Break of journey

[furlong]

Formal routes might be a complaint to the ORR to investigate it as a breach of the consumer regulations (if the effect was to persuade people to pay more than required, or there was a lack of professional diligence) or the DfT to report a franchise breach if the operator denied travel on a valid ticket (that the franchise agreement requires it to accept via the TSA).

 

[yorkie]

What options would be available to me now?

Log a complaint with Transport Focus: http://www.transportfocus.org.uk/contact/complaint/

Also report a consumer law breach to: contact.cct@orr.gsi.gov.uk (state "Virgin Trains breaching consumer law" or similar in your title). and make it clear you are requiring them to investigate a consumer law breach. I'd also point out that this is not the first time Virgin Trains have been breaching consumer law in this particular area and that an investigation is urgently needed.

Also report a franchise breach to the DfT. Try Rowan.smith@dft.gsi.gov.uk (State: "Virgin Trains breaching franchise commitment to honour Conditions of Travel" or similar in your title) and make it clear that you require an investigation leading to a Franchise Breach Notice to be issued. I'd also mention that Virgin Trains have been repeatedly caught breaching the NRCoT and TSA, so the issuing of a franchise breach notice is urgently needed.

Don't let any of them fob you off!

 

[bb21]

That answer is a lot of manure. It makes me angry that they can shamelessly lie like that (and yes, I believe they are lying and not merely mistaken):-x

It does make you wonder how much those in Virgin's commercial team actually know about their job, really.

Laughable.

 

[bb21]

Also report a franchise breach to the DfT. Try Rowan.smith@dft.gsi.gov.uk (State: "Virgin Trains breaching franchise commitment to honour Conditions of Travel" or similar in your title) and make it clear that you require an investigation leading to a Franchise Breach Notice to be issued. I'd also mention that Virgin Trains have been repeatedly caught breaching the NRCoT and TSA, so the issuing of a franchise breach notice is urgently needed.

When contacting the DfT, one needs to stick to the matter in hand. Anything else which one cannot supply any direct evidence of is not going to be taken seriously, and may not result in desirable responses. This is speaking from experience of directly dealing with the DfT.

What is needed to bring attention to the DfT multiple breaches is for all such occurrences to be brought to their attention by the affected customer, not by one person through hearsay off an internet forum.

In any case, I doubt this is going to achieve much by bringing to their attention isolated issues, but if that was the preferred approach, then stick to the exact issue and don't waffle. You are talking to a government department after all. To make this effective, it really needs a consumer body to take some collective action.

 

[Cantab26]

What options would be available to me now?

You stated back in February that, following the (erroneous) statements of Virgin Trains' staff, you travelled to Carlisle, stayed overnight and made new arrangements to travel back to Wigan the next day at your own expense.

If, in reliance on the incorrect information, you subsequently purchased a second ticket for the journey from Carlisle to Wigan, you may be able to bring a claim for damages in the County Court on the grounds of a contractual misrepresentation.

Crucially, it would not be necessary for you to prove that Virgin Trains was at fault in providing the false information. This is because an innocent misrepresentation is actionable.

Should you wish to explore this option further, there may be some merit in obtaining professional legal assistance, although it is unlikely that the cost of this would be recoverable due to the low value of the dispute.

That being said, if your case is made out on the facts and properly pleaded on the law, I can well envisage that Virgin Trains would be keen to settle the matter before it went anywhere near a judge. A suitably worded letter before action would normally do the trick (unless they decide to play silly beggars).

 

[ibendelow]

Thanks for the responses. I have received this :

Dear Mr Bendelow,

Thank you for your further correspondence. I am sorry that you were unhappy with my previous response. Thank you for giving me another opportunity to resolve your concerns.

I have referred your case once again to our Commericial Issues Team who have directed me to the National Rail Conditions of Travel. Point 13.4 states that if you make a journey by a route which is not valid with the ticket you are travelling on, you will be liable to pay an excess fare. As you would have been travelling on a peak time train with an off peak ticket you would have been liable for this excess charge.

You would not have been travelling under rthe National Rail restriction 3A but you would have been travelling under restriction 2C. This can be viewed by clicking on the following link http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/2c

As you were correctly advised by our staff members, I am unable to consider your application for compensation.

If you remain dissatisfied, I respectfully suggest you contact Transport Focus. Transport Focus (formerly the Rail Passenger's Council) is the consumer body set up under the Railways Act 1993 to protect rail users' interests.

The office is located at:-

Freepost RTEH-XAGE-BYKZ
Transport Focus
PO Box 5594
Southend on Sea
SS1 9PZ

e-mail: Info@transportfocus.org.uk
Tel: 0300 123 2350 *

* 03 numbers cost the same to call as geographic landline numbers (starting 01 and 02), even from a mobile phone
Yours sincerely


Now the 2a restriction does not appear on my ticket; 3a however, does. This therefore is what I should abide by, yes? Can they invoke 2a regardless?

 

[ibendelow]

Sorry that should be 2c

 

[Cantab26]

What a load of utter dross!

I have referred your case once again to our Commericial Issues Team who have directed me to the National Rail Conditions of Travel.

Well done, Virgin. Have a gold star.

Point 13.4 states that if you make a journey by a route which is not valid with the ticket you are travelling on, you will be liable to pay an excess fare. As you would have been travelling on a peak time train with an off peak ticket you would have been liable for this excess charge.

Complete drivel. Carlisle-Preston-Euston via the Trent Valley (and vice versa) is a mapped route. As such, Condition 13.4 is totally irrelevant.

