Euston to Glasgow Central - 4h08m

[A60K]

As it says on the tin - the ten years of work on the West Coast are finally seeming worthwhile!

1630 from Euston arrived two minutes early at Central this evening, at 2038 - first time I've seen that since the service was accelerated a few weeks ago.

 

[northernbored]

wow if only it didn't cause all the problems in construction!

 

[Danielo]

Very impressive. I wonder what the journey time would be if the Pendolinos were allowed to hit top speed?

 

[me123]

Such journey times being routine is a great benefit to Glasgow. Finally, the train can compete with airlines on this lengthy route. And, to me, the hourly service to the city is a key component of Virgin's new timetable.

Hopefully the service will be well used. It's comfortable, fast and convenient.

 

[Pumbaa]

And, to me, the hourly service to the city is a key component of Virgin's new timetable.

Hopefully the service will be well used. It's comfortable, fast and convenient.

It's still not hourly though. The service would be improved better by stopping only Euston - Preston - Lancaster/Oxenholme alternating - Carlisle. Wigan, Warrington and Penrith can be mopped up with the hourly Brum services, and maybe odd peak services.

Virgin don't seem to take route E seriously though. Frequency hasn't improved drastically since 2006, stops have been cut such as Stafford and Crewe, and prices have recently sky-rocketed.

 

[me123]

It's hourly at weekends, and I don't think they're far off implementing an hourly timetable. It is a dramatic improvement in my opinion, because it's quite a lot of additional trains and seats and, as I say, if they find stock for an hourly service in the week, all the better!

I think to deprive these intermediate stations of a service is a bit silly; Birmingham services do good for Glasgow-Wigan, but it's a huge decrease in service for Wigan-Warrington passengers.

I think you would drastically improve the VHF timetable with two simple alterations;

• Stop Liverpool services at Nuneaton. They go fast to Stafford, and I'm sure this stop would improve Virgin's revenue and be well used by locals.
• Stop Glasgow-Euston services at Crewe, even if only on a set-down only basis. I like fast trains, and I don't think that stopping this service all stations to Euston is a good idea. But Crewe provides good connections for intermediate stations on the WCML and several other services in the North.

I'm not naive enough to think that this solves all problems, but I think these are two of the biggest criticisms the public have about the timetable, and they are very easily sorted. (Provided, of course, that it can slot into the timetable!)

 

[The_Rail_WAy]

Really impressive journey time that, I remember Virgin attempting a record run from Glasgow to London back on 2006 and did the journey in just less than 4 hours and that was non-stop!

'The service would be improved better by stopping only Euston - Preston - Lancaster/Oxenholme alternating - Carlisle. Wigan, Warrington and Penrith can be mopped up with the hourly Brum services, and maybe odd peak services.'

I think a couple of stops in the south (Watford or MK?) and midlands (Crewe?) is necessary to be honest. Don't think any stops need ommiting, there are large distances between stops, particuarly up north as it is.

 

[Pumbaa]

Stop Liverpool services at Nuneaton. They go fast to Stafford, and I'm sure this stop would improve Virgin's revenue and be well used by locals.

Bad idea. Liverpool services are crap enough as it is. Removing stops like Nuneaton have just made the service better. The frequency and journey times still leave a lot to be desired. Stopping Stafford - Crewe - Runcorn is the best stopping pattern in my opinion.

I think to deprive these intermediate stations of a service is a bit silly; Birmingham services do good for Glasgow-Wigan, but it's a huge decrease in service for Wigan-Warrington passengers.

It gets wedged as it is between Lancaster and Warrington with commuters - it's an IC service, not a local all shacks!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I think a couple of stops in the south (Watford or MK?)

Maybe in the peaks. But bugger us to be honest - with a long enough journey time as it is, a couple of minutes cut can make a huge difference!

there are large distances between stops, particuarly up north as it is.

15 mins tween Preston and Lancaster? 20 between Wigan and Warrington? Wouldn't call that large personally.

