GB Railfreight in 'locomotive acquisition' talks

[richieb1971]

GBRf MD John Smith stated years ago they would not go anywhere near the Class 56 fleet that was up for sale at the time. He stated it does not fit with GBRf fleet strategy, not only being extremely old in the grand scheme of freight locomotives but also hideously unreliable.

Understood. But thats with a 1976 design type engine in it. If UKRL realize their venture of putting new engines in the shells its quite possible they could match any statistics of a currently built loco.

60's are fine too. Since the production line for the super60 programme is sitting idle but ready to go (I would imagine), it doesn't make sense to look further afield. I am guessing all the remaining 60's are at Toton and they are best examples left?

 

[richieb1971]

Nobody mentioned 68's yet!!!

 

[Far north 37]

Nobody mentioned 68's yet!!!

there not really designed for heavy freight with only having four axles also theres none spare

 

[dgl]

Nobody mentioned 68's yet!!!

you'd have to pry them from DRS' cold dead hands and even then it wuld be difficult, also they cannot (as far as I am aware) be fitted with the required emissions kit for the new emissions regs. so no more can be constructed.

Therefore I would guess either new 70's (if at all possible), Super 60's or some off lease 66's (if some become available) with Super 60's being the obvious choice if DB want to sell.

 

[TimboM]

I don't think GBRf's very close working relationship with Brush/Wabtec and what they've done with the Brush-built 92s (and 73/9s) should be overlooked.

I'm fairly certain it's 60s they're looking at and not much else (bar perhaps some more 92s!).

GBRf already have underutilised 66s AFAIK - the last batch (6677x) haven't seen a great deal of action recently (bar "celebrity" 66779 which is in a different pool) and they have other 66s on hire to Colas (loosely) and DCR. It's not more 66s (or locos of this capability they really need). Been said before, but it's heavy haul locos for biomass and other existing/new work the 66s struggle with (e.g. HS2 aggregates?)

 

[fgwrich]

I don't think GBRf's very close working relationship with Brush/Wabtec and what they've done with the Brush-built 92s (and 73/9s) should be overlooked.

Indeed so. Any further loco rebuilds would highly likely be from the big and established works of BRUSH than the small sheds of UKRL in Leicester. A bit like the Class 73/9 rebuild scenario, with even NR being apparently more impressed by the GBRF / BRUSH offering than the RVEL of Derby "lego like" object.

 

[cj_1985]

Indeed so. Any further loco rebuilds would highly likely be from the big and established works of BRUSH than the small sheds of UKRL in Leicester. A bit like the Class 73/9 rebuild scenario, with even NR being apparently more impressed by the GBRF / BRUSH offering than the RVEL of Derby "lego like" object.

Is there any doubt about that... I mean the GBRf/BRUSH 73/9s were converted and tested, and in regular daily service before RVEL/Loram's 73/9s were even completed, despite work starting on them far earlier

 

[CosherB]

Understood. But thats with a 1976 design type engine in it. If UKRL realize their venture of putting new engines in the shells its quite possible they could match any statistics of a currently built loco.

60's are fine too. Since the production line for the super60 programme is sitting idle but ready to go (I would imagine), it doesn't make sense to look further afield. I am guessing all the remaining 60's are at Toton and they are best examples left?

That's the best laugh I've had today! Put a new engine in a 56 (if you can find a compliant one that will fit for a Type 5) and suddenly you have something akin to a Class 59. Priceless.

And I wouldn't be so sure that the DB Super 60 team is sitting around doing nothing waiting for more locos to be processed. I wouldn't be surprised if it has been effectively disbanded and it would be a big ask to get Toton back into the swing of things again anytime soon, hence the rumoured involvement of Wabtec. Even then, Wabtec are going to be on a steep learning curve on how to recondition a 60 with the help of DBC.

 

[Far north 37]

That's the best laugh I've had today! Put a new engine in a 56 (if you can find a compliant one that will fit for a Type 5) and suddenly you have something akin to a Class 59. Priceless.

