CAF selects Newport for UK rolling stock factory

[Bornin1980s]

At the moment, most of our rail vehicle exports are narrow gauge and industrial products by the likes of Severn-Lamb and Clayton Equipment Co (yes, they survived the Class 17 saga). I always assumed that our compact loading gauge prevented mainline exports, but the likes of Metro Cammel and Brush have managed it in the past. Is the location close enough to the port to export large vehicles? If not, they could export the trams.

It might be the case that they haven't promised much to avoid a repeat of Newport's LG embarrassment, when 'Europe's biggest ever inward investment' turned out to be nothing but a short lived monitor factory that literally went out with the CRT.

 

[Chester1]

Worth noting that despite no free trade deal between the USA & the EU both their major civil aircraft manufacturers include significant amounts of products from each other's countries. I do feel some posters may be a bit too much "doom and gloom" about the effect of Brexit

I agree and I strongly favoured remain. While a hard brexit would probably cause a great amount of economic disruption in the short term, the current pro EU opinions I have heard from other remainers over the last few weeks and months are bordering on hysterical. Train manufacture is probably an area that would benefit from tariffs because there are no exports to hurt. Our most likely train export customers are middle income country's building modern railway systems and high tarrifs would make it much more economic to make parts and assemble trains in the UK if they are for the UK market. This is probably part of CAFs rationale for building the factory. Tarrifs of upto 10% on trains or train parts would make it very difficult for them to make a profit on UK train orders if they manufactured the units in Spain.

At the moment, most of our rail vehicle exports are narrow gauge and industrial products by the likes of Severn-Lamb and Clayton Equipment Co (yes, they survived the Class 17 saga). I always assumed that our compact loading gauge prevented mainline exports, but the likes of Metro Cammel and Brush have managed it in the past. Is the location close enough to the port to export large vehicles? If not, they could export the trams.

It might be the case that they haven't promised much to avoid a repeat of Newport's LG embarrassment, when 'Europe's biggest ever inward investment' turned out to be nothing but a short lived monitor factory that literally went out with the CRT.

The gauge issue is less of a hinderance now because of the increasing use of modular train designs. The HS2 captive trains will be European gauge anyway. Hitachi's AT400 design is supposed to be adaptable to UK and European gauge to allow it to bid in 2019 for the classic compatible order and use the same design at a later date for the captive order plus exports.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I agree and I strongly favoured remain. While a hard brexit would probably cause a great amount of economic disruption in the short term, the current pro EU opinions I have heard from other remainers over the last few weeks and months are bordering on hysterical. Train manufacture is probably an area that would benefit from tariffs because there are no exports to hurt. Our most likely train export customers are middle income country's building modern railway systems and high tarrifs would make it much more economic to make parts and assemble trains in the UK if they are for the UK market. This is probably part of CAFs rationale for building the factory. Tarrifs of upto 10% on trains or train parts would make it very difficult for them to make a profit on UK train orders if they manufactured the units in Spain.

But we don't make any trains (well, Derby makes about 50% of Bombardier's UK orders), so any new tariffs will just put up the cost of any new trains we need - starting with the devaluation of the £.
Where do you think the market is for new train design and manufacture?
The UK is not big enough to provide a steady flow of new-build orders.
I don't believe I am being hysterical.

Globalisation doesn't stop because of Brexit.
It's just more likely we will buy from China/India/Brazil than Germany/Italy/France.
That's what that nice Mr Fox has in mind.

 

[superkev]

I would think exporting non UK loading gauge trains difficult as non of our assembly plants are located next to H S1.
K

 

[Dai Corner]

I would think exporting non UK loading gauge trains difficult as non of our assembly plants are located next to H S1.
K

CAF Newport will be within easy reach of the docks by low-loader....

 

[ac6000cw]

CAF Newport will be within easy reach of the docks by low-loader....

As is Newton Aycliffe - I'm sure Hitachi thought about that before deciding to build there.

It's Derby that is at a disadvantage here.

 

[Sad Sprinter]

Imagine how much work GEC, Metro-Cammell, Brush and BREL would of had if they were still around today. It's incredible that the UK is is the only country of a reasonable size in Europe that does not have its own train building and yet has such a huge order sheet. It's wince-worthy to think of the incredible amount of research and development we have flushed away from this country that is now picked up by CAF, Alstom, Hitachi, Siemens etc.

 

[RichmondCommu]

Imagine how much work GEC, Metro-Cammell, Brush and BREL would of had if they were still around today. It's incredible that the UK is is the only country of a reasonable size in Europe that does not have its own train building and yet has such a huge order sheet. It's wince-worthy to think of the incredible amount of research and development we have flushed away from this country that is now picked up by CAF, Alstom, Hitachi, Siemens etc.

Brush are still around as part of Wabtec but if they have any new builds at all I would imagine its only little "one off" projects.

In terms of BREL some years a go I came across some stuff on the internet regarding the closure of Shildon wagon works. Even all those years a go it was mentioned in the House Of Commons that the amount of rolling stock that BREL exported was very small and that there was simply not the demand for new wagons in this country.

 

[RichmondCommu]

As is Newton Aycliffe - I'm sure Hitachi thought about that before deciding to build there.

It's Derby that is at a disadvantage here.

Surely our motorway network would help with that along with HS1.

 

[gazthomas]

Having looked at the discussion here I am pleased this plant is coming to the UK. I'm from North Wales but I'm happy to see it being built in South East Wales. I've travelled extensively on the island of Ireland and I have been impressed with the quality of CAF's rolling stock, whether the mk. 4 carriages or the DMUs. I wish them luck!

