined to move on the grounds that they held a season ticket.
As I arrived in good time I was able to take an alternative seat. I was then told by the train manager to vacate this seat as it was needed by someone elderly. I protested and was told that I should have booked !
Excellent value and splendid customer service to pay over £150 to stand.

Why didn't you tell the train manager to go and shift the season ticket holder and then you would move?

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Why didn't you tell the train manager to go and shift the season ticket holder and then you would move?

Why can't season ticket holders realise that they pay thousands of pounds for unlimited travel on a specific route, not reservations as well!!!

Slightly irrelevant, but what I always get as a teen when I travel in first class that I don't like is old men in the carriage who look at you as if to say "I bet you're a fare evader" just because I'm a 21st century born. Well excuse me for not being in my sixties in order to afford first class!

Obviously I would never say that to their face though! I'm cringingly respectful to my elders, dw!

 

[AM9]

Why can't season ticket holders realise that they pay thousands of pounds for unlimited travel on a specific route, not reservations as well!!!

I couldn't agree more. Season ticket holders are subsidised by walk-up and advance ticket sales. The price per mile for season tickets 'anytime' validity is well below walk-up anytime and frequently below an off-peak ticket. Advance ticket holders get travel at reduced prices because they accept restrictions (sometimes drastic) that the TOC imposes and they are effectively paying for travel that costs the TOC virtually nothing to provide.
There are many posts here about the unreasonable behaviour that some season ticket holders have where by their 'self-entitlement' claims are presumed to give them some sort of priority over those who pay the full fare.

 

[Bletchleyite]

As reservations are now so easy to get, and could be made even easier e.g. at a TVM or via an app etc, I'm still of the mindset that they should stop marking them and instead have reserved and unreserved coaches. So if you're in a reserved coach you assume them all to be reserved, and can if you wish grab a reservation or move to the unreserved coach.

 

[boxy321]

My 'nnnetwork' season ticket specifically states 'This ticket does not give priority over other passengers...' on the back, so they know there is a specific probably with certain holders.

 

[Antman]

I couldn't agree more. Season ticket holders are subsidised by walk-up and advance ticket sales.

Nonsense. Season ticket holders subsidse the remainder of the tickets.

The rail companies get regular bulk income from season ticket holders all year round. No peaks no troughs of tick sales.

 

[edwin_m]

Nonsense. Season ticket holders subsidse the remainder of the tickets.

The rail companies get regular bulk income from season ticket holders all year round. No peaks no troughs of tick sales.

Season tickets holders mostly travel in the peaks, so they define the capacity of a route in terms of the number of trains and the throughput of the infrastructure. This is particularly true of commuter routes but to some extent of Intercity routes too.

However they (and full-fare business travellers) do in that sense make cheap Advance tickets possible, because that capacity is already paid for but less used at off-peak periods so it is in the TOC's interest to sell it even at a very low price.

 

[DarloRich]

I've seen (or been involved in) several instances where two parties have claimed to have a reservation for the same seat, but they've inevitably always turned out to be one side on the wrong train or in the wrong carriage. I've yet to come across a genuine double booking. THIS was probably the best one: http://www.railforums.co.uk/showpost.php?p=720679&postcount=14

happens all the time. People get confused by the letter and numbers on a reservation slip, especially the "A" for airline.

 

[xotGD]

is it possible for a season ticket holder to reserve a seat on their regular services every day?

 

[londonbridge]

As an afterthought, on one occasion when I was doing my own football travel I went to find my seat and found myself sitting amongst a group of opposition fans, who insisted I must be in the wrong carriage or seat because they couldn't understand why Virgin would have reserved me a seat in that particular section of the train!

 

[westv]

is it possible for a season ticket holder to reserve a seat on their regular services every day?

It is on VTEC.

 

[Gareth Marston]

is it possible for a season ticket holder to reserve a seat on their regular services every day?

If you hold a valid ticket then you can request a Booking Office clerk to reserve a seat for you on presentation of ticket.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

is it possible for a season ticket holder to reserve a seat on their regular services every day?

Only on trains where you would normally be able to reserve a seat if you were not a season ticket holder, and only if a seat is available. Having a season ticket won't improve anything when it comes to a reservation and that is what I'm trying to stress! Unless of course, you're one of those people who sit in a seat reserved by someone else and rudely refuse to vacate the seat to the person who reserved it just because you've got a season ticket and think that that means you can do what you like. But of course, I'm sure no one on here is like that!