And I wouldn't be so sure that the DB Super 60 team is sitting around doing nothing waiting for more locos to be processed. I wouldn't be surprised if it has been effectively disbanded and it would be a big ask to get Toton back into the swing of things again anytime soon, hence the rumoured involvement of Wabtec. Even then, Wabtec are going to be on a steep learning curve on how to recondition a 60 with the help of DBC.

they would also need more than a new engine they would to be able to accomodate all the electrics and other equipment i still doubt they would be able to have the haulage capabilities of a class 59 60 or 70

 

[CosherB]

they would also need more than a new engine they would to be able to accomodate all the electrics and other equipment i still doubt they would be able to have the haulage capabilities of a class 59 60 or 70

Exactly. Just refurbish some 60s, job done.

 

[Far north 37]

Exactly. Just refurbish some 60s, job done.

its the only logical option also i believe brush were involved in the super 60 programme and there close relationship with gbrf makes this the most sensible idea.

 

[fgwrich]

its the only logical option also i believe brush were involved in the super 60 programme and there close relationship with gbrf makes this the most sensible idea.

BRUSH Should have some involvement with the Super 60 project as they built the things in the first place! It does make me wonder though, who has all the paperwork - Does Brush have it all in stock in Lougborough, or Has DB stashed a lot of it away to effectively allow the sale of any potential 60s if refurbished by them?

 

[CosherB]

Perhaps it's time to dig this article out once more for reference ......

http://www.railmagazine.com/trains/current-trains/making-the-class-60s-super-again

 

[Far north 37]

BRUSH Should have some involvement with the Super 60 project as they built the things in the first place! It does make me wonder though, who has all the paperwork - Does Brush have it all in stock in Lougborough, or Has DB stashed a lot of it away to effectively allow the sale of any potential 60s if refurbished by them?

id imagine they would both have the relevant paperwork brush as designers and builders and db as owners.

 

[Kettledrum]

What about 70's? Are all stocks depleted now?

My preference is either the 56's at Leicester or the 60's at Toton to come back into service.

Remember we have a whole fleet of 58's in Spain and France doing nothing. If bulk buying is a consideration I'm sure you'd get value for money there.

.

 

[furnessvale]

I don't think GBRf's very close working relationship with Brush/Wabtec and what they've done with the Brush-built 92s (and 73/9s) should be overlooked.

I'm fairly certain it's 60s they're looking at and not much else (bar perhaps some more 92s!).

GBRf already have underutilised 66s AFAIK - the last batch (6677x) haven't seen a great deal of action recently (bar "celebrity" 66779 which is in a different pool) and they have other 66s on hire to Colas (loosely) and DCR. It's not more 66s (or locos of this capability they really need). Been said before, but it's heavy haul locos for biomass and other existing/new work the 66s struggle with (e.g. HS2 aggregates?)

Presumably the underutilised 66s cannot simply be put "off lease"?

That being the case, and given that most of the heavier trains will not exceed length limits, why go to the expense of hiring/buying more locos, rather than double heading locos you are paying for but not using?

 

[cj_1985]

Presumably the underutilised 66s cannot simply be put "off lease"?

That being the case, and given that most of the heavier trains will not exceed length limits, why go to the expense of hiring/buying more locos, rather than double heading locos you are paying for but not using?

last I heard, the 66s in question are/were owned outright by GBRf... so need not be off leased. simply stored until needed, with occasional running of the engine

 

[TimboM]

Presumably the underutilised 66s cannot simply be put "off lease"?

That being the case, and given that most of the heavier trains will not exceed length limits, why go to the expense of hiring/buying more locos, rather than double heading locos you are paying for but not using?

I think the situation is more that GBRf are growing their business rapidly - there's a lot of fallout from DB's current woes, plus potential new work in the pipeline.

Based on what they know/predict is in the pipeline they're needing a bigger fleet - in addition to any spare capacity they have currently. First up they'd use any of this slack - including these underutilised 66s and also including resurrecting the two least-rusty of their stored 92s.

This potential loco acquisition is for demand after they've used up that slack. So they'll be looking at what they have and what they need...

Known/expected growth in 66-suitable traffic: they have spare 66 capacity that'll be ear-marked for that no doubt.

