RMT dispute on Merseyrail

[Carlisle]

I am stongly in favour of DOO on Merseyrail but this is wrong and they will be forced to U turn. Removing the oppertunity to become a driver will make guards even less likely to accept DOO. You would think logically that Merseyrail would want as many guards to switch roles as fast as possible and replace them with fixed term contract staff until 2021.

Short sighted franchises/management combined with union power meant soon after the end of BR, wages/T&C,s etc were always sufficent to attract plenty of outside applications for TOC vacancies, so the old fashioned loyalty and promotion regime on the railways anyway is almost completely non existent nowadays, indeed it has been for quite some time

 

[Camden]

Perhaps the solution is to open the trainee drivers positions up to the general public.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I am stongly in favour of DOO on Merseyrail but this is wrong and they will be forced to U turn. Removing the oppertunity to become a driver will make guards even less likely to accept DOO. You would think logically that Merseyrail would want as many guards to switch roles as fast as possible and replace them with fixed term contract staff until 2021.

I agree. Fully in support of DOO on Merseyrail, but against this particular piece of antagonistic silliness.

 

[danbarnstall]

Rumour has it several other grades will be going into dispute shortly (Not Drivers).

 

[185143]

I agree. Fully in support of DOO on Merseyrail, but against this particular piece of antagonistic silliness.

I'm strongly anti-DOO, but surely anyone can see a TOC attempting a transition to DOO needs to do as much as it can to reduce resistance from guards and passengers. It's as if they've learnt *nothing* from GTR Southern. Based on things I've been told by guards-it certainly has worsened feelings between staff and management!

 

[Carlisle]

I'm strongly anti-DOO, but surely anyone can see a TOC attempting a transition to DOO needs to do as much as it can to reduce resistance from guards and passengers. It's as if they've learnt *nothing* from GTR Southern. Based on things I've been told by guards-it certainly has worsened feelings between staff and management!

How can it be done differently? I'm sure your aware that a hint of any additional DOO or change of guards safety critical status will if genuine eventually always trigger an RMT strike ballot, so unless the Company decide to capitulate Scotrail style, there isn't realistically much alternative to the strategies the likes of Merseyrail, Northern or GTR have adopted

 

[Kite159]

How can it be done differently? I'm sure your aware that a hint of any additional DOO or change of guards safety critical status will if genuine eventually always trigger an RMT strike ballot, so unless the Company decide to capitulate Scotrail style, there isn't realistically much alternative to the strategies the likes of Merseyrail, Northern or GTR have adopted

Unless the (Labour controlled) Merseytravel decides to do a U-turn, finding that behind their large sofa they suddenly can afford both the new trains and keeping non-commercial guards, maybe with large fare increases or cutting back on other items within the council area.

The RMT will never be happy as the reduction of guards means a reduction of subscription income

 

[jamesst]

The major fact being overlooked here is the complete lack of trust between workers and management across all grades.

Whilst Merseyrail are up on the leader board as leaders in terms of punctuality, reliability and customer service does any thanks for this filter down to the workers? Do any of the workers believe managements talk of 60 customer service positions and all guards being reallocated positions in the company?
Is there a reason the strike vote was so high amongst the guards? Is there a reason other grades are backing them?

Forget about DOO/DCO (whatever it's called this week), forget about the unions and the posturing and instead concentrate on those questions. Problems have been building and been routinely ignored over a long time and this is the result.

 

[M28361M]

Strike timetables for 8 and 10 July now available at https://www.merseyrail.org/strike-action/strike-timetables.aspx

Broadly similar to previous strikes, with trains running 0700-1900 but with a gap around midday. Notably no trains around the Liverpool loop, all terminating at James Street.

 

[Carlisle]

The major fact being overlooked here is the complete lack of trust between workers and management across all grades.

Whilst Merseyrail are up on the leader board as leaders in terms of punctuality, reliability and customer service does any thanks for this filter down to the workers? Do any of the workers believe managements talk of 60 customer service positions and all guards being reallocated positions in the company?
Is there a reason the strike vote was so high amongst the guards? Is there a reason other grades are backing them?

Forget about DOO/DCO (whatever it's called this week), forget about the unions and the posturing and instead concentrate on those questions. Problems have been building and been routinely ignored over a long time and this is the result.

I'm sure like many Companies Merseyrail management has its fair share of faults and problems, and lots of us myself included feel undervalued at work sometimes, but this dispute is only about preventing DOO, RMTs always opposed it, resisting it in various ways over the years but with only very limited success. until 2015 when ASLEF joined their campaign,which no doubt helped gain them victory in Scotland last year and presumably is their ultimate goal in this and the other DOO disputes

 

[455driver]

Have ASLEF been officially approached about accepting DOO on MerseyRail yet?

