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Huge fire in Grenfell Tower - West London

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Tetchytyke

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Because caveat emptor. This development always had affordable housing in it.

I guess what's happened is that they've read the government press release about the Grenfell Tower residents going into "luxury accommodation" and reached the obvious- but wrong- conclusion that they're getting something for nothing. But they're not. They're just going in the normal affordable housing units.
 
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Darandio

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This headline doesn't in any way skew opinion, does it....

Note that the caption says....

More than 60 multi-million pound flats at the exclusive Kensington Row complex have been lined up for victims of the inferno that left 79 dead.

Which does suggest that the much more expensive and exclusive properties are being used, when it's known not to be the case.

_96586118_star.jpg
 
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Railops

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As it seems there was a hell of a lot of illegal subletting going on, will the legal and illegal tenants both get housing. ?
 

Dai Corner

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This headline doesn't in any way skew opinion, does it....

Note that the caption says....



Which does suggest that the much more expensive and exclusive properties are being used, when it's known not to be the case.

_96586118_star.jpg

In fact, the 68 flats are being sold by the developers at cost price. About £150k each.
 

AlterEgo

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As it seems there was a hell of a lot of illegal subletting going on, will the legal and illegal tenants both get housing. ?

That question hasn't been answered - though even illegal subletters would have been made homeless so one assumes the council have a duty to rehome them.

I am not sure if the government has declared an amnesty on Grenfell residents who are in the country illegally, either.
 

najaB

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In fact, the 68 flats are being sold by the developers at cost price. About £150k each.
£5 million flats being sold at cost price of £150K. Tells you all you need to know about what's wrong with the London/SE housing market really.
 

Dai Corner

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£5 million flats being sold at cost price of £150K. Tells you all you need to know about what's wrong with the London/SE housing market really.

I don't think the £150k flats are the same as the £5m ones, but, yes I take the main point.
 

Bletchleyite

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I doubt there are £4.85M worth of fixtures and fittings...

It doesn't account for the full difference but it will account for some (maybe another £50-100K). What we don't know is if that £150K includes the land price, or is just the build cost. As £100-150K is said to be a fairly typical cost of building a small house excluding land (so there are plenty of places where new-builds aren't necessarily economic), it wouldn't surprise me if it was just the build cost, with no account taken of the cost of the land.
 

najaB

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I was thinking about the number and size of rooms, outlook etc but Neil's point about land values is probably the main factor.
Regardless, the incremental cost of adding a flat to the block is c. £150K and the incremental revenue is c. £4.8M.
 

najaB

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Grenfell Tower: Similar cladding used in around 600 high rises
Around 600 high rises across England are using similar cladding to Grenfell Tower, says Downing Street.
Tower blocks across the UK are being examined after the London blaze, which left 79 people dead or missing, presumed dead.
Three samples have been shown to be "combustible" and more results will be made public in the next 48 hours.
A No 10 spokeswoman said it was a "matter of absolute urgency" to tell residents
 

Dai Corner

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Regardless, the incremental cost of adding a flat to the block is c. £150K and the incremental revenue is c. £4.8M.

Indeed. Effectively, the owners of the expensive flats are paying for the land for the whole development including the affordable/social housing.
 

w0033944

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Blimey!

Just checking and rectifying those will be a huge job in itself.



I wonder if this will be a test of the committment of government, both national and local, to address the problem or whether we'll see more deckchair rearrangement?
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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That question hasn't been answered - though even illegal subletters would have been made homeless so one assumes the council have a duty to rehome them.

Does anyone actually know what the legal situation is with regards to anyone who resides in an illegally sub-let tenanted council/housing associayion property? None of what those people pay goes towards the council/housing association coffers.

I only ask this from a purely legalistic point, before anyone "jumps on the bandwagon" and accuses me of expressing personal feelings in the matter.
 
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Tetchytyke

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Does anyone actually know what the legal situation is with regards to anyone who resides in an illegally sub-let tenanted council/housing property?

The legal situation is that there is a valid tenancy between the tenant (acting as landlord) and subtenant (acting as their tenant). This is regardless of whether the subtenancy is approved by the overall landlord or not.

The overall landlord has to take legal action to evict the tenant, and once that tenant has been evicted then the sub-tenant is legally a trespasser. They can then be evicted by the overall landlord. The overall landlord can allow the subtenant to remain in the property, and occasionally has no choice in the matter. But they can't just turn up and boot the subtenant out, unless they've already taken steps to end their agreement with their tenant.

The illegal act by the tenant is a matter for them and their landlord. And it is only criminally unlawful to sublet a council or housing association property. Not every flat in Grenfell Tower was council or housing association owned.
 
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Dai Corner

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The legal situation is that there is a valid tenancy between the tenant (acting as landlord) and subtenant (acting as their tenant). This is regardless of whether the subtenancy is approved by the overall landlord or not.

The overall landlord has to take legal action to evict the tenant, and once that tenant has been evicted then the sub-tenant is legally a trespasser. They can then be evicted by the overall landlord. The overall landlord can allow the subtenant to remain in the property, and occasionally has no choice in the matter. But they can't just turn up and boot the subtenant out, unless they've already taken steps to end their agreement with their tenant.

The illegal act by the tenant is a matter for them and their landlord. And it is only criminally unlawful to sublet a council or housing association property. Not every flat in Grenfell Tower was council or housing association owned.