Known/expected growth in channel tunnel/heavy-haul A/C traffic: they have (some) 92s for that.

Known/expected growth in heavy-haul diesel traffic: have a gap - hence looking at 60s as the most likely option (as per rationale in numerous posts above). Or in other words, doubling up the currently-spare 66s isn't a (long-term) solution as those 66s will also needed for expected growth elsewhere.

Logically (and GBRf are pretty logical to be fair) they're only looking at the expense of more locos as they have more work coming their way than they have the traction for currently.

 

[Far north 37]

I think the situation is more that GBRf are growing their business rapidly - there's a lot of fallout from DB's current woes, plus potential new work in the pipeline.

Based on what they know/predict is in the pipeline they're needing a bigger fleet - in addition to any spare capacity they have currently. First up they'd use any of this slack - including these underutilised 66s and also including resurrecting the two least-rusty of their stored 92s.

This potential loco acquisition is for demand after they've used up that slack. So they'll be looking at what they have and what they need...

Known/expected growth in 66-suitable traffic: they have spare 66 capacity that'll be ear-marked for that no doubt.

Known/expected growth in channel tunnel/heavy-haul A/C traffic: they have (some) 92s for that.

Known/expected growth in heavy-haul diesel traffic: have a gap - hence looking at 60s as the most likely option (as per rationale in numerous posts above). Or in other words, doubling up the currently-spare 66s isn't a (long-term) solution as those 66s will also needed for expected growth elsewhere.

Logically (and GBRf are pretty logical to be fair) they're only looking at the expense of more locos as they have more work coming their way than they have the traction for currently.

yes they must have some serious expected growth in the heavy freight market to be looking at this option or as you say they could just use the spare traction they have.

 

[TimboM]

yes they must have some serious expected growth in the heavy freight market to be looking at this option or as you say they could just use the spare traction they have.

Indeed, they're not digging out two 92s that've been stored for 11 and 16 years or looking at 60s in a not-too-dissimilar state for weekend railtours...!

They're either doing it as they've a good idea of what's coming their way, or doing it so they have the capability to go after a bigger market share, or a bit of both.

 

[RichmondCommu]

And I wouldn't be so sure that the DB Super 60 team is sitting around doing nothing waiting for more locos to be processed. I wouldn't be surprised if it has been effectively disbanded and it would be a big ask to get Toton back into the swing of things again anytime soon, hence the rumoured involvement of Wabtec. Even then, Wabtec are going to be on a steep learning curve on how to recondition a 60 with the help of DBC.

I'm aware that DB made 900 people redundant but did that include engineering staff at Toton?

 

[Far north 37]

Indeed, they're not digging out two 92s that've been stored for 11 and 16 years or looking at 60s in a not-too-dissimilar state for weekend railtours...!

They're either doing it as they've a good idea of what's coming their way, or doing it so they have the capability to go after a bigger market share, or a bit of both.

looks like gbrf are gearing up to become the biggest freight operator in the country.
be nice to see a class 60 in gbrf colours than sitting rotting on a scrapline.

 

[cj_1985]

Indeed, they're not digging out two 92s that've been stored for 11 and 16 years or looking at 60s in a not-too-dissimilar state for weekend railtours...!

They're either doing it as they've a good idea of what's coming their way, or doing it so they have the capability to go after a bigger market share, or a bit of both.

Perhaps this would be better asked on the GB/CS 92 thread, but...

is there anything to confirm that the two 92s at Loughborough are in fact being returned to mainline condition.

I know it was mentioned that at least one of the 92s in question had had it's 'polos' removed... but IIRC did GBRf not auction off a set of 'polo mints' on ebay a few years back. SO surely it's just as easy to believe that the 'polos' removed from the 92 at BRUSH, could have been removed some years ago.

As for 'new' locomotives... Are 60s the only likely options?
I mean we have had the (limited) batch of heavy haul 66s... surely it wouldn't be impossible for GB to convert a few 66's to the same spec as FHHs 66/6s be they from their existing stable, leased from DB or FHH, or leased/Bought from Europe as per 66747/748/749/750/751

 

[Far north 37]

id imagine gb know exactly what locos are becoming available and 66/6s arent as powerful as the other locos they are looking into at the moment cant see a 66 conversion having the heavy haul capability a 60 has.