If they havent then they cannot be in dispute as they havent got anything to be in dispute about!

This is the reason ASLEF have been very quiet during RMT disputes on other TOCs.

 

[kw12]

Have ASLEF been officially approached about accepting DOO on MerseyRail yet?

If they havent then they cannot be in dispute as they havent got anything to be in dispute about!

This is the reason ASLEF have been very quiet during RMT disputes on other TOCs.

ASLEF can, and do, initiate disputes without waiting to be approached by employers. For example, if they wished ASLEF could initiate a dispute about DOO by asking Merseyrail for assurances (by a certain date) that there will be no introduction of DOO on Merseyrail and when they do not get those assurances ASLEF would be in formal dispute with this employer.

Thus there must be another reason why ASLEF have (so far) been very quiet during the RMT disputes on Merseyrail and Northern, even though they have got involved and taken over the lead on Southern (where the extension of DOO to non-metro services took place six months ago yesterday, despite action by ASLEF).

 

[craigybagel]

ASLEF can, and do, initiate disputes without waiting to be approached by employers. For example, if they wished ASLEF could initiate a dispute about DOO by asking Merseyrail for assurances (by a certain date) that there will be no introduction of DOO on Merseyrail and when they do not get those assurances ASLEF would be in formal dispute with this employer.

Thus there must be another reason why ASLEF have (so far) been very quiet during the RMT disputes on Merseyrail and Northern, even though they have got involved and taken over the lead on Southern (where the extension of DOO to non-metro services took place six months ago yesterday, despite action by ASLEF).

Why get involved now when they don't need to? Wait and see how the RMT strikes pan out and if it looks like DOO is inevitable, then go on strike. Striking early will just cost ASLEF members even more.

 

[furnessvale]

Why get involved now when they don't need to? Wait and see how the RMT strikes pan out and if it looks like DOO is inevitable, then go on strike. Striking early will just cost ASLEF members even more.

Or just accept DOO, just as guards were totally unconcerned when the secondman went off the footplate at the end of steam.

 

[74A]

ASLEF can, and do, initiate disputes without waiting to be approached by employers. For example, if they wished ASLEF could initiate a dispute about DOO by asking Merseyrail for assurances (by a certain date) that there will be no introduction of DOO on Merseyrail and when they do not get those assurances ASLEF would be in formal dispute with this employer.

Thus there must be another reason why ASLEF have (so far) been very quiet during the RMT disputes on Merseyrail and Northern, even though they have got involved and taken over the lead on Southern (where the extension of DOO to non-metro services took place six months ago yesterday, despite action by ASLEF).

ASLEF have not gone into dispute about DOO because they cannot. They tried that with Southern and lost a couple of expensive court cases. At Southern they are in dispute about the failure of GTR to come to an agreement about the extension DOO not about DOO itself.

So realistically until the new trains arrive and drivers are told to drive them then at that point ASLEF will go into dispute.

 

[craigybagel]

Or just accept DOO, just as guards were totally unconcerned when the secondman went off the footplate at the end of steam.

Given how even on Southern they've fought against it, despite the fact they already have DOO across most of that franchise, I can't see them agreeing to it on Merseyrail too readily - given both the lack of DOO anywhere near that part of the world, and the increased militancy of staff there. You only have to look at how the original strike timetable rapidly fell apart when drivers refused to cross RMT picket lines to see that they're not like to accept it here without a fight.

 

[Robertj21a]

Given how even on Southern they've fought against it, despite the fact they already have DOO across most of that franchise, I can't see them agreeing to it on Merseyrail too readily - given both the lack of DOO anywhere near that part of the world, and the increased militancy of staff there. You only have to look at how the original strike timetable rapidly fell apart when drivers refused to cross RMT picket lines to see that they're not like to accept it here without a fight.

Unfortunately, to an outsider, the Merseyrail DOO issue seems very clear cut. Aren't they only introducing DOO when they put the new trains into service ? - designed to be operated by just the driver ? - with no compulsory redundancies ?

Isn't the 'increased militancy of staff there' rather at odds with the Labour-dominated authorities who agreed to these arrangements ?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Isn't the 'increased militancy of staff there' rather at odds with the Labour-dominated authorities who agreed to these arrangements ?

Indeed, they can't complain of Peter Wilkinson's "war", or the "basket case TOC" when it's their local Labour-controlled democratically-elected body who decided the DOO policy.
They only have to look 35 miles east and observe TfGM and Metrolink to see how other non-DfT modern metro systems operate with minimal staffing.

