Why do Eurostar services finish so early in the evening?

[swt class 450]

I am just wondering why do all Eurostar services finish so early in the evening? Is there a particular reason for this?

At the moment the last trains are as follows:

19:52 Brussels - London 21:03
20:03 London - Brussels 23:05
20:31 London - Paris 23:41
21:13 Paris - London 22:39

For a major international service linking large major capital cities it seems like an appalling service to finish at this time. Surely there should be at the very least a 23:00 departure from Brussels to London and a 23:00 departure from Paris to London. Both services would arrive in London just after approximately 00:00 (UK time). Similar timed departures in the other direction would be good as well. I imagine this would attract a lot more customers to use the service. And it would make day trips much easier as well.

 

[Groningen]

And yet at 19.17 there is a TGV going from Brussel to Lyon.

 

[ooo]

I am just wondering why do all Eurostar services finish so early in the evening? Is there a particular reason for this?

At the moment the last trains are as follows:

19:52 Brussels - London 21:03
20:03 London - Brussels 23:05
20:31 London - Paris 23:41
21:13 Paris - London 22:39

For a major international service linking large major capital cities it seems like an appalling service to finish at this time. Surely there should be at the very least a 23:00 departure from Brussels to London and a 23:00 departure from Paris to London. Both services would arrive in London just after approximately 00:00 (UK time). Similar timed departures in the other direction would be good as well. I imagine this would attract a lot more customers to use the service. And it would make day trips much easier as well.

Part of it I imagine will be because they have a capacity of 750 (more on the new trains) meaning they need a very large demand to make services viable

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[matt]

And it would make day trips much easier as well.

Would it though as there are not many post midnight departures from London.

 

[Groningen]

Maybe because that passportcontrol (bordercontrol) wants to sleep early.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Could the times of the last possible connecting trains have anything to do with it? Not too much point in people arriving at St Pancras/Gar de Nord/Brussels Midi if they're going to get stuck there until the morning

 

[EM2]

Engineering work as well.
There's not many nights when there's not something going on on HS1, plus there's the network on the other side and in the tunnel itself.

 

[CC 72100]

Not too much point in people arriving at St Pancras/Gar de Nord/Brussels Midi if they're going to get stuck there until the morning

Bloody hell, Gare du Nord is bad enough during the day, can only imagine what it's like at night!

 

[Bald Rick]

Is it because Eurostar is a purely commercial operation, and will therefore only run services it can operate at a profit? And with demand typically low for late night long distance trains, they wouldn't make money therefore won't run.

Note there are only two flights from Paris to London that arrive after 2100, and the latest is 2215. From Brussels the last two arrivals are at 1935 and 2135. That shows you the market.

Also, although not serving international capitals, note the London arrival / departure times of the last trains by Grand Central / Hull Trains - the only other commercial long distance passenger operators in the country.

Put another way - do you think Virgin would run trains after about 2100 if they weren't required to by the terms of the franchise?

 

[Gordon]

The times don't seem that early to me.

I would seldom book a Eurostar if the arrival time at destination was around midnight, and I'm a seasoned traveller and railway enthusiast, so such a timing would be unlikely to attract families.

Also outbound from London later than at present would not work because of the time difference. Anything later than the current 23.41 arrival in Paris would be a very unattractive arrival time at Paris Nord.


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[30907]

FWIW the last train from Frankfurt to Brussels arrives 2135, and the last from Brussels to Cologne arrives 2115.

The hours time difference does I think have an effect, in that people are not very likely to want to leave Brussels at 2100 (though if I lived in London I would like that 1952 to run half an hour later to connect out of the new 1935 arrival from Frankfurt!)

Paris is considerably more popular a leisure destination than Brussels too, with double the number of trains.

Another factor is that most Londoners face a considerable commute home, whereas traditionally Parisians live within the old city boundary.

Now of course if Eurostar operated the Ryanair model, and the only evening train from Brussels was at 2200, people would no doubt use it.

 

[Greenback]

The times don't seem that early to me.

I would seldom book a Eurostar if the arrival time at destination was around midnight, and I'm a seasoned traveller and railway enthusiast, so such a timing would be unlikely to attract families.

