Manchester Fights To Keep Pacers

[Stonesourscotty]

My Bad it was 150144 with 142004 Seen it again on the 16:47 Orrell-Vic

Think it's unfair to compare Northern with FGW as Northern Covers a Much Larger Area serves many different types of area where as the FGW ones just stick to Rural work.

 

[devon_metro]

Rural?

 

[alex57601]

What is your source of information? You seem quite assured of this prophecy!

Put it this way, the only source to suggest that they could be transferring away is from a tabloid newspaper, and if you read the article it doesn't say anything that they will definitely be transferred away. And it would appear that nothing has been said to suggest they will be moving on apart from some worried councillors and local politicians

Until something is said otherwise, there's no reason to believe that five units will be leaving the Northern fleet. If anything, they may be reallocated to Heaton, but even that won't stop Northern deploying sets where it is needed...and it is obvious that Northern needs all the units they can get.

 

[metrocammel]

Purely hypothetical, but if Manchester had kept, and refurbished their 101s (in such a way Portugal did with their 1957 vintage 'Allan' railcars- http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=244636) I wonder if we'd have such a critical shortage of units? I remember asking the same question back in 2004 to fNW. I can't find the letter they wrote back now, but it did suggest at the time the withdrawal of the 5 units had put considerable pressure on their other services, (including, the reason I made the comment), trains being short-formed in the morning peaks from on the Standedge route to Manchester. The short term Manchester - Blackpool 31s apparently relieved the situation slightly. The situation back then was very different of course, and there were different variables- the 'reason' the 101s could be withdrawn was due to the 175s being able to cascade 156s, but the underlying fact still seems to be apparent. There was a chronic shortage of units then, and there still is.

 

[Techniquest]

Good to see that the Oldham loop allocations will be staying in Manchester!

 

[Techniquest]

On the subject of 142s, I'm after just 2 more for sight to finish the class (plenty to get for haulage mind!) and they're (AFAIK) both up in Manchester usually. They would be 142003 and 142079.

My questions therefore are: Has anyone noted these in Manchester lately? Would Manchester Victoria be my best bet to get them?

I ask as since I'll be in Manchester on the afternoon of March 13th I will be actively seeking the damn things. So long I have been trying to finish the class without success, I've given up doing it myself and am now asking for advice on where to look!

 

[350401]

142003 is in Manchester yes. Noticed it a few times on the Mid-Cheshire Line at off peak times. Not sure what is best re: Picc or Vic? Vic seems to see more 153s, 158s and 144s than Picc, whereas Picc is a mix of 142s, 150s and 156s on NT's diesel services.

 

[tbtc]

I wouldn't bet on 142s coming back from FGW in 2010. Remember when Northern took 12 158s of FGW, FGW got 12 142s from Northern, many of which were handed back last December. FGW now desperately need the 142s as long as possible.

I suppose it partly depends on *where* any new units (172s?) that Northern get would go before we can speculate on how many Pacers they'd want/ need.

 

[Failed Unit]

Thinking about it, it's slightly surprising that the Linconshire branch lines haven't had Pacers thrust upon them at some time (apart from the Sheffield - Lincoln services)...

They have been their in the past, but not since the privatisation.

In the late 1980's pacers could often be found on the Sleaford - Doncaster line. The 1607 Sleaford - Doncaster service often was a pacer when I was at school.

We occasionally had them on Cleethorpes - Newark but this was rare when there were not enough 150's for whatever reason.

When Lincolnshire was made part of Central and the Pacers went to Northern we were free - although I would rather have a seat on a pacer than stand on a 153!

 

[Techniquest]

142003 is in Manchester yes. Noticed it a few times on the Mid-Cheshire Line at off peak times. Not sure what is best re: Picc or Vic? Vic seems to see more 153s, 158s and 144s than Picc, whereas Picc is a mix of 142s, 150s and 156s on NT's diesel services.

Thanks, most appreciated! I'll be keeping an eye out for it then when I'm up there!

