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Carmarthen to Aberystwyth Reopening?

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Llanigraham

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A spokesman for the combined South Wales Chambers of Commerce was on the News last week supporting it, but you seem to be ignoring that and other support for the diversion.
Your bias is showing again.
 
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Rhydgaled

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I wonder if (as long as the connections were good) it would be faster to travel to Aberystwyth via Carmarthen from not only stations in West and South Wales, but also stations in SW England from Bristol Temple Meads and beyond. Having studied in Aberystwyth, I know people personally who used the bus from Aber to Carmarthen, with onward rail towards Bristol, Wiltshire and Somerset. I never did as I was put off by the hassle of trying to store luggage on a bus.
Actually it will only be S Wales that is closer time wise to Aberystwyth.

The Trawslink Campaigners want a 90 minute journey time between Aberystwyth and Carmarthen at the moment Carmarthen to Cardiff is typically 1 hr 50 minutes. The journey time via Shrewsbury from Cardiff is 4 hours.

Once you get to Newport its even Stevens both ways.
Yes, but their website used to say they also wanted Cardiff-Carmarthen to come down to 90 minutes (with only two stops, it could already be done in 85, perhaps even 83, by my reckoning). That would bring Aberystwyth-Cardiff down to 3 hours or less. I think it's a real shame that TrawsLinkCymru's campaigning has focused on Carmarthen-Aberystwyth first, rather than starting on the Carmarthen-Cardiff journey time first which would be the cheapest part of their original proposal to implement and would benifit more pepole and strengthen the case for Carmarthen-Aberystwyth as a later phase.

Isn't transport devolved?
Roads and buses are, I think, but rail infrustructure spending is not (although WAG are allowed to spend on rail, it is officially still the UK government's responsibility and no provision for rail infrustructre is included in the WAG's block grant I believe). Responsiblity for letting the W&B rail franchise is currently in the process of being devolved, but this does not include control of Network Rail (the High Level Output Specification (HLOS) for England and Wales will still be the UK government's responsibility).

Whatever you view on the AYW to CMN reopening it wont have the negative impact on the environment, health and road congestion that the M4 Relief Road will nor the same opportunity cost.

However in my opinion the South Wales Metro should be the priority transport project per se in Wales as if done properly it will deliver a step change in provision for the million or so people that live in the Cardiff City Region
I agree with this, but don't call it 'the South Wales Metro'. Currently, it is just a Cardiff+Newport metro; extend it to Swansea and it'd be a South East Wales metro but a South Wales metro makes no sense (because that would include rural south-west Wales).

What needs to be done is to get the railways electrified - preferably using modern stock.
Agreed.

The M4 is for killing everybody and everything.
Fixed that for you. We've known about climate change for years yet still we have counter-productive policies like a second M4 around Newport that would increase greenhouse gas emmissions. It is time to put an end to the car culture.

We need to be linking up the neglected west of Wales, with railways
As far as south-west Wales is concerned, the first thing is to get a better service on the lines we have already, with limited track improvements:
  • A loop between Tenby and Whitland to allow trains every half hour between Swansea and Carmarthen (serving Ferryside and Kidwelly hourly), with 0.5tph (trains per hour) extended to each of the three Pembrokeshire branches.
  • Linespeed improvement between Ferryside and Carmarthen to reduce journey times and the spacing between trains (it's absolute block) to allow an hourly Cardiff-Carmarthen express (2 stops, 85mins or less) to run close behind (or just ahead of) the Swansea-Milford/Fishguard service. The express would continue to Milford Haven (calling at Whitland, Haverfordwest and Johnston only) in the hours the Swansea service does Fishguard, providing a roughly hourly Milford Haven service.
  • Put on a bus every two hours from Carmarthen to Aberystwyth, which takes a reasonably direct route (serving either Lampeter or Pencader, not both as the current TrawsCymru bus does) and connects with the Cardiff express and Carmarthen
Sort that lot out before spending money on new track in the south-west of Wales I think; but safeguard a suitable (fast) alignment between Carmarthen and Aberystwyth by all means and the same further north for Porthmadog-Caernarfon (a fast Caernarfon - Bangor rail link should be built now).

Likewise the reopening of the Aber Carmarthen route is a fantasy. A 90 minute journey target I suspect would be impossible and there is not the population or passenger requirement for it.
90 minutes is not fast enough, and if a simple reopening is intended I too doubt you'd get the journey down to 90mins. 90 minutes (or faster) might be possible if the route is straightened out in places, but that would cost big-time.
 

Gareth Marston

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A spokesman for the combined South Wales Chambers of Commerce was on the News last week supporting it, but you seem to be ignoring that and other support for the diversion.
Your bias is showing again.