 

[313103]

Or just accept DOO, just as guards were totally unconcerned when the secondman went off the footplate at the end of steam.

Totally incorrect!

The end of steam was in 1968, that was the beginning of the grade of secondmen or Drivers Assistants as they were officially called. The grade of Drivers Assistant was actually got rid of in 1988 as a result of the Traincrew Concept.

 

[313103]

Indeed, they can't complain of Peter Wilkinson's "war", or the "basket case TOC" when it's their local Labour-controlled democratically-elected body who decided the DOO policy.
They only have to look 35 miles east and observe TfGM and Metrolink to see how other non-DfT modern metro systems operate with minimal staffing.

They can and they do, please note also that the RMT are not affiliated to the Labour Party. But i see where your going with the minimal staffing comment.

 

[Robertj21a]

They can and they do, please note also that the RMT are not affiliated to the Labour Party. But i see where your going with the minimal staffing comment.

They might not now be affiliated (they used to be) but they are supporters of the Labour Party, as confirmed by them in the recent General Election.

 

[313103]

They might not now be affiliated (they used to be) but they are supporters of the Labour Party, as confirmed by them in the recent General Election.

They were as the ASRS the founding members of the Labour party, until they were expelled by a certain Mr Blair. Yes of course they are going to ask people to vote and give support to the Labour Party, i mean they are hardly going to ask people to vote tory bearing in mind the amount they have done to try and destroy the trade union movement in this country.

 

[craigybagel]

Unfortunately, to an outsider, the Merseyrail DOO issue seems very clear cut. Aren't they only introducing DOO when they put the new trains into service ? - designed to be operated by just the driver ? - with no compulsory redundancies ?

Isn't the 'increased militancy of staff there' rather at odds with the Labour-dominated authorities who agreed to these arrangements ?

Clear cut it may be, but that doesn't mean the driver's are going to be any more agreeable to it.

 

[Robertj21a]

Clear cut it may be, but that doesn't mean the driver's are going to be any more agreeable to it.

No, quite. But at least there's little to debate (unlike Southern), it's just a simple difference of opinion.

 

[Chester1]

Unfortunately, to an outsider, the Merseyrail DOO issue seems very clear cut. Aren't they only introducing DOO when they put the new trains into service ? - designed to be operated by just the driver ? - with no compulsory redundancies ?

Isn't the 'increased militancy of staff there' rather at odds with the Labour-dominated authorities who agreed to these arrangements ?

Merseyrail is recruiting guards on fixed term 3-4 year old contracts. They will not be renewed and will recieve minimal redundancy pay. They have (and will be) be recruited knowng this and it is still a good oppertunity to be trained as guards and work elsewhere. No permenant guards will be made compulsory redundant. Any other jobs are being offered internally first but Merseyrail is unfortunately not recruiting guards who have striked often to be drivers. 60 permenant guards will become OBS, some will have become drivers and the remaining permenant guards will be switched to customer service roles. I think voluntary redundancy packages may be offered. The catch to Merseyrail's promise is it doesn't apply to fixed term guards who are needed to cover the gap between the decision to introduce DOO and the new trains entering service. It is a very different situation to Southern and I have little sympathy for Merseyrail guards, they will still have a job, have the same pay and 60 will still be based on trains (which have be tailored for DOO and the local network).

 

[Carlisle]

The catch to Merseyrail's promise is it doesn't apply to fixed term guards who are needed to cover the gap between the decision to introduce DOO and the new trains entering service..

True, however TOCs have been recruiting staff of various grades on fixed term contracts for many years now and I've never really heard the unions shouting or even whispering from the rooftops about most of this

 

[Bletchleyite]

True, however TOCs have been recruiting staff of various grades on fixed term contracts for many years now and I've never really heard the unions shouting or even whispering from the rooftops about most of this

And if you take a short term contract, that is your choice. You know what you're choosing.

 

[shakey1961]

I've just started to listen to this. I don't know if this helps anyone?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p055nqnk

 

[Carlisle]

I've just started to listen to this. I don't know if this helps anyone?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p055nqnk

a reaasolly informative and fairly balanced debate covering most sides of the argument I thought

 

[footprints]

a reaasolly informative and fairly balanced debate covering most sides of the argument I thought

It was balanced in that both sides were represented, but I thought as a PR exercise it was far more successful for Merseyrail than the RMT. The union spokesman struggled to come up with reasons why DOO was unacceptable on Merseyrail, citing the presence of level crossings on the network and then bringing up Grenfell Tower. Pretty desperate stuff.