 

[TEW]

I suppose it partly depends on *where* any new units (172s?) that Northern get would go before we can speculate on how many Pacers they'd want/ need.

I have heard now that more 172s will go to FGW with Northern getting more 150s instead.

 

[tbtc]

I have heard now that more 172s will go to FGW with Northern getting more 150s instead.

Interesting.

At least this keeps the two fleets more "uniform", but does mean we're stuck with older stock up here...

 

[TEW]

Interesting.

At least this keeps the two fleets more "uniform", but does mean we're stuck with older stock up here...

It appears that some of the units originally intended for Northern will be used in the FGW Thames Valley instead with a few more for the FGW west fleet. With FGW getting units they will no longer need so many LM 150s so Northern will get those with FGW then presumably keeping 158s and maybe 142s.

 

[devon_metro]

FGW West will get 11 4 car 172s, before Northern get any of theirs.

This will mean 11 3 coach 158s are displaced for other FGW work, the 7 142s should then be retired or sent back north and thats an increase of 5 units.

 

[350401]

*rolls eyes* - why do Northern always come last behind in rolling stock allocation. Without going too off topic, if it has the word 'north' in the region title, its bottom priority. Though I agree FGW do need the units - having lived down in Oxford for 3 years, the amount of trains cancelled due to stock shortage was awful.

Still from my limited experience, the Centro 150s are in generally good condition and are mainly 3 car? Just need a deep clean, maybe some new seat covers, and painting into northern livery and we good to go

 

[Stonesourscotty]

I'll await confirmation in writing from a news source before i believe the rumour of fgw taking more of these new units although more 150's would be great...

 

[The_Rail_WAy]

Its probaly old news but I heard that FGW were due to aqquire extra 172 units amounting to 52 extra carriages over the next two years?

Link:

http://www.thisisbristol.co.uk/news...-carriages/article-501447-detail/article.html

 

[Failed Unit]

*rolls eyes* - why do Northern always come last behind in rolling stock allocation. Without going too off topic, if it has the word 'north' in the region title, its bottom priority. Though I agree FGW do need the units - having lived down in Oxford for 3 years, the amount of trains cancelled due to stock shortage was awful.

Still from my limited experience, the Centro 150s are in generally good condition and are mainly 3 car? Just need a deep clean, maybe some new seat covers, and painting into northern livery and we good to go

Sorry mate have to disagree, I think EMT have the shortest straw at them moment with NO plans to add more stock (oh wow 3 more 153's). Have you been on Liverpool - Norwich recently, the overcrowding on this route must now be among the worse in the country!

 

[350401]

Now you mention it, EMT do have it pretty bad. Yep, I catch it from Occy Rd to Stockport sometimes to connect with the extra-peak trains to Knutsford. Its pretty bad, but I usually get a seat, even on the 17.43. The state of the trains is dire however - really need the refurbs to get finished! Am I right in thinking the refurb will give rise to more seats? around 158 seats in a 158?! (thats about 6 less than a 4-car Voyager - in a 2-car unit!! - shows how much wasted space the 220s have).

 

[TEW]

Sorry mate have to disagree, I think EMT have the shortest straw at them moment with NO plans to add more stock (oh wow 3 more 153's). Have you been on Liverpool - Norwich recently, the overcrowding on this route must now be among the worse in the country!

But before Portsmouth-Cardiff trains were increased to three car they were horribly overcorwded, FGW need units quickly otherwise Porstmouth-Cardiff trains will go back to 2 car as FGW have to give ATW back 5 units.

 

[87015]

But before Portsmouth-Cardiff trains were increased to three car they were horribly overcorwded, FGW need units quickly otherwise Porstmouth-Cardiff trains will go back to 2 car as FGW have to give ATW back 5 units.

Had heard FGW were planning to play hard-ball in other areas if made to return said 150s regardless of any new train order...

 

[whoshotjimmi]

*rolls eyes* - why do Northern always come last behind in rolling stock allocation. Without going too off topic, if it has the word 'north' in the region title, its bottom priority. Though I agree FGW do need the units - having lived down in Oxford for 3 years, the amount of trains cancelled due to stock shortage was awful.