 

[TimboM]

Perhaps this would be better asked on the GB/CS 92 thread, but...

is there anything to confirm that the two 92s at Loughborough are in fact being returned to mainline condition.

I know it was mentioned that at least one of the 92s in question had had it's 'polos' removed... but IIRC did GBRf not auction off a set of 'polo mints' on ebay a few years back. SO surely it's just as easy to believe that the 'polos' removed from the 92 at BRUSH, could have been removed some years ago.

There's plenty on the "Caledonian 92s" on that thread, but these shots of 92006 from two weeks ago (courtesy Tim R-T-C) at Brush quite clearly have it being prepped for painting (masked up vents, headlights etc.):

https://flic.kr/p/WbZdEK
https://flic.kr/p/Va1spZ

The 'mints' have been taken off in the last few weeks as here's the most recent shot of 006 before the ones above - from Jan this year with the polos still on: https://flic.kr/p/RCq6Sb

It was also confirmed in a well-sourced article in this month's Modern Railways (which included direct quotes from John Smith, MD) that they're bringing the operational fleet up to 12. 92020 is the other one to come back. Anyhow, we digress...

As for 'new' locomotives... Are 60s the only likely options?
I mean we have had the (limited) batch of heavy haul 66s... surely it wouldn't be impossible for GB to convert a few 66's to the same spec as FHHs 66/6s be they from their existing stable, leased from DB or FHH, or leased/Bought from Europe as per 66747/748/749/750/751

These could well be valid for heavy haul, but as per my post a few back, it would appear they're needing more locos (net of what they've got) - so if they converted some of their less-used 66s they'd still have the same number of locos and would still be looking for more... and would probably need some 66-type locos like the ones they used to have...!

So if they a) need more locos full stop and b) need more in their fleet that are heavy-haul, then simplest option is the 60s I would think?

 

[Suraggu]

It is a shame all those years ago GBRf didnt order a UK spec Voith Maxima 40CC. In late 08/09 they were reported to be looking at the product but more 66's came their way.

 

[Chrisgr31]

Is the rail freight market in the UK increasing in size? If not surely all the work that GBRF has got / is getting comes from other freight companies. In that case surely it makes sense to buy their locos?

 

[TimboM]

Is the rail freight market in the UK increasing in size? If not surely all the work that GBRF has got / is getting comes from other freight companies. In that case surely it makes sense to buy their locos?

It's contracting (pretty rapidly) currently isn't it? So yes, makes sense... although of course they'd be buying locos that the other company(s) have and don't use, so would still be net additional locos in service (or would be counteracted by, say, DB storing more of theirs (such as 66s) if they lose work).

This also touches on the old chestnut about whether DB would sell/hire locos to a competitor to take business away from them? Although if that business is already going because DB is unable to service it properly and allied to that if finances aren't great, then maybe it does become the 'best of a bad job' for DB (i.e. at least they get money in for the locos).

 

[furnessvale]

It's contracting (pretty rapidly) currently isn't it? So yes, makes sense... although of course they'd be buying locos that the other company(s) have and don't use, so would still be net additional locos in service (or would be counteracted by, say, DB storing more of theirs (such as 66s) if they lose work).

This also touches on the old chestnut about whether DB would sell/hire locos to a competitor to take business away from them? Although if that business is already going because DB is unable to service it properly and allied to that if finances aren't great, then maybe it does become the 'best of a bad job' for DB (i.e. at least they get money in for the locos).

The contraction has been the unseemly race by the government to eliminate coal fired power stations.

That race is now virtually over. Most other traffics are increasing, so from now on the only way is up! (sounds like a song title).

 

[CosherB]

It is a shame all those years ago GBRf didnt order a UK spec Voith Maxima 40CC. In late 08/09 they were reported to be looking at the product but more 66's came their way.

Why? Does a UK-spec Maxima exist? Do we need a relatively unproven 5,000hp loco?