As to the use of an Off-Peak ticket at a time when it is not valid, Condition 9.4 would theoretically apply.

However, the restriction code associated with the Carlisle to London Off-peak Return (route: any permitted) is 3A. The relevant restriction is:

"RETURN TRAVEL

Not valid on trains timed to
DEPART:

London Euston after 0429
until 0905"

As such, perfectly valid on any train departing Euston after 9.05am. It doesn't matter where that train happens to be going: one could catch a London Midland service to Milton Keynes if you wanted to.

Therefore, the only question is whether break of journey (including ending short cf. Condition 16.4) at Preston is permitted on the return portion of this ticket. From the General Conditions:

"BREAK OF JOURNEY
Break of journey is allowed on
the outward portion of
Off-Peak tickets UNLESS
OTHERWISE INDICATED BY A
RESTRICTION SHOWN AGAINST THE
TICKET'S VALIDITY CODE and
in all cases on the return
portion of Off-Peak return
tickets."

As such, break of journey is permitted when using the return portion, Conditions 9.4 and 16.5 are irrelevant and the passenger may end the journey short at Preston if desired.

You would not have been travelling under rthe National Rail restriction 3A but you would have been travelling under restriction 2C. This can be viewed by clicking on the following link http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/2c

Nonsense. The correct restriction code is 3A.

As you were correctly advised by our staff members, I am unable to consider your application for compensation.

Rubbish. Escalate the matter (with appropriate support from those here more knowledgeable than I of course) and consider a potential claim for the unnecessary expense of any additional tickets purchased.

 

[furlong]

As the evidence mounts, it makes it harder and harder to explain as an isolated mistake so I'd suggest just going straight for a letter before action now setting out the details of the claim and also forwarding that to the ORR and DfT with appropriate cover notes asking each to open separate investigations into the franchise holder.

 

[Cantab26]

As the evidence mounts, it makes it harder and harder to explain as an isolated mistake so I'd suggest just going straight for a letter before action now setting out the details of the claim and also forwarding that to the ORR and DfT with appropriate cover notes asking each to open separate investigations into the franchise holder.

With respect to a letter before action or potential litigation, if the original poster consents I would be happy to discuss the matter with my Principal Solicitor to see if he would be willing to take on this case on a 'pro bono' basis (i.e. without charge).

 

[Ed92uk]

This is shocking.

Does anybody here know of a non railway job where this is allowed to happen? VT were challenged and got it wrong. Customer service obviously didn't understand the issue so spoke to another department who got it wrong. Customer questioned decision again and VT got it wrong again

How high up the chain do you have to go before anybody understands the basics of train tickets

 

[yorkie]

This is shocking.

Does anybody here know of a non railway job where this is allowed to happen?

Nope. Virgin Trains clearly have a major problem with unknowledgeable individuals spouting utter drivel.

They need to be dealt with; they are breaking consumer law and the terms of their franchise agreement.

Am i surprised at Virgin? Nope,. They have been caught breaking the law before eg. http://www.virgintrains.org.uk/whysite.htm and many more examples

They likely have no-one high up with the rail fare knowledge we have.

 

[bb21]

I am in stitches, literally.

Everything I said about Virgin previously have been shown to be correct in this incident alone.

 

[AlterEgo]

I am completely unsurprised. Please do take this as far as possible. I'll be interested to hear the outcome!

What a joke!

 

[General Zod]

If anyone from VT is reading this thread then they really need to intervene and take some action as this incident is clearly showing high levels of incompetency within the company. It's become a total farce and VT are looking like a troop of clueless clowns.

Edit: According to BR Fares there is no CAR-EUS ticket on the system which carries the 2C restriction (for the return leg departing EUS) or which reverts to a 2C restriction depending on times traveled. From where and how did they come up with the 2C restriction ?

 

[Cantab26]

Edit: According to BR Fares there is no CAR-EUS ticket on the system which carries the 2C restriction (for the return leg departing EUS) or which reverts to a 2C restriction depending on times traveled. From where and how did they come up with the 2C restriction ?

2C applies to a Preston to London Off-peak Return [PRE-1072 SVR].

 

[yorkie]

2C applies to a Preston to London Off-peak Return [PRE-1072 SVR].

Indeed, which is utterly irrelevant as such a ticket was not held!

 

[Cantab26]

Indeed, which is utterly irrelevant as such a ticket was not held!

I quite agree that 2C is irrelevant to this particular passenger's journey.

However, it may actually be relevant to the internal query from Virgin's customer relations team, which I suspect was: "May a passenger use the 1730 [or other train] to travel from Euston to Preston on the return leg of an Off-peak Return?"

The question invites the erroneous inference that the ticket in question originates at Preston, rather than Carlisle. So the answer to the question asked is correct and relevant in a general sense. The problem is that it is based on an incorrect assumption and is wrong in a specific sense.

The question should of course be phrased something like this:

"May a passenger travelling on the return leg of a Carlisle to London Off-peak Return:

A. Depart Euston on the 1730 train; and
B. Finish his return journey short at Preston?"​

The answer is then 'yes' to both and there is no ambiguity about the ticket held or the journey being made.

This whole saga smacks of woolly thinking, I may say.

 

[Hadders]

This whole saga is not exactly difficult to understand and it is shocking that VTWC appears to be so incompetent. They clearly don't want the ticket to be valid to finish short but it is valid to do so and there is nothing they can do to stop this as the fare is regulated.

The issue arises not because fares are complicated but because VTWC have introduced more onerous restrictions on tickets since privatisation.

We know that the RDG read this forum - they really need to give some direction to VTWC on this.