Still from my limited experience, the Centro 150s are in generally good condition and are mainly 3 car? Just need a deep clean, maybe some new seat covers, and painting into northern livery and we good to go

We have to remember that FTPE are being given new trains - serving the busiest routes around Leeds and Manchester. This will compensate massively if Northern do not receive new build. Let's not also forget the planned new build EMU's for the Manchester region replacing 323, which will no doubt be at least one carriage longer.

If Northern get more 150's and 158's, I will not complain. The 158 is next to Godliness if you ask me, and the 150 works very well on busy services due to their superior standing room. It will also mean a more uniform fleet (as per the uniform fleet thread) improving efficiency. Tis all a very good idea if you ask me. By this time, the 142's may become less important to Northern and return to the lower use services and to train strengthening on key routes. northern are also very skillful at looking after their trains. A good refurbishment and the 158's are like new again.

Rebirth of the 158!

 

[MCR247]

Not meaning to go too off topic but are fTPE keeping the 185s aswell??

 

[devon_metro]

I'll await confirmation in writing from a news source before i believe the rumour of fgw taking more of these new units although more 150's would be great...

Its not a rumour.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Had heard FGW were planning to play hard-ball in other areas if made to return said 150s regardless of any new train order...

Good. Loosing 5 units would play havoc with West services and something would need to be done such as more loco hauled services. Also considering the West Country has more of a summer season than South Wales, summer might be interesting unless DafT are either willing to cough up for an extra few loco hauled sets (££££££££) or keep the 150s for now, and make a few people in a mountain in Wales not have their enhanced frequency service

 

[Techniquest]

Had heard FGW were planning to play hard-ball in other areas if made to return said 150s regardless of any new train order...

I've heard the same, one thinks the WAG wouldn't be happy if FGW do what I've heard they threatened to do!

 

[tbtc]

FGW West will get 11 4 car 172s, before Northern get any of theirs.

This will mean 11 3 coach 158s are displaced for other FGW work, the 7 142s should then be retired or sent back north and thats an increase of 5 units.

Meaning FGW can use 3 coach 158s on "local" services, rather than the Pacers that are much more suited to that kind of work?

 

[TEW]

Meaning FGW can use 3 coach 158s on "local" services, rather than the Pacers that are much more suited to that kind of work?

No, that is what Northern do!
I don't call Gloucester-Weymouth Local Services, they need all the 158s they can get in the summer, a 150 on that route is horrible.
Pacers are used in Devon on journeys of about two hours.
150s are reguarly used on 3 and 4 hour train journeys.

 

[tbtc]

No, that is what Northern do!
I don't call Gloucester-Weymouth Local Services, they need all the 158s they can get in the summer, a 150 on that route is horrible.
Pacers are used in Devon on journeys of about two hours.
150s are reguarly used on 3 and 4 hour train journeys.

Surely the Exeter local services are more suited to Pacers than 158s?

If they need extra units in the summer, then that's a seperate issue, but a three car 158 sounds overkill for the routes you've mentioned for most of the year. Bear in mind that the 158s are better for top speed, but you want something with better acceleration for services that stop at every single stop, like the ones you're talking about.

 

[me123]

The thing that annoys me about overcrowding in the north: it's easily rectified. They don't really need that many trains in the great scheme of things to solve the problems, so it's frustrating that the investments are going elsewhere, in some cases where there's no real overcrowding to tackle.

 

[TEW]

Surely the Exeter local services are more suited to Pacers than 158s?

If they need extra units in the summer, then that's a seperate issue, but a three car 158 sounds overkill for the routes you've mentioned for most of the year. Bear in mind that the 158s are better for top speed, but you want something with better acceleration for services that stop at every single stop, like the ones you're talking about.

I didn't say that Exeter Local Services should be 3 car 158s. With the introduction of 158s on to other routes the far more suited 150s can be brought back for the Exeter Local Services.