 

[The_Rail_WAy]

'15 mins tween Preston and Lancaster? 20 between Wigan and Warrington? Wouldn't call that large personally.'

No I meant further north than that,

Lancaster - Penrith: 40 mins (unless stopping at Oxenholme)

Oxenholme - Penrith: 25 mins

Carlise - Glasgow: Over an hour (unless stopping at Lockerbie or Motherwell)

 

[me123]

Bad idea. Liverpool services are crap enough as it is. Removing stops like Nuneaton have just made the service better. The frequency and journey times still leave a lot to be desired. Stopping Stafford - Crewe - Runcorn is the best stopping pattern in my opinion.

I don't really see how it's that bad. It only adds a few minutes, if that, and peak time trains (which I'd imagine are busiest) stop there anyway!

It gets wedged as it is between Lancaster and Warrington with commuters - it's an IC service, not a local all shacks!

I've never seen it "wedged". Glagsow-London passengers don't take up all that much room and on a 9 carriage train I'm sure there's room for some commuters. Besides, you can't deny these places a service to London if Oxenholme's getting one, just because people use it to commute.

I do agree with you when you say that Glasgow trains need not call at MK or WJ. I know they can be useful, but most people just want to get to London. Perhaps a stop at MK every other hour set down only would be helpful, but not necessary. A stop at Crewe would allow people who desperately want this to change onto another train.

 

[Pumbaa]

I've never seen it "wedged". Glagsow-London passengers don't take up all that much room and on a 9 carriage train I'm sure there's room for some commuters.

The 16xx and 17xx up services are standing room only between Carlisle and Warrington most of the time, even worse now local services have been thrown into stupid timeslots by the new timetable. During the day the Glasgow services aren't too bad. the 0930 only going as far as Lancaster is ridiculous in my opinion, first off-peak Scotland departure, and it's usually busier than the 0830.

Perhaps a stop at MK every other hour set down only would be helpful,

Watford has always been busier for the Scottish services, Milton Keynes more so for Manchester, although most people down here are pretty ****ed at being removed from the Manchester timetable.

I said Oxenholme because it works a treat for Virgin PR. Middle of the lake district, and acts as a "gateway". I've heard its the object of a new PR roll from May as part of a network-wide initiative to highlight their links to national parks. Plus, it's always far better used than both Penrith and Wigan (during day only).

 

[The_Rail_WAy]

'The 16xx and 17xx up services are standing room only between Carlisle and Warrington most of the time, even worse now local services have been thrown into stupid timeslots by the new timetable. During the day the Glasgow services aren't too bad. the 0930 only going as far as Lancaster is ridiculous in my opinion, first off-peak Scotland departure, and it's usually busier than the 0830.'

Very true, Mon-Fri rush hour services between Carlisle and Warrington are extremely busy, and the voyagers are ridiculous. Saturday and Sunday services can be a pain as well, apart from early morning and eve/night services.

'I said Oxenholme because it works a treat for Virgin PR. Middle of the lake district, and acts as a "gateway". I've heard its the object of a new PR roll from May as part of a network-wide initiative to highlight their links to national parks. Plus, it's always far better used than both Penrith and Wigan (during day only).'

Despite being the most sparsley populated town on the WCML it is a little goldmine for Virgin - the village is only known because it has a mainline station. As you say in terms of PR it works a treat for Virgin and Northern Rail, TPE etc hence its name 'Oxenholme (the) Lake District.' It's links to Kendal, Windermere and Penrith which has links to Keswicjk and the northern Lake District makes it a worthwhile destination.

 

[ukrob]

I think you would drastically improve the VHF timetable with two simple alterations;

• Stop Liverpool services at Nuneaton. They go fast to Stafford, and I'm sure this stop would improve Virgin's revenue and be well used by locals.

• 
  
  It has just been improved by removing that stop (amongst others). Why should Liverpool (hourly) services suffer? Let one of the *three per hour* Manc services stop there.