Also outbound from London later than at present would not work because of the time difference. Anything later than the current 23.41 arrival in Paris would be a very unattractive arrival time at Paris Nord.

I can't aruge with anything you've said there Gordon. Nor can I dispute that Eurostar will only run trains they think they will make money on, and they do have a large cpaacity to fill on their services.

In other words, there ar elots of reason why running later trains than they do now would not work for the company. The only place where I reckon they've got some room for manoeuvre is in running a train from Paris an hour or so later, but I'd question how viable that would be, demand wise.

 

[Chris999999]

I am just wondering why do all Eurostar services finish so early in the evening? Is there a particular reason for this?

Whenever there are disruptions affecting Eurostar, trains are not run later in the evening to enable passengers to reach their destinations. The reason given is invariably that the high speed line from Calais is not available.

 

[leshuttle]

Out of interest before the Channel Tunnel what were the latest departure times for boat trains to Dover/elsewhere?

 

[Bletchleyite]

The times don't seem that early to me.

I would seldom book a Eurostar if the arrival time at destination was around midnight, and I'm a seasoned traveller and railway enthusiast, so such a timing would be unlikely to attract families.

Yet plenty of people *do* book flights arriving at such hours. Mainly, I suppose, because of aircraft returning to base meaning it's the only time on offer, though.

Part of the problem is E* being restricted to 400m-long trains (because of the evacuation processes in the tunnel). If they could have 5-car ones, say, they might fill them.

 

[Gordon]

Out of interest before the Channel Tunnel what were the latest departure times for boat trains to Dover/elsewhere?

Not including night connections such as the Night Ferry, services varied slightly over the years but roughly speaking 14.00 was about the latest time a boat train would leave Victoria to give a service to Paris arriving between 23.00 and midnight same day. Because of the faster sea crossing on the hovercraft route that service could leave London (Charing X) later (around 16.00) for a circa 23.00 arrival in Paris.

For Brussels (via Oostende) I have looked at random at my 1978 Cooks, and there was a 14.44 from Victoria, giving a 2319 arrival in Brussels.



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[Peter Mugridge]

For Brussels (via Oostende) I have looked at random at my 1978 Cooks, and there was a 14.44 from Victoria, giving a 2319 arrival in Brussels.

From the timing and allowing for the time difference between the UK and the Continent, I am guessing that was a Jetfoil connection rather than a ferry connection?

 

[Gordon]

Yet plenty of people *do* book flights arriving at such hours.

IMO that's because culturally people consider air travel in a completely different way to rail travel. Plus, pretty obviously, a plane is much faster than a train so can have a later departure from origin for a 'very end of the day' arrival at destination (for example I gladly use the late flights from Switzerland to Gatwick, but both ends are not far from my ultimate origin and destination)


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[Gordon]

From the timing and allowing for the time difference between the UK and the Continent, I am guessing that was a Jetfoil connection rather than a ferry connection?

No IIRC 1978 was pre Jetfoil. It is shown as a normal ferry connection.


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[Peter Mugridge]

That just shows I'm getting so old all that the years are merging into one!!

I could have sworn the Jetfoils started in the late 1970s - though I do recall they operated first from London before moving to the Channel ports...

 

[Starmill]

I think there is also an element of it following French custom, which is not like the UK with regards to the last trains from London to other major cities being very late.

The final journeys from Paris are at these times on a weekday:

to Marseille: 2019 arriving Marseille St Charles 2343
to Lyon: 2059 arriving Lyon Part Dieu 2256
to Tolouse: 1822 arriving Toulouse-Matabiau 2359 *
to Nice: 1719 arriving Nice Ville 2303
to Nantes: 2123 arriving Nantes 2342
to Strasbourg: 2025 arriving Strasbourg 2213
to Montpelier: 2015 arriving Montpellier Saint-Roch 2344
to Bordeaux: 1923 arriving Bordeaux-St-Jean 2239 *
to Lille: 2221 arriving Lille Flandres 2339
to Rennes: 2108 arriving Rennes 2326 *
to Reims: 2058 arriving Reims 2144
to Le Havre: 2049 arriving Le Havre 2255
to Saint Etienne: 1958 arriving Saint Etienne Chateaucreux 2310
to Toulon: 1937 arriving Toulon 2350
to Grenoble: TER / Bus connection to Grenoble Gare Routière from the 2059 Lyon service
to Dijon: 2023 arriving Dijon Ville 2127

I'm sure there are more but that seems to cover most of the largest French population centres.

