duesselmartin
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Does anyone know how many hours the Dover to Oostende ferry took?
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Why do Eurostar services finish so early in the evening?
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Does anyone know how many hours the Dover to Oostende ferry took?
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When I used it, around 2hrs.
About 3 1/2 hours at its fastest. The 14.44 BST Victoria connected with a 16.45 ferry due Oostende 2020 CET in 1981 (mainland Europe wasn't then using summer time, the winter train was therefore an hour earlier).
Peter Mugridge
Veteran Member
Thanks EM2; saved me a search.
I do remember seeing them at St Katharine's Dock.
Went on them once from Dover to Oostende; 90 minutes each way. Flat calm sea that day so we got quite a bit of sustained fast running. Ride quality was very similar to a Mk3 carriage. Managed to bash both on that trip; one on the way out and the other on the way back - admittedly I planned it like that...
It does seem a little strange there is no later service to Dijon though it must be said. Not even a combination of local trains can I find. Admittedly the 2023 does not get to it's final destination of Mulhouse Ville until 2320.
There was also a Brighton - Dieppe jetfoil service. Only lasted a few years though.
My abiding memory of that was twofold:
1) when both engines stopped mid channel, leaving us tossing around like a small fishing boat...
2) the initial service which on the French side was an SNCF Caravelle 2-car DMU literally waiting on the quayside at the top of the steps up out of the jetfoil in the inner harbour
It was unusual in that it left from Brighton Marina, very different to those of us who crossed the channel frequently by ferry (I calculate roughly that I have crossed the English Channel by ferry at least 300 times in my lifetime...)
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The culture in France is also still largely to go to bed at a 'civilised' time unlike the '24 hour' culture in the UK
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Also happened with the Silver Arrow service, connection train - plane at Le Touquet airport, and train arriving/departing from the airport's apron, needing a clearance from the airport tower to get in. The track branch from the Paris - Boulogne main line is still visible today, as well as some track remnants on the airport proper.
https://youtu.be/z6kvL4KDcHI
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Peter Mugridge
Veteran Member
Ah, Gordon - that was not a Jetfoil, it was a sidewall hovercraft called the Agnes 200. Belonged to the French Navy and was used experimentally just for one summer season. They bolted what was literally a pair of Portacabins onto the rear deck to provide passenger seating. There was more accomodation near the front in what was nominally the crew galley and mess room, but the windows in that were too high up to see out of when seated.
I have a strong suspicion we might have been on the same crossing if that "engines stopping" was on the way back just 30 minutes off Brighton - they told me it was a deliberate heaving-to when we got caught in a sudden squall as the conditions in the marina entrance were too rough to safely enter.
In my case I did it as an "out and back" return trip just to sample it.
Now at the time I was rather active in the hovercraft sphere and on the way out that day we were about half way over when a crewman came up to me and asked if I was Peter Mugridge and upon my confirming that he said: "The Captain would like to see you on the bridge." - now bear in mind that this was a commissioned French Navy vessel so to be invited up there was highly unusual in the first place; had an interesting chat with the Captain about hovercraft in general while I was up there and was even allowed to take a couple of photos...
The vessel still exists but has been laid up somewhere for several years now.
Likewise again the earlier connections with the hovercraft service. We went through Dover-Boulogne to Paris in 1976, and the train from the special hovercraft terminal to Gare du Nord was a 2-car Caravelle, which had decidedly suburban-style upright narrow seating, and every seat taken. There might have even been a few standees for what was about a 2.5 hour journey. Fortunately on the return, with a similar passenger load, a 4-car formation was provided.
When I took it, in 1993 I think, it took longer than that!
I was on the night boat, and I think it took a bit longer than 3.5 hours. I remember arriving at Ostend station a little after 0500.
The Ostend ships from Dover were long scheduled at 4 hours. At peak summer weekends each vessel could get in two round trips in a day, and there were even duplicates which shadowed one another within sight across the sea. The route was a very early implementer of diesel ships, in the 1930s, which while more efficient were invariably a bit slower than the steam turbine powered ships which BR continued to buy well into the 1960s. It was always operated by the Belgian company, the UK rail shipping operation keeping away from the route, although BR provided the connecting boat trains, of course. Two ships together might require four or five connecting boat trains, and a huge crush at Dover Marine.
