Former Grand Central HSTs now with EMT

[Muzer]

Long Swing Link and Short Swing Link. It's to do with the way the suspension is implemented (some magic with pendulum effects or something); originally LSL was used but it was found that this could impede on the third rail, so SSL bogies that don't have this problem must be used in third rail areas.

 

[fgwrich]

Could these acronyms please be translated into English?

Furthermore, I have always believed that one of the forum rules documented somewhere mentions not to use acronyms or abbreviations without first saying what they mean. I would like to note that this is not intended as a rant.

LSL & SSL Stand for Long Swing Link and Short Swing Link. These are not acronyms as such (unlike talking in station codes for example) but are actually to do with the design and type of bogie underneath the Mk3s.

I could sum it up but this cold is taking too much out of my tonight, so see post No.9 on this forum about it. If you look closely at the picture of the Bogies, you can just about see where the LSL & SSL come into play on the bogie and why it's unfortunately such an issue - see under the 'spring plank' / central air suspension.

http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=15602.0

In short though, SSL bogies are permitted to run onto the Southern region. LSL Bogies are not, due to the risk of the swing links coming into contact with the third rail.

 

[43096]

LSL & SSL Stand for Long Swing Link and Short Swing Link. These are not acronyms as such (unlike talking in station codes for example) but are actually to do with the design and type of bogie underneath the Mk3s.



I could sum it up but this cold is taking too much out of my tonight, so see post No.9 on this forum about it. If you look closely at the picture of the Bogies, you can just about see where the LSL & SSL come into play on the bogie and why it's unfortunately such an issue - see under the 'spring plank' / central air suspension.



http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=15602.0



In short though, SSL bogies are permitted to run onto the Southern region. LSL Bogies are not, due to the risk of the swing links coming into contact with the third rail.

In normal service it is a theoretical risk. It's only in certain suspension failure scenarios in some locations that anything might actually happen.

 

[70271]

In normal service it is a theoretical risk. It's only in certain suspension failure scenarios in some locations that anything might actually happen.

Thus is correct, proved by the fact of having been on a mostly LSL HST set over third rail and no sparks being seen!

 

[Scotrail84]

Not so. There's the LM 350s for a start...

And the sleeper.

 

[Class 170101]

I hope they go to XC and they use them 7 days a week.

HSTs to XC for 7 day a week usage but not the 180s. See below though for a suggestion.

Its odd that Arriva put so much effort into obtaining the paths to then fail to obtain tilting stock, which was always a prerequisite. The only alternative tilting option I can think of is a messy swap between Grand Central and Cross Country, which I doubt NR and DfT would allow. New stock could be bought for Cross Country who could cascade 5-6 Voyagers (pressuming the tilting gear is still in storage and can be reinstalled). The time difference with no stops between Crewe and London between a Voyager and a Pendolino is about 5.5 minutes (was discussed in detail a while back). That would only leave a 90 second window between the xx33 and xx40 paths between London and Crewe but slight alterations to the time table could create a sufficient gap. Grand Central could undertake a long overdue upgrade of tbe Cross Country Voyagers before switching them.

How about the Grand Central HSTs for Cross Country and the Tilting Voyagers (though I don't think XC have many) to Grand Central for their Blackpool service instead?

Also aren't Grand Central propsing to call at Nuneaton and some other places along the Trent Valley so the xx40 from Euston should be able to pass along there unaffected.

 

[cjmillsnun]

Are the GC HSTs coaches LSL or SSL bogies?

They'll be LSL as they were originally LHCS which were all LSL.

 

[70271]

They'll be LSL as they were originally LHCS which were all LSL.

They'll be whatever came off the bogie overhaul production line at the time these days.

 

[Chester1]

HSTs to XC for 7 day a week usage but not the 180s. See below though for a suggestion.



How about the Grand Central HSTs for Cross Country and the Tilting Voyagers (though I don't think XC have many) to Grand Central for their Blackpool service instead?

Also aren't Grand Central propsing to call at Nuneaton and some other places along the Trent Valley so the xx40 from Euston should be able to pass along there unaffected.

Cross Country have 23 Super Voyagers which were originally capable of tilting but the equipment was removed because it wasn't needed but could be reinstalled. Grand Central would need a maximium of 6 Voyagers to start services (their bid was for 6 coach units so an extra unit for doubling up would be helpful).

Grand Central only have 3 x 5 coach HSTs and while more could be obtained from elsewhere I doubt NR and DfT would agree to amend the franchise agreement to allow Voyagers to be swapped for HSTs, even if extra coaches were obtained to increase lengths past GCs 5 carriages. They could sanction 6 brand new trains for Cross Country because it would be an improvement to the current rolling stock. However, IEPs couldn't arrive in time and I am struggling to think of any DMU order they coule be tagged onto and be ready by 2018.

 

[Townsend Hook]

When it happens that'll be me travelling between London and Sunderland on VTEC. I can't take the terrible vibration at speed on 180s.

I've never found them to be too bad myself. Better than the Voyager family.

 

[47271]

I've never found them to be too bad myself. Better than the Voyager family.

I don't get on with Voyager vibration either, both types of train make me feel slightly queasy, and that's before we get on to the pong on Voyagers.

The buzz on 180s is made even worse by the tables not being attached to the walls.

 

[J-2739]

Long Swing Link and Short Swing Link. It's to do with the way the suspension is implemented (some magic with pendulum effects or something); originally LSL was used but it was found that this could impede on the third rail, so SSL bogies that don't have this problem must be used in third rail areas.

Superb! I'll put it in my abbreviation thread!