So in practice, a subtenant living in an illegally sublet flat in the Tower would have no rights and would have to rely on the tenant known to the landlord to let him rent the new flat he was allocated?
 

w0033944

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It seems that Camden are taking legal action due to discovering that similar, polyethylene core cladding was used on one of their housing estates against the agreed spec.:
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-40366646

Another of the blocks found to have combustible cladding is on Camden Council's Chalcots estate, in north London.
The panels, found to have been made up of aluminium with a polyethylene core, are now being removed, the council said.
Its leader Georgia Gould said the panels were "not to the standard" that the council had commissioned, and it would be informing the contractor behind the work that they would be taking legal advice.
 
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Dai Corner

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It seems that Camden are taking legal action due to discovering that similar, polyethylene core cladding was used on one of their housing estates against the agreed spec.:
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-40366646

Apparently the same contractors undertook Camden's work and Greenfell Tower and Camden are removing the cladding as soon as they can.

https://www.architectsjournal.co.uk...ng-from-htas-chalcots-estate/10021007.article

Camden Council has said it will ‘immediately begin preparing’ to remove external cladding from five HTA-refurbished tower blocks on Chalcots Estate, north London

The council said that, while the arrangement of the aluminium composite cladding panels on the tower blocks differed ‘significantly’ from that on Grenfell Tower, it did not satisfy the ‘independent laboratory testing or the high standards we set for contractors’.

It said that results from the BRE laboratory showed the aluminium panels used on the scheme had a polyethylene core and were ’not to the standard that we had commissioned’. The council said it would be informing the contractor that it was taking ‘urgent legal advice’.

According to a report in The Guardian, aluminium panels with a polyethylene core were installed at Grenfell Tower. A number of fire safety experts believe the combustible polyethylene core was a factor behind the fire spreading so quickly at the tower.

Camden Council leader Georgia Gould said: ‘Camden Council has decided it will immediately begin preparing to remove these external cladding panels from the five tower blocks on the Chalcots Estate.

’Camden Council will do whatever it takes to ensure our residents are reassured about the safety of their homes.’

She said that, until all the panels have been removed, the council would be carrying out ‘24/7’ fire-safety patrols in order to reassure residents.

HTA completed its £150 million refurbishment of the 1960s blocks in 2010. As with Grenfell Tower’s refurbishment, Rydon was the contractor for the project, with Harley Facades providing the cladding.

Last week, HTA managing partner Simon Bayliss told the AJ that the practice has set up a ‘technical group’ to internally review all of its buildings, including the cladding, in response to the Grenfell Tower fire.

Gould stressed that Chalcot Estate’s ‘cladding design and insulation significantly differs to that at Grenfell Tower’.

She said: ‘It includes fire-resistant rockwool insulation, designed to prevent the spread of fire, and fire-resistant sealant between floors, designed to stop a high-intensity flat fire from spreading to neighbouring flats.’

Gould added that this arrangment had previously contained a fire in the Taplow block on the estate in 2012.

Camden Council’s announcement comes after Downing Street released a statement this morning, in which it said that English councils estimate that 600 high-rise buildings could have ‘similar cladding’ to that on Grenfell Tower.

As well as the local authority’s estimates, the statement, as reported by the Press Association, added that the government’s own tests had separately found combustible cladding on at least three tower blocks in the UK so far.

Earlier this morning, Theresa May made a statement to the House of Commons on the Grenfell Tower fire, in which she revealed that tests show a ‘number’ of tower blocks across the UK have combustible cladding, as on Grenfell Tower. Downing Street later said it estimated that 600 high-rise blocks had used the cladding.
 
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w0033944

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Apparently the same contractors undertook Camden's work and Greenfell Tower and Camden are removing the cladding as soon as they can.

I know we must not prejudice the Inquiry findings, but that seems pretty suggestive to me of what went wrong in Kensington.
 

IanXC

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That question hasn't been answered - though even illegal subletters would have been made homeless so one assumes the council have a duty to rehome them.

I am not sure if the government has declared an amnesty on Grenfell residents who are in the country illegally, either.

I can't remember where I read it now, but I'm sure I read earlier that immigration status 'would not be considered' as part of any of the releif efforts. Not an amnesty as such, but whatever is uncovered in the releif process it seems will not be used against anyone in the country illegally, and won't be passed to the Immigration Service.
 

Dai Corner

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I can't remember where I read it now, but I'm sure I read earlier that immigration status 'would not be considered' as part of any of the releif efforts. Not an amnesty as such, but whatever is uncovered in the releif process it seems will not be used against anyone in the country illegally, and won't be passed to the Immigration Service.

From the Prime Minister's statement to the Commons today

https://www.gov.uk/government/speeches/pm-commons-statement-on-grenfell-tower-22-june-2017

And I would also like to reassure people that we will not use this tragic incident as a reason to carry out immigration checks on those involved or on those providing vital information to identify victims or those assisting with the criminal investigation.

We will make sure that all victims, irrespective of their immigration status, will be able to access the services they need, including healthcare and accommodation.
 

BestWestern

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Thanks.

Not an amensty, but it would be a very courageous government decision to try to take any immigration action in these circumstances for a good few years at least I'd say.

Years? :o I have to say, I don't see why somebody sadly being caught up in a fire (and surviving it, unlike many others), should override the fact that they were in the country illegally. I mean, the law is still the law surely?
 

IanXC

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Years? :o I have to say, I don't see why somebody sadly being caught up in a fire (and surviving it, unlike many others), should override the fact that they were in the country illegally. I mean, the law is still the law surely?

But after how long has elapsed will the government want to risk said story being front page news? "Shame of deported Grenfell Tower Victim" for instance.
 
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