The memory fades. It was 1991, from Western Docks to Oostende, off the boat train from Vic (12xCEP/BEP+MLV IIRC)
I am not a good sailor as a passenger,a nd the thought of more than 2hrs on anything seaworthy I can't 'drive' myself has me reaching for the smelling salts. I thought it was around 2:15, however it seems I was wrong.
johnnychips
Established Member
The Jetfoil was great until it got cancelled because of rough seas. I can remember when this happened once twenty five years ago or so, we were put on the ferry instead, loads of people were being sick. Everyone breathed a sigh of relief when the White Cliffs came into sight, then we had to wait another three hours because of the tide. Set off from Oostende at about 0900 and got back to Donny at 2330.
God bless Eurostar!
God bless Eurostar!
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That's what I remembered, too, and I was surprised when I checked the timetable. I think it may have varied with the ship - and with the price of fuel!
johnnychips
Established Member
I went on it quite a few times and it never did a direct route. It went from Dover three-quarters of the way to Calais, then turned left and hugged the French and Belgian coast; it did the opposite on return.
Peter Mugridge
Veteran Member
That's because if they ran direct they would go aground on the Goodwin Sands.
LiftFan
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To save money E* should have bought the Pacers from Northern, ATW and GWR to use them in place of the new trains
Shorter distance commuter routes like the Transmanche Metro might have had more opportunity for later international departures but little chance that'll happen even before the decision some Brits made last year.
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33Hz
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I totally agree with the OP.
Even a one hour later departure from Brussels would open up more opportunities for business travellers out of Netherlands and western Germany.
Also, re-timetabling on TGV Lyria means it is no longer possible to leave Geneva at a sensible time for a day's work and make it back for the last Eurostar. Even 30 minutes later would fix this.
I'd imaging that there would be demand for an evening out in Paris and then train back to London for a midnight arrival.
If only an open access operator could get hold of some Channel Tunnel certified trains...
Even a one hour later departure from Brussels would open up more opportunities for business travellers out of Netherlands and western Germany.
Also, re-timetabling on TGV Lyria means it is no longer possible to leave Geneva at a sensible time for a day's work and make it back for the last Eurostar. Even 30 minutes later would fix this.
I'd imaging that there would be demand for an evening out in Paris and then train back to London for a midnight arrival.
If only an open access operator could get hold of some Channel Tunnel certified trains...
When I last took it around 93, the train still went to Western docks station, but we were then bused to Eastern docks for the prince filip. And then arrival at Ostend with the trains all waiting, mine was for Basle, (tho' it went through to Bern)
I took the overnight ferry in early 1993 and had a bus transfer to the Eastern Docks. I was only going to Brussels, nowhere as exotic as Basle!
Eurostar is an open access operator. On this side of the channel at any rate.
Eurostar isn't a monopoly. It competes in two principal markets: London Paris and London Brussels. (Plus a much smaller part in markets further afield). There are approximately twice as many flights as trains between London airports and Paris airports (albeit approx half the seats). And generally flying is cheaper even allowing for getting to the airports either end and Air passenger duty.
That is the competition, and it is what drives Eurostars pricing.
I take the first two points, but an evening out in Paris which meant being back at Nord for 22:00? My memory is that lots of evening events don't start till 20:30....
Still, at least a day return would have to be cheap to fill the seats!
I beg to differ. It is a monopoly for the transport from city centre to city centre. Price for this specific product would go down considerably if the same service was also offered by another operator.
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duesselmartin
Established Member
On that argument ScotRail has a monopoly on Glasgow to Aberdeen services , ignoring other forms of transport
It wouldn't. It might drop a little, but there is no escaping the toll charged on every passenger by Eurotunnel, which is £22 each way IIRC. Add in track access charges both sides of the tunnel plus the cost of running a TOC (train hire, maintenance, electricity, staff, etc) and an average one way fare of around £85 is needed to break even. Which makes the £29 one way fare Eurostar offer remarkably good value.
Oh yes it was (cue Panto...)
The Brighton - Dieppe service was dubbed Seajet, and the craft was the Normandy Princess, a Boeing 929 Jetfoil, build number 12, built by Boeing in Renton, Washington, USA.
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I agree, even the £49 etc fares are perfectly reasonable.
I'm far from convinced that any additional 'competition' would make any real difference. There is competition on the short sea Channel crossings but that does not translate into very low fares any more due to the costs involved to all operators in providing the equipment and service.
In real terms, getting to Europe from Britain by all forms of transport is much cheaper than it was in the 'old days', a fact that often seems to get overlooked.
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