Thameslink Programme, South Central & South Eastern area fleet cascades etc

[Tom C]

Services that currently terminate at Blackfrairs (theres five of them them not three) will arrive at the following times and continue onwards from March 09 as shown below -

08:16 Bedford to Bromley South
08:44 Bedford to Sevenoaks
10:26 Bedford to Elephant & Castle
10:56 Bedford to Elephant & Castle
11:26 Bedford to Elephant & Castle

I haven't got the headcodes at the moment (they are in my pigeon hole at Blackfriars) so can only use time they reach Blackfriars for now.

They will go empty from EPH to HNH reversing siding and head back north starting from EPH.

The idea is that all Loop services will terminate at Blackfriars once TLP is finished. So it might as well be Southern! Then again it would be a semi self contained service so it may have a chance of miniumal delays!

That seems sensible if the three which are going to turn at EPH actually go back into service. The two trains I mentioned to carry on to BTN or the Sutton loop are being used into Kent which seems fair enough. Presumably 1J85 (08:16) will replace 2B17 (08:22) but only as far as BMS and presumably will take up 2L65 (08:45 BMS-BFR) but will carry on to KTN. 1J62 (08:44) will presumably just carry on as per the path for 2B19 which currently leaves one minute earlier.

During the many blockades under Thameslink, the Sutton loop service was excellent whilst running into BFR, CTK or KCM and only suffered with rolling stock issues whilst the line was severed. Personally I am all for keeping the Sutton loop self contained however I would rather see the current situation reversed so that Southern provided the bulk of the service as far as BFR whilst FCC continued to offer a through service at peak times as obviously traffic north of the river has improved since the Thameslink service stopped going to GLD and SEV.

Even going back to the Thameslink days we were often told that South Central/Southern would get the bulk of the Sutton loop service back going back to the old LBG-VIC service via WCY which ran in the 80's however it has never materialised. You are right when you say that it may as well be Southern and I cannot see why it would even stay as part of the TL programme especially seeing as it could be accommodated with DC only stock such as 455's. Thameslink had the Sutton loop dumped on them and never really wanted it hense why it was so very basic. The only thing that Thameslink did was redevelop WSU station but on a downer they closed the ticket office (one of my first placements with Thameslink).

 

[Edvid]

66732 is dragging 377504 to Selhurst right now, according to deltic1964 of se-gen.

 

[mackenzie_blu]

Thats hopeful Edvid! Will see if I can find anything out in work.

377201 was on test north of the core yesterday. I saw it at West Hampstead but think it only went as far as Cricklewood as it came back fairly quickly on the slow lines.

 

[Edvid]

That reminds me - even though it's been stated I'm still wondering whether or not the joint-TOC services to Kentish Town will reverse ECS at Cricklewood sidings or not...

Earlier today I noticed the northernmost row of piers next to Blackfriars Bridge were being subject to some sort of works, and a new staircase* has been erected on the SW corner of Blackfriars station. Are the stairs for normal or just emergency use once they're connected?

Oh, and there appears to be a signalhead support structure on the southern half of platform 5. Pictures of 504 by Paul are attached.

[* Not my picture]

 

[mackenzie_blu]

Reversing will be done at kentish Town without the need to go north of there. The slow lines platforms will be used by the termating Sevenoaks services. During testing in the Core they had most of the test runs termating there in the middle of the day like they will from March without problems.

As for the new staircase this is the new entrance to platform 5. Over the weekend they should have started on 10 1m gaps on platform 5 to link these steps to the platform. Once you get down these steps you will hit a new gateline before walking under to Blackfrairs bridge to get back to street level again. this entrance is due to open in a couple of months and come july will be the main entrance to platform 5. You techinally will be able to get in via the new plafrom 4 entrance (where the WHsmith is now will become a staircase to get outside) but you'd have to get down 4 carriages worth of track and cross over a footbridge (thats yet to be installed roughly where the shelter is on platforms 3/4) to access platform 5. Not ideal or possible really in peak.

Put it this way, what you use at Blackfrairs now, wont be in use (expect the loo's and part of the platforms) come july there's that much changes going on.

As far as I know the new stuff at the end of south end of platform 5 is cable racks.

Nice to see 504 has been deliveried, now if we can find out a service date or least a staff tour of one of the new units (I really want one!).

 

[Edvid]

As for the new staircase this is the new entrance to platform 5. Over the weekend they should have started on 10 1m gaps on platform 5 to link these steps to the platform. Once you get down these steps you will hit a new gateline before walking under to Blackfrairs bridge to get back to street level again.

