Class 365 - are they leaving Govia Thameslink Railway?

[physics34]

Good to know it wasn't just me.



My backside hurt like heck, after a few minutes of sitting in a Class 700. I sure hope that the Class 800s will still be comfortable, but someone on here said otherwise...

somehow we need a petition or protest about the 700 seats.

 

[philjo]

1R12 07:12 Royston to Kings cross is usually a 317 whenever I have used it in the last few weeks (as it was today). I was in one of the extra legroom seats under the pantograph this morning!

 

[MatthewRead]

There aren't the services to use all 40.

Fitting on-train DOO equipment would allow all platform DOO equipment (mirrors and camera+monitors) to be decommissioned, rather than maintaining them for peak time services only.

This is why GWR should never had gone back on their plan to use them it just creates a bigger surplus of EMU's now:-x

 

[D365]

This is why GWR should never had gone back on their plan to use them it just creates a bigger surplus of EMU's now:-x

It shouldn't have been a plan in the first place. A larger Class 387 fleet was always going to make more sense economically.

I imagine that the only reason the 365s were proposed originally was because 29+8 387s (from the very first 116+140 carriages order placed in 2013 - the latter being split with Gatwick Express) was not enough.

 

[Bornin1980s]

My backside hurt like heck, after a few minutes of sitting in a Class 700. I sure hope that the Class 800s will still be comfortable, but someone on here said otherwise...[/QUOTE]

Apparently, the Standard Class seats on the 800 are identical to the First Class seats on the 700.

 

[Envy123]

My backside hurt like heck, after a few minutes of sitting in a Class 700. I sure hope that the Class 800s will still be comfortable, but someone on here said otherwise...

No... Newark to London will be a massive pain in the backside, literally. :cry:

 

[Bromley boy]

I havn't read all the way through but I wonder how many suggestions of sending them to Southeastern popped up.

They have no SDO which is needed for 12-car running on Metro routes. Mid-to long distance are getting 377s. SE Metro has seen 90% of the obstacles to 12-car running overcome the past 5 years at a cost of millions. It needs stock with SDO to enable it - work on signals and some stations but it isn't that expensive to do. Surely having 365s without SDO is not the answer, unless all Networkers get SDO.

Then again neither does SE's current fleet of 465/6s which aren't shifting anytime soon...

 

[bramling]

Then again neither does SE's current fleet of 465/6s which aren't shifting anytime soon...

I have a feeling fitting SDO to Networkers could well be a difficult and expensive process, especially if going for something more than a very basic rudimentary system.

I haven't been following the SE lengthening upgrade in detail, so what are the remaining infrastructure obstacles? I know Charing Cross is a major issue as is Woolwich Dockyard. What else are we looking at, in particular that's difficult and/or expensive? It does seem to me that the ideal solution is simply to get all the infrastructure up to a point where SDO isn't necessary, but equally I'm aware that will have a price tag and disruption tag attached to it.

 

[Bornin1980s]

Apparently, the Standard Class seats on the 800 are identical to the First Class seats on the 700.

No... Newark to London will be a massive pain in the backside, literally. :cry:[/QUOTE]

Is Class 700 First Class worse than HST Standard Class?

 

[Envy123]

Is Class 700 First Class worse than HST Standard Class?

I really couldn't tell, I've not been on either.

The Azuma Trains do promise even more comfort than before, so maybe the less comfy seats will only be on GWR services.

 

[coppercapped]

This is why GWR should never had gone back on their plan to use them it just creates a bigger surplus of EMU's now:-x

Was it fGW/GWR's plan in the first place? As I remember the stock cascade was announced by the then Minister for Transport, Andrew Adonis.

 

[43096]

I really couldn't tell, I've not been on either.



The Azuma Trains do promise even more comfort than before, so maybe the less comfy seats will only be on GWR services.

If you believe that then you'll believe anything...

 

[D365]

If you believe that then you'll believe anything...

Do we really need more people kicking up a fuss about the IEPs on an otherwise unrelated discussion?

 

[Envy123]

If you believe that then you'll believe anything...

Then, looks like I'm not moving to Newark if I'm going to get an uncomfortable seat for such a journey.

 

[43096]

Do we really need more people kicking up a fuss about the IEPs on an otherwise unrelated discussion?

Thread drift happens, deal with it...

In any case, I wasn't the one who brought the subject up.

 

[D365]

It gets quite frustrating when there's a complaint about seating every other page in a lot of discussions.

I for one am quite satisfied with the Class 387 seating and layout for the type of journey that I see them on, and would consider them equal and in many ways superior to the Class 365 for their intended outer suburban duties.