 

[ac6000cw]

Imagine how much work GEC, Metro-Cammell, Brush and BREL would of had if they were still around today. It's incredible that the UK is is the only country of a reasonable size in Europe that does not have its own train building and yet has such a huge order sheet. It's wince-worthy to think of the incredible amount of research and development we have flushed away from this country that is now picked up by CAF, Alstom, Hitachi, Siemens etc.

GEC bought Metro-Cammell (because they didn't have train building capability of their own) and merged with Alstom at about the same time. GEC-Alstom then later proceeded to shoot themselves in both feet (late delivery of the Pendolinos, problems with the 175 and 180 DMUs and Juniper EMUs) so not surprisingly new train orders from the UK dried up, and the Washwood Heath factory closed as a consequence.

BREL became part of Bombardier by way of ABB and ADtranz. Even before privatisation, passenger rolling stock production was coalescing on Derby (as had the design capability). Once the original Networker program had finished, York works was probably doomed - the 365s were built partly for political reasons to keep York open a bit longer.

And of course Brush is still around (as Wabtec).

 

[43096]

GEC bought Metro-Cammell (because they didn't have train building capability of their own) and merged with Alstom at about the same time. GEC-Alstom then later proceeded to shoot themselves in both feet (late delivery of the Pendolinos, problems with the 175 and 180 DMUs and Juniper EMUs) so not surprisingly new train orders from the UK dried up, and the Washwood Heath factory closed as a consequence.

BREL became part of Bombardier by way of ABB and ADtranz. Even before privatisation, passenger rolling stock production was coalescing on Derby (as had the design capability). Once the original Networker program had finished, York works was probably doomed - the 365s were built partly for political reasons to keep York open a bit longer.

And of course Brush is still around (as Wabtec).

It was 1989 that saw the formation of GEC-Alsthom (note the 'h'!) as a 50:50 joint venture which included the power and transport businesses of CGE subsidiary Alsthom and the UK's GEC. Metro-Cammell became part of this also in 1989.

In 1998 the business was listed on the Paris stock exchange, renamed Alstom and GEC sold off its share.

The 'h' was dropped from the name as people didn't know how to pronounce it. The "thom" came from "Thomson Houston Electric Company" - hence the pronunciation. The "Als" is from "Société Alsacienne de Constructions Mécaniques".

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Imagine how much work GEC, Metro-Cammell, Brush and BREL would of had if they were still around today. It's incredible that the UK is is the only country of a reasonable size in Europe that does not have its own train building and yet has such a huge order sheet. It's wince-worthy to think of the incredible amount of research and development we have flushed away from this country that is now picked up by CAF, Alstom, Hitachi, Siemens etc.

It's not all sweetness and light with the "big" Euro-manufacturers either.
They are all in trouble with reducing order books and over capacity, with cut-backs regularly announced.
Except Stadler who seem to be mopping up with their bespoke capability.
CAF is in the middle - given a shot in the arm with the UK orders.

But Siemens, Bombardier and Alstom are all finding it difficult, with one eye on growing Chinese competition.
Ansaldo Breda recently changed hands, being bought by Hitachi, but their underlying trains business was dire (Hitachi bought it for the signalling assets).
Curiously, for once it's not the UK end of the market which is troublesome, it's the bread and butter national railways which are reducing their demand for new trains.

 

[RichmondCommu]

Ansaldo Breda recently changed hands, being bought by Hitachi, but their underlying trains business was dire (Hitachi bought it for the signalling assets).
Curiously, for once it's not the UK end of the market which is troublesome, it's the bread and butter national railways which are reducing their demand for new trains.

From memory they messed up the order for the new Netherlands high speed trains. I think they also screwed the Danes over too with an order for some diesel powered Intercity trains.

 

[ac6000cw]

Having looked at the discussion here I am pleased this plant is coming to the UK. I'm from North Wales but I'm happy to see it being built in South East Wales. I've travelled extensively on the island of Ireland and I have been impressed with the quality of CAF's rolling stock, whether the mk. 4 carriages or the DMUs. I wish them luck!

We do have some CAF rolling stock on the UK mainland as well - the 332 and 333 EMUs were built by CAF (in partnership with Siemens).

 

[ac6000cw]

From memory they messed up the order for the new Netherlands high speed trains. I think they also screwed the Danes over too with an order for some diesel powered Intercity trains.

They did. If you read the investigation report on the build (and design) quality of the Dutch V250 trainsets you probably wouldn't want to set foot on one. The whole fleet was withdrawn only a few months after commencing service, due to reliability and safety concerns. And they were delivered well late as well.

If normal market forces were at work, Ansaldo-Breda would probably have gone out of business years ago.

 

[CosherB]

From memory they messed up the order for the new Netherlands high speed trains. I think they also screwed the Danes over too with an order for some diesel powered Intercity trains.

Stuff of legend! hock:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hitachi_Rail_Italy#Italy

 

[gazthomas]

We do have some CAF rolling stock on the UK mainland as well - the 332 and 333 EMUs were built by CAF (in partnership with Siemens).

Of course - how silly of me! Good looking units.

 

[xotGD]

Of course - how silly of me! Good looking units.

If only the 333s didn't have 3+2 seating they would be nice units to travel on. Fortunately I'm normally in a Mark 4 or a 158 on the Skipton line.