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New South Western franchise: Awarded to First/MTR

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pompeyfan

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The publicly available SWT staff Q&A is updated each week, there's some interesting questions on there. It's a long read but well worth it. There no details about any of the Weymouth services.

The publicly available SWT staff Q&A is updated each week, there's some interesting questions on there. It's a long read but well worth it.

First Group MTR have indicated that they will introduce a second semi-fast service between Portsmouth and Southampton Central. What does this mean, and which communities will this serve?
We propose to mainly run this service between Southampton Central, Swanwick, Fareham, Portchester, Cosham, Fratton, Portsmouth Southsea and Portsmouth Harbour. All changes we propose are subject to a full public consultation.

There no details about any of the Weymouth services as yet.

http://firstmtrswstaff.com/index.php/faq/
 
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infobleep

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If First consider the leasing costs to be too high, how come SWT were happy with them, especially as it was bid franchise that they ordered the trains?
 

Feathers44

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If First consider the leasing costs to be too high, how come SWT were happy with them, especially as it was bid franchise that they ordered the trains?

My guess is that times and economics have changed since the order was placed. What was acceptable to SWT at that time may not be so acceptable when looked at from todays position. Backing away from the agreement already made, however, is harder when you are one of the parties to the agreement.
 

DelW

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.... Angel I'm sure can be persuaded to bring the leasing costs down as it will be more cost effective for them to be on lease than off, so the 707s aren't completely off the cards (yet).

One would have to assume that Angel will have been busy researching which TOCs might be interested in the 707s, and what leasing fees they might achieve. If the answers aren't to their liking, they might be able to offer FMTR a much better deal than the original price to Stagecoach. Although FMTR may have other preferences, if the price is right ...?
 

F Great Eastern

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You might be in for surprise then...

First want CAF apparently but it's a question if they can do it in the timescale required, otherwise they will most likely go to Bombardier which is some stakeholders preferred option.
 

freetoview33

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The publicly available SWT staff Q&A is updated each week, there's some interesting questions on there. It's a long read but well worth it. There no details about any of the Weymouth services.

The publicly available SWT staff Q&A is updated each week, there's some interesting questions on there. It's a long read but well worth it.

There no details about any of the Weymouth services as yet.

http://firstmtrswstaff.com/index.php/faq/
Wondering if GWR services from Bristol to Portsmouth might be cut back to Southampton. And allow SW to take it over with more cost effective electric trains.
 

HH

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If First consider the leasing costs to be too high, how come SWT were happy with them, especially as it was bid franchise that they ordered the trains?

You're asking the wrong question. The 707s were part of a Direct Award, i.e. there was no competition and the DfT were effectively paying for them - which is fair as the DfT specified what they wanted too.

They just changed their mind since.
 

HH

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Does this have any basis or is it platform end rumours?

CAF were not in the running when the bid was submitted, but as long as they can produce a train to the right spec, at the right price, and to the required timescales, then anything's possible.

Of course, there's a ready excuse if their name remains officially unmentioned, "they couldn't do it within the timescale".
 

speedy_sticks

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I'm guessing the real delay to the CAF deal is Alstom, I'm guessing they would maintain the fleet, would they need a new depot or just use the Class 455 depot?
 

swt_passenger

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Wondering if GWR services from Bristol to Portsmouth might be cut back to Southampton. And allow SW to take it over with more cost effective electric trains.

No they won't. There is no scope to do this with the way the separate franchises are specified by DfT. What would happen when the GW franchise next gets let to a different owning group. Do you switch it all back?
 

Goldfish62

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Exactly - Desiro City reliability has not been good so far (very poor MTIN) along with technical and spec issues and higher cost than competitors. Aventra for Crossrail was about 7% per 20m car equivalent cheaper than Desiro City for Thameslink. As this is a normal ROSCO franchise deal (not manufacturer arranged finance etc.) Siemens financial fire power matters less on this deal with more weighting on manufacturing & maintenance costs.

300 job cuts recently announced in Krefeld might suggest what didn't happen.

Indeed, as Roger Ford pointed out in MR, Desiro UK reliability was about where the City variant is at this stage of introduction. And now look at them.
 

Goldfish62

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"Rail" reports that Porterbrook are investigating dieseling (I know, that's not a proper word) to offer for the short term chronic diesel unit shortage, and that they will be offering the 458s to bidders for the South Eastern franchise.
 

Suraggu

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"Rail" reports that Porterbrook are investigating dieseling (I know, that's not a proper word) to offer for the short term chronic diesel unit shortage, and that they will be offering the 458s to bidders for the South Eastern franchise.