Not to mention, far far better than the Class 317 seats. And they finally have prominent luggage storage facilities.

 

[bramling]

It gets quite frustrating when there's a complaint about seating every other page in a lot of discussions.

I for one am quite satisfied with the Class 387 seating and layout for the type of journey that I see them on, and would consider them equal and in many ways superior to the Class 365 for their intended outer suburban duties.

Not to mention, far far better than the Class 317 seats. And they finally have prominent luggage storage facilities.

I agree the IEP is a little off-topic for this thread.

However, the fact that lots of people find the ironing board seats uncomfortable should lead the industry to finding something better, yet thus far this doesn't seem to have occurred. This is not just an issue which has over-salience on this forum- I write this from inside a GN 387, and guess what I've already heard someone comment that they find the seats too hard and too upright. When we get moving I bet they will comment on the poor ride too. Surely it can't be *that* hard to find a seat that most people like? In 20 years I've never heard anyone comment on 365 seating, one way or other, which suggests to me they tick the box of satisfying as many people as possible.

 

[Bromley boy]

I have a feeling fitting SDO to Networkers could well be a difficult and expensive process, especially if going for something more than a very basic rudimentary system.

I haven't been following the SE lengthening upgrade in detail, so what are the remaining infrastructure obstacles? I know Charing Cross is a major issue as is Woolwich Dockyard. What else are we looking at, in particular that's difficult and/or expensive? It does seem to me that the ideal solution is simply to get all the infrastructure up to a point where SDO isn't necessary, but equally I'm aware that will have a price tag and disruption tag attached to it.

Platform lengthening is still the key one. On the Orpington to Victoria route, apart from Orpington, Petts Wood, Bromley South, Beckehnham J, the platforms are all 8 car with no room to extend. Same on the Catford Loop and Sevenoakes via Bat and Ball (although this is worked almost exclusively by Thameslink nowadays).

Victoria itself has a couple of 8 car platforms, due to short platform lengths and/or interference of long formations with entry/exit pointwork for adjacent platforms. Cannon St is all 12 car, Ch+ platforms 1,2, and 3 only are permissible for 12 car networker formations (with an awkward "alighting only" wooden extension on p3).

MOST other metro platforms are 12 car, with one or two exceptions, Woolwich Dockyard is a (ridiculously tight) 10 car and is boxed in by tunnels at either end. This is worked around by making 12 car networker diagrams skip it.

There have also been a few incidents with 12 stop car boards installed, unbelievably, at the wrong point, resulting in stop-shorts when the train was stopped at what was marked up as the correct point. Stock shortage is another issue.

In summary, it's all a bit of a mess, there are relatively few 12 car networker workings, restricted to the peaks, none on the Chatham mainline. It's difficult to see much expansion beyond this, far less an "all 12 car" metro railway for the foreseeable future without new (and a lot more) stock.

 

[D365]

However, the fact that lots of people find the ironing board seats uncomfortable should lead the industry to finding something better, yet thus far this doesn't seem to have occurred. This is not just an issue which has over-salience on this forum- I write this from inside a GN 387, and guess what I've already heard someone comment that they find the seats too hard and too upright. When we get moving I bet they will comment on the poor ride too. Surely it can't be *that* hard to find a seat that most people like? In 20 years I've never heard anyone comment on 365 seating, one way or other, which suggests to me they tick the box of satisfying as many people as possible.

This is what I'm afraid I have to take issue with. It is up to the industry to find a better compromise. However that is not something that this forum can control. Therefore I really don't see the point in every discussion leading back to seats, especially when the vast majority of visitors are more interested in discussing more "bigger picture" rolling stock matters.

As I've said, I quite like the seats, and I know others do too. Since they are content, they don't need to voice any frustrations and thus we don't hear so much from that side of the arguement.

 

[jopsuk]

I have a feeling fitting SDO to Networkers could well be a difficult and expensive process, especially if going for something more than a very basic rudimentary system.

there's a load of 317s being fitted. However there's an issue with Networkers not having inter-unit gangways, so it's probably feasible even if SDO were fitted to have a 12-car formation (say) stop at a 10 car platform, but not an 8 car one

 

[sk688]

Id like to see some come to LM , to replace the shoddy 319s that LM have , and to cover the shortfall of the Watford 350s

 

[adamedwards]

I'd like to see any spare 365s used to replace 313s on Kings Cross services, so there is more room and faster, as higher top speed.

 

[Ianno87]

I'd like to see any spare 365s used to replace 313s on Kings Cross services, so there is more room and faster, as higher top speed.