There's the Sustainable Futures Commissar opposing it as well and as the report says a number of Labour AM's have spoken out against it as well.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-39052153

In fact most of the submissions to the public inquiry on it have been opposing it by a wide range of groups across the political spectrum.

My position has been consistent on the subject since its was first proposed by the Welsh Office in 1991 so trying to claim I oppose it because its a Welsh Labour scheme is nonsense and your argument falls flat on its face.
 

Rhydgaled

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A spokesman for the combined South Wales Chambers of Commerce was on the News last week supporting it, but you seem to be ignoring that and other support for the diversion.
Your bias is showing again.
There is support for the double-bypass* yes, but if you stop ignoring them you must ignore climate change. I consider the latter more dangerous.

* the second M4 around Newport, is a bypass of a bypass
 

Gareth Marston

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There is support for the double-bypass* yes, but if you stop ignoring them you must ignore climate change. I consider the latter more dangerous.

* the second M4 around Newport, is a bypass of a bypass

An example of how a bypass on a bypass doesn't solve everything magically as some believe occurred today. My other half had a meeting inReading scheduled for 1630 today she opted to drive to Shrewsbury and get the train from there as she couldn't guarentee making the last train back. She was heading for the 1233 departure and left home in Newtown at 1110 she only just made it due to congestion from Newtown to Shrewsbury and into the town centre. She got out of Newtown no problem at all. Despite Shrewsbury having two A5 bypasses she still got caught in traffic around the town and averaged less than 30 mph.
 

Bald Rick

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An example of how a bypass on a bypass doesn't solve everything magically as some believe occurred today. My other half had a meeting inReading scheduled for 1630 today she opted to drive to Shrewsbury and get the train from there as she couldn't guarentee making the last train back. She was heading for the 1233 departure and left home in Newtown at 1110 she only just made it due to congestion from Newtown to Shrewsbury and into the town centre. She got out of Newtown no problem at all. Despite Shrewsbury having two A5 bypasses she still got caught in traffic around the town and averaged less than 30 mph.

How would she have got on without the bypass?

Nevertheless, it is an hour's drive in normal traffic, as it is not a good road, no dual carriageway and few opportunities to overtake the numerous wagons. Personally I'd have allowed an hour and a road needs some dual carriageway.
 
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Llanigraham

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I'm trying to work out how there are 2 A5 by-passes to Shrewsbury. As far as I can see there is only one; around the outside.
And I find it easier going to Ludlow to catch trains in a London direction. Cheaper and the parking is easier.
 

PHILIPE

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Old maps show that the B4380 round the south of the town used to be the A5.

That is correct. I lived there for many years and always remember the A5 which was the road to London but ran round Shrewsbury as a by pass rather than entering the town. Imagine the surprise on driving there for the first time many years later, I discovered this new by-pass with no properties alongside further out which had become the A5 and the inner route renumbered B4380, this route having much housing on either side..
 

RSimons

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I've just cycled Aberystwyth-Tregaron and back for a meeting and a train would be very nice indeed
I moved to Aberystwyth about a month after the line closed, and was reliably told that a group of students waved off the last train from Carmarthen, cycled to Aberystwyth and met the train as it came into the platform there.
 

Gareth Marston

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How would she have got on without the bypass?

Nevertheless, it is an hour's drive in normal traffic, as it is not a good road, no dual carriageway and few opportunities to overtake the numerous wagons. Personally I'd have allowed an hour and a road needs some dual carriageway.

She gave herself 83 minutes and she already had car parking ticket for Howard St and Rail tickets.

AA Routeplanner suggests its 53 minutes for 32.8 miles.

Converting existing roads into dual carriageways is coming in at around £50 million a mile using some existing projects as benchmarks, the A458 is cross border so getting it to be a priority is low. The Conservative MP and AM for Montgomeryshire want a bypass around Pant/Llanymynech on the A483 and Trewern on the A458 not surprisingly the West Midlands Highways Agency do not think these are priorities.

You'd probably reinstate Llanymench to Buttington Junction cheaper than any of these schemes.
 

PHILIPE

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And still this thread keeps growing for a non-event. It seemed to die out recently but one post started it all off again.:smile::smile:

EDIT:- Forgot to say unless Plaid ever resurrect it.
 
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Gareth Marston

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And still this thread keeps growing for a non-event. It seemed to die out recently but one post started it all off again.:smile::smile:

EDIT:- Forgot to say unless Plaid ever resurrect it.

Well the reopening is in a mainstream (i.e one who will return MP's) party's manifesto which is a lot further than many other things discussed on Rail Forums have got!
 