 

[The Planner]

So did I until I read their TAA which says they can get contingent rights if they use any other stock type that is cleared in the SA.

And then the clause that says their rights fall away if they don't operate by 1700 on the PCD 2018.

Desperate measures?

Contingent being the operative word, in other words they have a right to run paths that fit. If they dont then tough they dont run, firm rights means they have to be made to fit.

 

[Muzer]

Sorry to resurrect this thread, but now that the IEP introduction has been delayed, anyone any ideas of new timescales for HST withdrawal on Grand Central? Presumably GWR will now be in no hurry to get rid of their 180s.

 

[43096]

Sorry to resurrect this thread, but now that the IEP introduction has been delayed, anyone any ideas of new timescales for HST withdrawal on Grand Central? Presumably GWR will now be in no hurry to get rid of their 180s.

Still the end of the year AFAIAA. Don't forget that Old Oak effectively shuts in December (which is why sleeper servicing switches to Reading), so the 180s would have no maintenance home on Great Western.

 

[IanXC]

One GWR 180 has now transferred to GC. 180108 if I recall correctly. Currently running in debranded dynamic lines livery.

 

[Rich McLean]

The other 4 180s need to be in service ready for the December TT change, as the 3 HST sets at Heaton are being replaced by the 5 XC HST sets simultaneously. If this gets delayed it has a knock on effect for AXC as the contract with VTEC ends.

In short the fitters employed maintaining the GC sets will be doing the same work on the XC sets from December.

GWR have to release the sets on time.

All 180s from December will now be allocated to Crofton with light maintenance at Heaton.

 

[HST43277]

What's happening to the grand central Hsts when GC get all the 180s? I

 

[Bornin1980s]

^Going to scrap, presumably. They have had a long life.

 

[59CosG95]

^Going to scrap, presumably. They have had a long life.

I heard some info floating about on the internet that AXC may take them on; this was quite a few months ago, and the rolling stock cascade situation seems to be changing more than the country's political climate! Scrap would seem a likely alternative, but who knows?

 

[cactustwirly]

The other 4 180s need to be in service ready for the December TT change, as the 3 HST sets at Heaton are being replaced by the 5 XC HST sets simultaneously. If this gets delayed it has a knock on effect for AXC as the contract with VTEC ends.

In short the fitters employed maintaining the GC sets will be doing the same work on the XC sets from December.

GWR have to release the sets on time.

All 180s from December will now be allocated to Crofton with light maintenance at Heaton.

Which all depends on whether the 80xs are introduced on time.

 

[Clarence Yard]

Which all depends on whether the 80xs are introduced on time.

No. The 180 units have to leave GW whether or not the 80x units are in service. They have no choice over this.

 

[Rich McLean]

Which all depends on whether the 80xs are introduced on time.

There will be enough 800s in service by the December TT change, plus OC closes in December, so nowhere to maintain them. The remaining HSTs will be at Laira, St Phillips Marsh or Landore. So the release of 180s won't be effected.

 

[nat67]

Hi everyone,

I read earlier on that GC intends to return its 3 HST sets to its lessor and operate an all Class 180 fleet. (http://www.railtechnologymagazine.c...ng-a-uniform-approach-class-180s-replace-hsts)

Does anyone know when exactly the HSTs will be withdrawn?

It should be the December timetable change I think

 

[nat67]

^Going to scrap, presumably. They have had a long life.

What 40 years in service they are still useful and some of the best machines

 

[nat67]

HSTs to XC for 7 day a week usage but not the 180s. See below though for a suggestion.



How about the Grand Central HSTs for Cross Country and the Tilting Voyagers (though I don't think XC have many) to Grand Central for their Blackpool service instead?

Also aren't Grand Central propsing to call at Nuneaton and some other places along the Trent Valley so the xx40 from Euston should be able to pass along there unaffected.

GC doesnt go up the WCML or go to Blackpool. Only ECML up to Bradford. And XC have about 15-20 221 and 34 220, that's a lot of voyagers:-x

 

[nat67]

Cross Country have 23 Super Voyagers which were originally capable of tilting but the equipment was removed because it wasn't needed but could be reinstalled. Grand Central would need a maximium of 6 Voyagers to start services (their bid was for 6 coach units so an extra unit for doubling up would be helpful).

Grand Central only have 3 x 5 coach HSTs and while more could be obtained from elsewhere I doubt NR and DfT would agree to amend the franchise agreement to allow Voyagers to be swapped for HSTs, even if extra coaches were obtained to increase lengths past GCs 5 carriages. They could sanction 6 brand new trains for Cross Country because it would be an improvement to the current rolling stock. However, IEPs couldn't arrive in time and I am struggling to think of any DMU order they coule be tagged onto and be ready by 2018.

They are 6 coach HST sets actually

 

[roversfan2001]

GC doesnt go up the WCML or go to Blackpool. Only ECML up to Bradford. And XC have about 15-20 221 and 34 220, that's a lot of voyagers:-x

GC have submitted plans for an open access service to Blackpool North.

 

[Darandio]

GC doesnt go up the WCML or go to Blackpool. Only ECML up to Bradford.

Not yet at least.....

Only ECML up to Bradford.

And Sunderland.

What 40 years in service they are still useful and some of the best machines

Some will be scrapped though, it's inevitable.

 

[Rich McLean]

GC have submitted plans for an open access service to Blackpool North.

It doesn't mean ORR and NR will grant them the paths and the Voyager fleet is leased to the XC franchise. It's not that simple to sub lease sets between franchise and Open access operators, especially as the XC 221s will need extensive work to reinstall the tilting mechanism. The GC HST sets are off lease in December and DfT will not allow Arriva to lease them for XC.