Porterbrook have confirmed they are looking at a feasibility study into creating a fleet of '455 Flex'.
 

urpert

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"Rail" reports that Porterbrook are investigating dieseling (I know, that's not a proper word) to offer for the short term chronic diesel unit shortage, and that they will be offering the 458s to bidders for the South Eastern franchise.

That's funny, I was idly speculating yesterday whether you could get away with SDO-equipped 10 car trains on the Vic/Blackfriars routes that are currently limited to 8 car Networkers. 458s would certainly feel like an upgrade!
 

AlexNL

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The only nagging thought I have: the rumoured December 2020 date for all new stock delivery would be very difficult for Derby, by April 2021 would be do-able though.

Bombardier has other factories, which might be able to provide support in manufacturing Aventras?
 

hwl

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Bombardier has other factories, which might be able to provide support in manufacturing Aventras?

Aventra (like the electrostar before it) has a different bodyshell construction to that used at other Bombardier factories for their other products apart from factories designed to assemble kits from Derby (e.g. Gautrain assembly in South Africa from a parts kit build in Derby). Hence difficult for other factories to help with final assembly - it would also increase delivery costs making it harder for Bombardier to make a profit.

Other Bombarider factories already supply parts e.g. bogie frames made and fitted out at Siegen, traction equipment at Vasteras.

The easiest way to meet the new trains promise is to retain the new 707s longer than the other units to give the breathing space for new Aventra to replace new trains (707) rather than old trains in 2021!

The max Aventra production rate is meant to be around 11 cars per week (probably not reached yet) whether that includes retasking all or some of the other production lines is unknown. E.g. Electrostar will be winding down later this year after the GWR order is finished so given the similarities this will probably happen and with no realistic LU orders retask the Movia production lines? There is also the possibility to ramp up production rates by hiring more staff for evening /night and weekend shifts as they have done in the past.

Aventra orders:
CR 66x 9car = 594 cars. delivery by end 2018 (average 5 cars per week in 2017 and 2018)
LO 45x 4car = 180 cars. first unit complete, first unit in service before May 2018.
Anglia 89x 5car and 22x 10car = 665 cars production September 2018 to Mar 2020 (Average 8 cars /week but some overlap with earlier orders in 2018).
 

fgwrich

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Something more than likely unrelated to the franchise change but worth asking anyway. On the recent SWT station repaints, can anyone explain why the doors appear to have gone from SWT red to a sort of First Group Purple? Basingstoke has an odd one out - all the doors have recently seen another coat of Red, while one on platform 1 has also gone Purple.
 

Pumbaa

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That colour scheme has been around since 2014 - all refreshes since then have been using that palette.

No reason - it was just felt to be nicer than rainbow colours everywhere!
 

Jamie2804

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My dad works for the company who fits the liveries onto trains around the UK, and First/MTR are proposing an all blue design from August so that when the company is handed over to them they have the liveries already in place. Changes after this are likely but not certain.
 

Suraggu

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My dad works for the company who fits the liveries onto trains around the UK, and First/MTR are proposing an all blue design from August so that when the company is handed over to them they have the liveries already in place. Changes after this are likely but not certain.

Il wait until it's released by the incoming TOC.
 

TT-ONR-NRN

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First/MTR are proposing an all blue design from August so that when the company is handed over to them they have the liveries already in place. Changes after this are likely but not certain.

Does this mean the trains will be repainted before the new franchise starts?

Oh - and I spoke to a driver for SWT who said the LSWR logo and maroon colour scheme was legit and their bosses had shown them it - it's going to be basically a maroon version of GWR but called L&SWR. He said nothing about blue...
 

Suraggu

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Does this mean the trains will be repainted before the new franchise starts?

Oh - and I spoke to a driver for SWT who said the LSWR logo and maroon colour scheme was legit and their bosses had shown them it - it's going to be basically a maroon version of GWR but called L&SWR. He said nothing about blue...

That Driver is pulling your leg.
First/MTR have confirmed that logo created by a user on this forum is a fake and is not part of their brand.

If any train is to be rebranded its likely to be only one or two and would take place around a week before the franchise starts and likely to be kept away from prying eyes.
 

swt_passenger

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Does this mean the trains will be repainted before the new franchise starts?

If they started tonight they wouldn't finish by mid August. Repainting a fleet this size will take years. And all the units going off lease, the 455s, 458s and 707s? They will probably never be repainted (or reliveried by other means such as vinyling).

Expect the usual - one or two trains will be done for PR purposes, and that'll be it.
 

TEW

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The 455s and 458s have only recently been repainted anyway. I'd be very surprised if they were painted again given they are going off lease in a few years. Removal of the SWT branding and replacement with the new branding will surely be the limit?
 

class387

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It will probably be just a 444 re-vinyled for the press launch and then nothing until the promised refurbishments start.

Might they even use a hired(?) 442 for the launch?
 
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