Llanigraham

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I moved to Aberystwyth about a month after the line closed, and was reliably told that a group of students waved off the last train from Carmarthen, cycled to Aberystwyth and met the train as it came into the platform there.

That I can believe!
 

Greenback

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All sorts of things are appearing in manifesto's that will never, ever see the light of day!
 

squizzler

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The implication from the article is that people actually bail out of the bus at Carmarthen and proceed to Cardiff by train, hence that duplicate section of the bus route becoming unviable. Traws Cymru was started with the remit of joining key rail stations with the hinterlands beyond so it seems to be working as advertised in this instance.
 

Rhydgaled

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The implication from the article is that people actually bail out of the bus at Carmarthen and proceed to Cardiff by train, hence that duplicate section of the bus route becoming unviable. Traws Cymru was started with the remit of joining key rail stations with the hinterlands beyond so it seems to be working as advertised in this instance.
That's not the impression I got; this bit in particular "Connecting the T1 service and the train is not an option for many, especially the elderly who want a direct route" seems to be saying the opposite, that passengers don't want to be forced to change onto the train at Carmarthen. The service is hardly direct though, whether north or south of Carmarthen (except for the one train per day that doesn't go via Swansea).
 

Bald Rick

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Red Herring as people will give up driving for rail but not for bus. Its no real indicator.

But...

The argument for reopening is often stated as helping those who don't have access to a car. You'd have thought the bus would help similarly. Or, perhaps, there simply isn't a market of sufficient size to justify public transport on this route?

And, generally, people won't give up their car if the journey by rail door to door takes longer. It must be a very small number of people who would use this line who are sufficiently close to the stations either end such that that would be true. Especially given how slow the line would be.
 

ChiefPlanner

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Not that I am biased or anything - but a package which accelerated Carmarthen to Cardiff trains by using the largely underused Swansea District line (at least 2 hourly) , and saving the slowish journey into Swansea High Street and the reverse ,direct to Port Talbot with calls only at Bridgend and maybe extended to Bristol would give an excellent option for the M4 corridor ( yes - I know the M4 ends at Pont Abraham, a brick throw from Ammanford with a good arm) - coupled with a better service from Carmarthen - Swansea via Llanelli and Gowerton. (maybe need a signaling upgrade from Pembrey to Carmarthen to better the headways and maybe also some line speed improvements)

Put this into a package with a "world class" bus / comfy coach connection from Carmarthen to Aberystwyth - and the job can be done for a pittance compared to rebuilding a lost line through the Welsh hills . (Oh yes - provide good road connections from the urban zone of Tregaron to both Lampeter and Aberystwyth)

Small capex , better use of an underused ex GWR cut off line , and more rail jobs at Carmarthen and some bus jobs at Aber / Carmarthen.
 

Bald Rick

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Not that I am biased or anything - but a package which accelerated Carmarthen to Cardiff trains by using the largely underused Swansea District line (at least 2 hourly) , and saving the slowish journey into Swansea High Street and the reverse ,direct to Port Talbot with calls only at Bridgend and maybe extended to Bristol would give an excellent option for the M4 corridor ( yes - I know the M4 ends at Pont Abraham, a brick throw from Ammanford with a good arm) - coupled with a better service from Carmarthen - Swansea via Llanelli and Gowerton. (maybe need a signaling upgrade from Pembrey to Carmarthen to better the headways and maybe also some line speed improvements)

Put this into a package with a "world class" bus / comfy coach connection from Carmarthen to Aberystwyth - and the job can be done for a pittance compared to rebuilding a lost line through the Welsh hills . (Oh yes - provide good road connections from the urban zone of Tregaron to both Lampeter and Aberystwyth)

Small capex , better use of an underused ex GWR cut off line , and more rail jobs at Carmarthen and some bus jobs at Aber / Carmarthen.

Agreed. Indeed for the cash needed to reinstate two miles of the line you could instead put it in the bank, and use the interest you'd get to pay for an hourly luxury coach service Aber - Lampeter - Camarthen with fares free.
 

ChiefPlanner

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Agreed. Indeed for the cash needed to reinstate two miles of the line you could instead put it in the bank, and use the interest you'd get to pay for an hourly luxury coach service Aber - Lampeter - Camarthen with fares free.

The coach link would also be able to provide free refreshments and locally sourced Welsh cakes as a passenger benefit.

What is there not to like ? i
 

Bald Rick

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The coach link would also be able to provide free refreshments and locally sourced Welsh cakes as a passenger benefit.

Let's go the whole hog, and throw in a couple of bottles of Double Dragon per passenger. Although that might require a lengthy rest stop at Lampeter, which would slow down the end to end time. Worth it though.
 
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