The 313s are going soon enough anyway, to be replaced by new 717s.

Plus most if not all 313 diagrams today will end up down the Moorgate branch at some other point in the day, which cannot take 365s for numerous reasons.

 

[D365]

I'd like to see any spare 365s used to replace 313s on Kings Cross services, so there is more room and faster, as higher top speed.

There aren't any spare until 2018 which is when the Class 717s come in anyway.

 

[bramling]

There aren't any spare until 2018 which is when the Class 717s come in anyway.

There should be a slight increase in spare units from May, although slightly countered by the extra Ely services. The main 313 service I suspect we are talking about is the 0720 Letchworth-KX, which was originally 2x313 in the 1990s, then has variously been 2x 317 321 or 365 at various times, but is now back to 2x 313. They could conceivably put this back to 2x365, but only by making the diagramming tight, which may not be a good idea once the 317s are gone. Maybe when the Undesiros appear and 365s start being displaced then this may happen. The morning part of the diagram only does Hornsby Letchworth KX Hornsby so it's easy enough to change. There are a couple of other 313s into KX but this service is by far the worst and is always crush loaded- it was bad enough with 2x 365 so I hate to think what it's like with 2 cars missing!

 

[adamedwards]

This is the train I get from Hatfield at 07:46, which is not too bad, but on a busy day you see people unable to board at Oakleigh Park and New Southgate, especially if something has gone wrong with the 07:32 8 car fast train. It seems illogical to me to run a 6 car train to KX if you can run 8 cars, not least because then there is more flexibility if trains have to be swapped round if the service is disrupted and to maximise the use of track capacity.

The reduction to 6 cars happened before the 387s started coming over, so was probably GoVia squeezing the max from it's trains to free up 4 cars for somewhere else. But it could really do with being 8 again, hence my original comment. (The 313s out of KX in the evening are less of an issue as the peak is more spread out, but the same logic ought to apply. Perhaps dropping 4 cars at WGC to run back to KX ECS to form another 8 which I think did happen at one point with some trains?)

 

[bramling]

This is the train I get from Hatfield at 07:46, which is not too bad, but on a busy day you see people unable to board at Oakleigh Park and New Southgate, especially if something has gone wrong with the 07:32 8 car fast train. It seems illogical to me to run a 6 car train to KX if you can run 8 cars, not least because then there is more flexibility if trains have to be swapped round if the service is disrupted and to maximise the use of track capacity.

The reduction to 6 cars happened before the 387s started coming over, so was probably GoVia squeezing the max from it's trains to free up 4 cars for somewhere else. But it could really do with being 8 again, hence my original comment. (The 313s out of KX in the evening are less of an issue as the peak is more spread out, but the same logic ought to apply. Perhaps dropping 4 cars at WGC to run back to KX ECS to form another 8 which I think did happen at one point with some trains?)

Yes the stock was used for two other services, one was the 0544 Royston to KX which went from 1x 317 to 2x 317. If my memory is right the other went to providing a new 0618 Hitchin to KX service, in turn allowing a Peterborough to KX service to be speeded up. One presumes the logic was that the extra capacity was being used over a longer distance (as far out as Welwyn and Stevenage) rather than just inwards from New Barnet and people who have greater choice.

Actually the 0720 Letchworth to KX could well be ripe for being an early victim for the class 700 Undesiros to appear on, with the diagram being out-and-back from Hornsby. Perhaps one should be careful what one wishes for!

 

[D365]

Actually the 0720 Letchworth to KX could well be ripe for being an early victim for the class 700 Undesiros to appear on, with the diagram being out-and-back from Hornsby. Perhaps one should be careful what one wishes for!

You realise not everyone shares the same antipathy. "Class 700" will do.

 

[bramling]

You realise not everyone shares the same antipathy. "Class 700" will do.

If the current reliability issues aren't resolved pretty quickly, they're going to be called a lot worse than that. Thameslink users may be used to poor reliability and haven't known any different for the last 25 years so they probably think their unreliable and unpunctual service is normal for a railway. GN users are not used to this at all.

 

[D365]

It's the same deal with the recent frequent ECML failures at Retford. Railway infrastructure is being pushed right to its limits, which means the implementation of new kinds of innovation is crucial to keeping up with demand.

Besides, the crush-load capability of a Class 700 is immense. Not an ideal layout for the longer journeys, sure, but incidents of any kind are going to be so much easier to recover from. I know what type of unit I'd rather be seeing at peak hours, and even off-peaks should be tolerable with fixed twelve car trains.