 

[me123]

My theory was that it's not a long distance to Liverpool, and the service runs with very few stops. In fact, Nuneaton stops are (IIRC) added to the timetable at peak times anyway!

Could easily be added to Manchester, but I thought that Liverpool services, stopping less, would have more seats for passengers. It's not as if you're losing much journey time either.

It's not a random attack at Liverpool, it just seems logical to me. Although Manchester stoppers, if there was space on the trains (which I'd imagine there is) would work equally well.

 

[Pumbaa]

My theory was that it's not a long distance to Liverpool, and the service runs with very few stops. In fact, Nuneaton stops are (IIRC) added to the timetable at peak times anyway!

It's shorter to Manchester by 10 miles. It's only just good! The reason the Liv service has had so many station cuts was because it was ridiculous before! Previously stopped Euston - MK - Nuneaton - Stafford - Crewe - Runcorn - Liv. Now goes fast to Stafford. That's a great improvement, and the increase in pax is showing that.

 

[will1337]

Previously stopped Euston - MK - Nuneaton - Stafford - Crewe - Runcorn - Liv.

I hope that it still stops at Euston otherwise that could be quite dangerous!

 

[me123]

I'm looking at timetables just now. Virgin allow five minutes for Nuneaton stops on L Liverpool services but ten minutes for the Manchester services (I think that seems a bit much, and probably includes a lot of slack time though!).

It just seems the most logical solution to me. But putting them into Manchester runs wouldn't make much difference. (Probably the xx35 SB and xx00 NB), as some peak times call on the SB run (non NB for some reason?).

What would need to be done is to put most NB and SB services on either Liverpool or Manchester run, to allow connections northbound as well.

 

[devon_metro]

I'm looking at timetables just now. Virgin allow five minutes for Nuneaton stops on L Liverpool services but ten minutes for the Manchester services (I think that seems a bit much, and probably includes a lot of slack time though!).

It just seems the most logical solution to me. But putting them into Manchester runs wouldn't make much difference. (Probably the xx35 SB and xx00 NB), as some peak times call on the SB run (non NB for some reason?).

What would need to be done is to put most NB and SB services on either Liverpool or Manchester run, to allow connections northbound as well.

How busy is the hourly Chester service formed of either 10/5 vomit?

Surely a stop at Nuneaton wouldn't go amiss as I can't imagine they are that busy.

 

[The Planner]

A station stop on a 125 section would normally cost you 4 minutes, 1 for braking, 2 dwell, 1 for acceleration. It will also depend on what platform they go in (id guess 3 or 4), but if it was 2 or 5 then that would cost you more due to approach control coming off the fasts.

 

[route:oxford]

I think a couple of stops in the south (Watford or MK?) and midlands (Crewe?) is necessary to be honest. Don't think any stops need ommiting, there are large distances between stops, particuarly up north as it is.

When the East:West rail link reopens it would be fantastic to be able to connect at Bletchley (or MK) for trips to Scotland.

Oxford-MK 35-45 Minutes
MK-Glasgow/Edinburgh 3h40m

Even from Reading...

Reading to MK 1h-1h10 Minutes
Then as before.

Why would anyone bother to trail into London/Birmingham to travel to the NW or Scotland if they could go via MK instead?


Happened to look at the timetables today looking for a fast train to London from Edinburgh or Glasgow after 5pm. There isn't one.

Shame really. A 4hr20m (East) or 4h08m (West) Getting into London for 10pm Would be really quite convenient.

 

[tbtc]

Of course, once the London - Nuneaton - Shrewsbury service starts, there'll be less need for other services to stop at Nuneaton (albiet twice a day)...