Will the gateline and stairs will be covered?

this entrance is due to open in a couple of months and come july will be the main entrance to platform 5.

I can see why they've installed 2 sets of stairs then. Though it appears the gateline might be rather small given the limited space available, and with the bridge due to be widened westwards surely the stairs will have to be moved during the station rebuild?

You techinally will be able to get in via the new plafrom 4 entrance (where the WHsmith is now will become a staircase to get outside) but you'd have to get down 4 carriages worth of track and cross over a footbridge (thats yet to be installed roughly where the shelter is on platforms 3/4) to access platform 5. Not ideal or possible really in peak.

It sounds like this new platform 4 entrance will be linked to the new permanent footbridge that'll take passengers over Queen Victoria Street and behind The Black Friar.
As for the footbridge linking platforms 4 and 5, it'll be taken down once the new roof is installed unless I'm mistaken. Come to think of it, the rebuilt station will have no inter-platform connections except at the platform extremities will it?

Put it this way, what you use at Blackfrairs now, wont be in use (expect the loo's and part of the platforms) come july there's that much changes going on.

Can't wait.

As far as I know the new stuff at the end of south end of platform 5 is cable racks.

Cable racks. Hmmm, I've seen them there but they're not what I'm thinking of - perhaps I phrased my question I little incorrectly. I didn't mean to imply it was spread along part of the platform, it's just located at a certain point on it.

You sure Network Rail aren't installing something like a banner repeater there? I could be wrong, but I can't imagine what else it might be for.

 

[mackenzie_blu]

The new small gateline will be covered along with a heated 'box' for RPI's. The staircase, will as I understand it be uncovered. I also believe that the stairs will be one way ie on up and one down as one staircase for both directions when busy would be dangerous especially when its the only real way in and out. Just point out that from March till July Blackfriars will have three gatelines.

As for the westward direction extention, the plan is go south first. Where plaforms 4/5 are now will become the termaiting platforms. The platfrom extensions will be done by late this year (not sure but sept/oct rings a bell). Bare in mind what is currently platforms 4/5 will only be 8 car long come 2011 so they will start at the south side of the river crossing. This will lead to some extra space where this tempoary exit on platform 5 is being built. Hope I've explained that correctly.

as far as I know it the 'WHsmith' exit will be some fairly steep steps down to the street level. Ive not heard of a new bridge to be honest. I know all the current subways are going to be rebuilt along with the road junction which will be outside the new main entrance.

The footbridge thats going in is temporary untill new subway on the north bank is built. Although the guy briefing me on this didn't have a clue. Going from images released and what Ive seen in plans its not staying. That said I havent yet seen the final plans but intend to soon!

As for platform 5, apart from a 10mins visit I haven't been there this week so they may have installed something Ive not been briefed about as its changing so quickly. I will find out however next week when Im working there. Im curious now!

 

[Edvid]

The new small gateline will be covered along with a heated 'box' for RPI's. The staircase, will as I understand it be uncovered. I also believe that the stairs will be one way ie on up and one down as one staircase for both directions when busy would be dangerous especially when its the only real way in and out. Just point out that from March till July Blackfriars will have three gatelines.

OK. Though my concern is post-July...

As for the westward direction extention, the plan is go south first. Where plaforms 4/5 are now will become the termaiting platforms. The platfrom extensions will be done by late this year (not sure but sept/oct rings a bell). Bare in mind what is currently platforms 4/5 will only be 8 car long come 2011 so they will start at the south side of the river crossing. This will lead to some extra space where this tempoary exit on platform 5 is being built. Hope I've explained that correctly.

I'm confused here...I thought all 4 platforms come 2011 would be 12 cars long (see page 84 of this October 2005 PDF). The through platforms obviously will be, but why not the bays? After all there will be times when the cross-London service is screwed and a 12-car formation (NGEMU or otherwise) needs to reverse there.

as far as I know it the 'WHsmith' exit will be some fairly steep steps down to the street level. Ive not heard of a new bridge to be honest.

On pade 84 of the same PDF, the new footbridge I speak of is just west of the railway bridge on the north end of Blackfriars.

 

[mackenzie_blu]

Well I think they are hoping for the building work to put people off using Blackfriars. After all once the Tube station closes there's very little difference between using Blackfriars and City Thameslink.