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

It is on VTEC.

Yes, but they have no more priority over seat reservations than anyone else.

 

[broadgage]

Why didn't you tell the train manager to go and shift the season ticket holder and then you would move?

I did, and the reply was that the train manager was in charge (which is factually correct) but otherwise not helpful and stating that it was Maundy Thursday which was also factually correct.
The season ticket holder stated that he should receive priority, and the train manager seemed to agree.
I did write to complain and received compensation for the difference between first and steerage fares.

All this was some years ago, but reports on this and other forums suggest that it has got worse and not better since.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

I did, and the reply was that the train manager was in charge (which is factually correct) but otherwise not helpful and stating that it was Maundy Thursday which was also factually correct.
The season ticket holder stated that he should receive priority, and the train manager seemed to agree.
I did write to complain and received compensation for the difference between first and steerage fares.

All this was some years ago, but reports on this and other forums suggest that it has got worse and not better since.

At least you got compensated. So you should have been!

 

[bb21]

Can we stop this silly talk of who's subsidising whom please?

Every time someone goes for that it makes me want to grab a bunch of jelly beans and throw at them.

No one passenger is subsiding another. You're simply different markets. Without either market the industry wouldn't survive, at least not in its current form.

 

[AM9]

Season tickets holders mostly travel in the peaks, so they define the capacity of a route in terms of the number of trains and the throughput of the infrastructure. This is particularly true of commuter routes but to some extent of Intercity routes too.

However they (and full-fare business travellers) do in that sense make cheap Advance tickets possible, because that capacity is already paid for but less used at off-peak periods so it is in the TOC's interest to sell it even at a very low price.

Commuter peak travel demand is responsible for much of the investment in infrastructure and rolling stock, some of which is only used for two two-hour periods five days a week. It is also the reason why trains such as the class 700s are tailored for maximum capacity (to the discomfort of some off-peak travellers at other times). If there wasn't this ridiculously inefficient demand for capacity, walk-up fares would be more affordable as they wouldn't need to subsidise that (over) investment.
Having said all that, I do believe that rail is often (usually in London and the south-east) the best way for transporting the masses to work. The problem is that those who travel on season tickets are subsidised to such large degree by those who use walk-up fares and travel at times that put less stress on the system.

 

[jon0844]

Indeed, it's the time that people travel that causes the real issues - not how much they've paid for a ticket.

Even when I commuted daily, I tried to avoid the worst of the peak. I'd often travel on a train after 9am, which was far quieter. I was of course somewhat fortunate in having quite flexible hours.

I wish more businesses would be like that. Many workers COULD be more flexible if their employers would allow it.

 

[Wombat]

Even when I commuted daily, I tried to avoid the worst of the peak. I'd often travel on a train after 9am, which was far quieter. I was of course somewhat fortunate in having quite flexible hours.

I wish more businesses would be like that. Many workers COULD be more flexible if their employers would allow it.

It's one of those circumstances where a reasonable custom ("be in the office between 9 and 5") has resulted in a deranged outcome ("everybody in the universe forces themselves onto trains all at the same time"). I was thinking about this recently and a couple of things occurred to me:

1) I suspect that a large proportion, possibly the majority, of commuters (including myself) could work from home if the correct infrastructure and corporate policies were in place. I'm able to WFH "sometimes" but it's not clearly defined and there's an expectation that I'm in the office more often than not, without good reason.

2) We could be a lot smarter at commuting even when we have reason to be in the office. If I have a meeting at 11:00, standard practice would be to work the full day at the office:

08:00 Catch train to London
09:00 Arrive at office and start work
11:00 Start meeting
13:00 End meeting
17:00 Leave office
18:00 Get home

(For convenience, I'm assuming working hours of 09:00 - 17:00 and a one hour commute).

I could just as productively do the following:

08:00 Start working from home
10:00 Catch train to London
11:00 Arrive at office and start meeting
13:00 End meeting and leave office
14:00 Get home and resume work
18:00 Finish work

Exactly the same number of hours worked, but avoiding both commuting peaks. I'm starting to put this concept into practice, using next month's disruption at Waterloo as justification. Of course this won't work for plenty of people who have a genuine need to be physically present in the office for the full working day, but I think there's a good case for the government and industry groups to show some leadership. Passenger numbers are only going to increase, and it strikes me as odd that we're not considering working practices with the same priority as (necessary) increases in capacity.