Those services to Bordeaux, Strasbourg and Reims are non-stop to their destinations too. Unusual to see that in the UK at that kind of time of day.

* May be improved later this year with the opening of further high-speed route.

Internationally, the final Thalys to Brussels is the 2125, arriving Brusseles Midi 2247. The final service to Amsterdam is the 1925 arriving at Amsterdam Centraal at 2242. The final Thalys to Köln is the 1755, arriving at Köln Hbf 2115. You can however still get to Köln Hbf at 0042 by using the 1906 ICE from Paris Est and changing at Frankfurt Hbf.

Indeed, the final direct train to Frankfurt is this 1906 arriving Frankfurt Hbf 2258. However, as it is Germany you are travelling into you can still get to Frankfurt later than that, as there is an overnight IC from Basel all the way to Kiel at 2313. You can join this train at Offenburg at 0044 and arrive at Frankfurt Hbf at 0302. You catch the Strasbourg service from Paris Est as above and then a local train from Strasbourg to Offenburg. This gives you some idea of how things are not quite the same in Germany. Quite why you would want to arrive at 0302 I have no idea but they must think that the overnight ICs have value and personally I like the notion.

IC 208 (Route from the: 03.05.17)

Days of operation:
not every day, 2. until 4. May 2017

Comments:
Number of bicycles conveyed limited 
Bicycles conveyed - subject to reservation 
Bordbistro (Köln Hbf --> Kiel Hbf)

Current information about your trip:
Münster(Westf)Hbf -  Hamburg Hbf:  Information.  Only a few available seats. We recommend you reserve a seat.

Basel SBB	 	23:13 +0	9	
Basel Bad Bf	 	23:23 +0	4	 
Freiburg(Breisgau) Hbf	00:03 +0	00:05 +0	1	 
Offenburg	00:42 +0	00:44 +0	3	 
Baden-Baden	01:06 +0	01:08 +0	4	 
Karlsruhe Hbf	01:27 +0	01:30 +0	3	 
Bruchsal	01:41 +0	01:43 +0	3	 
Mannheim Hbf	02:14 +0	02:16 +0	3	 
Frankfurt(Main)Hbf	03:02 +0	03:21 +0	19	 
Frankfurt(M) Flughafen Fernbf	03:35 +0	03:40 +0	Fern 7	 
Mainz Hbf	03:58 +0	04:00 +0	3a/b	 
Koblenz Hbf	05:11 +0	05:13 +0	3	 
Bonn Hbf	05:44 +0	05:46 +0	2	 
Köln Hbf	06:05 +0	06:10 +0	2	 
Düsseldorf Hbf	06:31 +0	06:33 +0	17	 
Duisburg Hbf	06:44 +0	06:45 +0	13	 
Essen Hbf	06:57 +0	06:59 +0	6	 
Bochum Hbf	07:08 +0	07:09 +0	5	 
Dortmund Hbf	07:21 +0	07:25 +0	10	 
Münster(Westf)Hbf	07:56 +0	07:58 +0	12	 
Osnabrück Hbf	08:22 +0	08:24 +0	3	 
Bremen Hbf	09:15 +0	09:18 +0	10	 
Hamburg-Harburg	10:01 +0	10:03 +0	2	 
Hamburg Hbf	10:13 +0	10:16 +0	12	 
Hamburg Dammtor	10:19 +0	10:20 +0	3	 
Neumünster	11:02 +0	11:03 +0	3	 
Kiel Hbf	11:21 +0	 	3

 

[Ianno87]

Yet plenty of people *do* book flights arriving at such hours. Mainly, I suppose, because of aircraft returning to base meaning it's the only time on offer, though.

Part of the problem is E* being restricted to 400m-long trains (because of the evacuation processes in the tunnel). If they could have 5-car ones, say, they might fill them.