 

[jagardner1984]

Surely all this thread does is to point out what is needed on this arterial route, is both classes of inter-city services, the fast fasts and the semi fasts. Obviously the Glasgow London traveller is going to want the Crewe/Preston only services, but as the poster mentions above, I'm a Glasgow traveller, and whilst I frequently do the London run, there are other journeys that are useful to me - so a 125mph service that does stop more than twice is helpful, even if Virgin seem to believe otherwise. Looking at my travel tickets, I notice how many times I go via Watford Junction, to avoid going into London to travel to the Herts/North London area - which I suppose is the argument for East-West link. Surely better services from the big east and west coast towns to the likes of Watford, Stevenage and Luton/Bedford on the Midland, will help manage demand on the commuter services from people like me who are frequently forced to travel to London to then travel to St Albans for example. I would be interested in what the passenger flows are like from Manchester, Leeds, York, Birmingham, Glasgow, Edinburgh etc to North London and the Home Counties. I suspect they are surprisingly high.

 

[paul1609]

My experience of the new timetable so far has been mostly at weekends but none of the impressively timed services have actually made it to my destination on time generally as a result of signal stops and crawling through the Rugby and Stafford Areas. The best Ive had was 10 late arrival at Preston for Ascots "salford Sleeper meet". Ive had 3 arrivals in to London all 15-20 mins late.
The current Glasgow service is still too slow to attract my business travel from air fast to Wigan and then a semi fast service to Carlisle is just not good enough, I would expect one out of Wigan, Warrington Preston and Lancaster not all four.

 

[mathmo]

The current Glasgow service is still too slow to attract my business travel from air fast to Wigan and then a semi fast service to Carlisle is just not good enough, I would expect one out of Wigan, Warrington Preston and Lancaster not all four.

Totally agree. The last couple of times I went north from Warrington, the seemingly endless stopping and starting is really annoying, and must slow the journey down quite a lot. I'd take alternate Warrington/Wigan, Preston/Lancaster stops - but are there any "local" trains on this section to pick up everyone else? I've never noticed one south of Preston - perhaps that's the problem.

 

[Failed Unit]

When you look at the timetable for the Glasgow services, the problem is giving all the towns a reasonable link to London. Warrington, Wigan and Lancaster have the demand for hourly in thier own right. Oxenholme and Penrith 2 hourly to London is probably right, but that means 1 extra stop each hour. Virgin don't have enough trains to run a London - Lancaster / Carlisle semi fast, I doubt demand exists either for it. Saying that for many years on the East Coast Newcastle has had demand for 2 trains per hour, could Carlisle give enough passengers for a simular service?

As for local passengers, Crewe - Preston also has the Voyager service but that is overcrowded enough as it is.
Preston - Lancaster - Oxenholme - Carlisle has TPE and the Voyager.

Skip stopping is possible but without a extra services to cover the missed out stops London, Preston, Carlisle, Glasgow services will not operate very often.

 

[stut]

I would be interested in what the passenger flows are like from Manchester, Leeds, York, Birmingham, Glasgow, Edinburgh etc to North London and the Home Counties. I suspect they are surprisingly high.

This is a personal bugbear of mine, too, living just North of the Northern Home Counties! First Watford Junction and Milton Keynes lost their stop-offs, then Bedford, and I have fears for Peterborough. The focus is all on London. Yes, it's the capital, but it's not the only destination in the country.

However, if you want an answer, you usually have to follow the money. London may not have as vast a majority of passenger as you'd assume, but I'm willing to bet it has a far higher proportion of passengers on Anytime, particularly Anytime First, tickets.

It seems a silly way to lose customers. Personally, I'll always take the train if I can - I'll go out of my way to do so. If, though, they removed all services North or York or Newcastle from stopping at Peterborough... No thanks. I'll fly, or drive.

 

[Waverley125]

i thought virgin had cessated all nuneaton services? Just I'm goin there tomorrow and It'd be useful to be able to go up to Crewe without changing.

 

[paul1609]

It seems a silly way to lose customers. Personally, I'll always take the train if I can - I'll go out of my way to do so. If, though, they removed all services North or York or Newcastle from stopping at Peterborough... No thanks. I'll fly, or drive.