People often book flights at those times as the margins of the day often have lower prices due to the yield management system. But, as you say, it's a flight that effectively needs to operate anyway to get an aircraft back to base (being the return leg of a 1600-1900 ish departure from the base).

And passengers flying are more likely to drive from the airport to their end destination, unlike Eurostar which deposits you at a city terminal (or Ebbsfleet) with limited onward travel opportunities late at night.

Given that Eurostar have access to stabling and servicing facilities at each of the three capitals, there is no commercial or operational need to operate such moves at the margins of the day - they'd have to sell pretty cheap fares to fill their trains (possubly undermining the profit on earlier departures)

 

[GW43125]

Out of interest before the Channel Tunnel what were the latest departure times for boat trains to Dover/elsewhere?

Also out of interest, when roughly was the last E* in Waterloo days, or hasn't it changed much?

 

[30907]

Out of interest before the Channel Tunnel what were the latest departure times for boat trains to Dover/elsewhere?

Apart from night services, 14.30 or 15.00 when BST was in force, and 12.30 from Paris except for a seasonal later train. But of course you wouldn't attempt a business trip in a day!

The hovercraft connections were a bit later but I don't have a timetable handy.

And the last trains to/from Waterloo weren't much different IIRC, certainly once the CTRL opened.

Apologies, I completely missed several earlier posts. Gordon's in particular which is more exact.

 

[Taunton]

To put it crudely, airports are a sight more pleasant and less intimidating than city centre stations at midnight.

 

[Ianigsy]

I think there is also an element of it following French custom, which is not like the UK with regards to the last trains from London to other major cities being very late.

It looks as if the French way of doing things is to have the last train arrive at its destination between around 10.30 and midnight, probably on the grounds that the majority of people using such a train will either have been in Paris on business during the day or connected there from elsewhere. The geography and economy of federalised Germany is much more diffuse, so it probably makes sense to keep some sort of overnight service between the major cities going.

 

[Taunton]

French long distance services used to be very different to Britain, and there are still traces of the old practices. Broadly, there might be one day and one night service, both made up of a very substantial formation, and quite often duplicated at close headway at various times of extra demand. Connections along the way slotted in to this.

Although the TGV has brought more regular interval operation, I witnessed one August Saturday at Gare de Lyon in Paris a few years ago the arrival of a huge twin-unit double-deck TGV from the Riviera, which must have had over 1,000 passengers, followed about three minutes later by a comparable relief service. Fortunately they were not put on opposite sides of the same island platform, but the station, taxis, Metro entrances, etc, were absolute chaos for the next 30 minutes.

 

[Blinder]

That just shows I'm getting so old all that the years are merging into one!!

I could have sworn the Jetfoils started in the late 1970s - though I do recall they operated first from London before moving to the Channel ports...

Jetfoils never operated from London

 

[EM2]

Jetfoils never operated from London

Au contraire - https://thameshighway.wordpress.com/2013/12/10/boeing-jetfoils-on-the-thames/

Around 1980 the Thames saw the introduction of the Boeing 929 Jetfoil – 27.4m in length and 9.5 wide, powered by a Detroit diesel Allison gas turbines rated at 3700bhp each with a top speed of 46knots and cruising speed of 43 knots. The retractable foil could be done underway at up to around 5knots.

The seventh Jetfoil 929 built and the first to enter service on the Thames with P&O was named FLYING PRINCESS and built in Washington in 1976. On June 1st 1977 the London to Zeebrugge started ,although the trial was stopped in September 1978. P&O were to introduce two newer 929-115’s and in Feb 1980 started the London to Ostende service. Three round trips were carried out per day but sadly after only sevon [sic] months the service ceased and P&O put the 929’s on the market. Both still operate in Hong Kong.

 

[30907]

French long distance services used to be very different to Britain, and there are still traces of the old practices. Broadly, there might be one day and one night service, both made up of a very substantial formation, and quite often duplicated at close headway at various times of extra demand. Connections along the way slotted in to this

To this basic pattern, on key routes, were typically added limited-stop, limited-load, high-speed, high-quality business services leaving Paris early morning and early evening, like Le Capitole on the Limoges-Toulouse route - at one stage under the TEE brand.