Unfortunately these extra stops lose rail the market from South of the Thames a far larger market than that provided bymany of these small provincial towns. If I am to use rail from london to Scotland I need a service that has a maximum of 2 or possibly 3 stops but what is on offer is really only an express service to Yorkshire then a stopping service to Newcastle and Edinburgh.

As it is I can have taken off from Gatwick or Southampton in the time that it takes me to get to Kings Cross.

 

[43106]

I'm going ever so slightly off-topic, but a bugbear of mine on the WCML has been the appalling service between Edinburgh and Preston (and beyond to Manchester/Birmingham). In the days of yore, 7 or 8 trains per day left Edinburgh for Preston+ BEFORE 1.00p.m. After that, there were 3 more trains in the rest of the day - and that was your lot! Things have improved in the last 7 years or so, but they could be better. If I had my way...

Euston - Milton K - Crewe - Wigan - Warrington - Preston - Lancaster - Oxenholme (2/3 of trains) - Penrith (1/3 of trains) - Carlisle - Motherwell - Glasgow, at 1 tph
Euston - Rugby - Crewe - Warrington - Wigan - Preston - BLACKPOOL at 1 train every 6 hours (=1/6tph)
Euston - Milton K - Stoke - Macclesfield - Stockport - Manchester at 1tph
Euston - Tamworth - Crewe - Wilmslow - Stockport - Manchester at 1/2tph
Euston - Nuneaton - Stoke - Macclesfield - Stockport - Manchester at 1/2tph
Euston - Rugby - Crewe - Runcorn - Liverpool at 1tph + 1/6tph
Euston - Watford J - Lichfield - Crewe - Chester - (North Wales Towns) - Holyhead at 1/2tph
Euston - Watford J - Coventry - Birm'ham Int'l - B'ham New St - S'well & D'ley - Wolv'h'ton at 1tph
Euston - Milton K - Coventry - Birm'ham Int'l - B'ham New St at 1tph with half of these extended to S'well & D'ley and Wolv'h'ton.

In the last year or so, Watford has lost more than half the VWC trains, as have Nuneaton - I'd put them back. A new LMR Euston - Crewe stopper has been recently inaugurated, which helps, but it could be extended to stop at Hartford, Warrington, Earlestown, Newton-le-Willows, Wigan and Preston.

On the XC side of things...
Edinburgh - Haymarket - Carlisle - Penrith - Oxenholme - Lancaster - Preston - Wigan - Warrington - Crewe - Wolv'h'ton - Birm'ham New St. at 1 tph. Half of these trains would stop at Lockerbie, the other half at Stafford.
I'd kick the TPE Edinburgh/Glasgow - Preston - Manchester service off the rails entirely and replace it with a Glasgow - Manchester service at 1/2tph and 'glue' it onto a Manchester - Birmingham - Beyond service. A 3-car DMU service between Scotland and Carlisle is an embarrassing joke.
I'd also like to see XC re-introduced to Liverpool. It's criminal that this city and its adjoining environs has only a 1tph service to London and nowt else.

 

[tbtc]

Virgin don't have enough trains to run a London - Lancaster / Carlisle semi fast, I doubt demand exists either for it. Saying that for many years on the East Coast Newcastle has had demand for 2 trains per hour, could Carlisle give enough passengers for a simular service?

I reckon Preston could have two trains per hour for London (if there were enough units/ paths etc), bearing in mind that it's "Preston, change here for Blackpool, Blackburn, Burnley etc etc".

Preston to Carlisle has up to five trains every two hours (one from Manchester, two from Birmingham and one or two from Euston), which is probably the best service it's ever had - meaning plenty opportunities to change to/from a Euston - Preston service.

Plus, an hourly (additional) Euston - Preston service would mop up places like Warrington/ Wigan, meaning the Glasgow service could speed itself up.

Oh, and (whilst we're on the subject), what's the point in the one Euston - Edinburgh service a day? And why can't all these Carlisle - Glasgow/ Edinburgh services stop at Carstairs?