The new bay platforms are planned to be 8 cars as the loop platforms are not worth the money to extend. Interesting PDF, Im gonna check out our plans in work but they keep changing a few bits. Will let you know what I find.

As for the bridge, Ive not seen/noticed that before. Will look into that as well then.

 

[Edvid]

Points taken. Though I wouldn't be surprised if a few passengers from south of Central London who work within walking distance of City Thameslink but stick with Blackfriars still complain about not getting seats even when FCC get all 109 units sometime this year.

Almost forgot - when are Network Rail extending the OHLE to City Thameslink?

 

[mackenzie_blu]

Points taken. Though I wouldn't be surprised if a few passengers from south of Central London who work within walking distance of City Thameslink but stick with Blackfriars still complain about not getting seats even when FCC get all 109 units sometime this year.

Almost forgot - when are Network Rail extending the OHLE to City Thameslink?

To be fair some will always complain. The amount who moan at a minute delay!

As for OHLE at City, speaking to an NR manager there Im expecting to see it there by the end of the summer.

 

[Edvid]

Considering the very recent renewal of a few OHLE components in the Farringdon area, they're obviously in a hurry to extend it southwards aren't they? Took me a split-second to recall the Moorgate branch remains open for ECS movements until December.

It also appears that engineering works in the Thameslink core have been cancelled on March 1/7/8 (according to the FCC website)...

 

[Julian G]

You won't believe this!

UKEMUGRP
377501 and 377504 are going back to Derby for the following reasons 377501 needs the computer system to be sorted does 250 miles then goes no further and 377504 has a cracked chassis.

Blimey! I guess this might affect the Thameslink Thingy

 

[Pumbaa]

Jesus - 504 sounds a little serious...

 

[Tom C]

This is looking bleak for FCC

The new timetable should almost be ready for the presses and we have no extra units!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
New timetable is available at http://www.firstcapitalconnect.co.uk/content/doc/cms/TLTTforWebsanscovers.pdf

Still quite hard to fathom. Also trains via Beckenham Junction and the trains through to Ashford and Gillingham are not shown in full, only where they stop at stations served by either Sevenoaks or Sutton trains. They say its due to the fact that trains are SE south of Blackfriars yet they still show a full Sevenoaks service

 

[class377man]

You won't believe this!


Blimey! I guess this might affect the Thameslink Thingy

wow!

On a sidenote (which has probably already been mentioned and I've missed it), why are there no 502 or 503?

 

[mackenzie_blu]

Oh this is bad indeed. We've been adise that the new timetable will be out on monday! Maybe not to the public but its being deliveried to stations by monday. I will grab a copy as Im on eariles that well (hopefully) and report back.

As for the 377/5's, ****. They better have a good back up plan as this means no trains if it turns out to be true. wondered why they hadn't come out to play tonight.

**edit**

Hmmm interesting timetable and does prove me right on the issue of the 3 tables (just like the GN side). Will check out if the final copy is the same on monday.

Trains aren't always deliveried in number order hence 502 & 503 not being around just yet. Likely being that as 504 was being finished the bits they were in short supply of came in and they managed to complete a full train.

 

[Edvid]

Goodness knows how long it'll now be until 501/504 return and/or the remaining 377/5s are dispatched.

That said, a Southern driver on RailwayScene claims that the 350s will definitely take over the NSR WLL workings on Friday 13 March (Woooo!) so the 377/2s may yet sweeten the pill. Of course, further spanners could still be thrown into the works (a cracked chassis in a new unit for goodness sake...talk about shoddy workmanship!)

Anyway, I have attached a few pictures taken over the past week. (None of 201 though, which did the ECS runs in the core today.)

[N.B. mackenzie_blu, that 'signalhead structure' I noticed is in pics 60 and 64. It's been there longer than I thought and appears to be part of the bridge itself, so I may have no idea what it's for although at the bottom there are a couple of lights for maritime/nautical navigation (whatever the correct term is).]

 

[mackenzie_blu]

I had a look on platform 5 today and realised what you meant. Its an old post that Im not 100% sure what it was to do with.

To be honest I could have taken a picture of 201 as it did its last run as I was in the Control Room at Blackfriars. Did get the running of P" so will post it when I get the chance. also got some timings of the training runs of the Sevenoaks service.

**Edit**

5B93 14:07 Sevenoaks to Blackfriars

Sevenoaks Down Siding 14:07
Sevenoaks 14:09
Otford Jn 14:19
Swanley 14:29
St Mary Cray Jn 14:33
Bickley Jn 14:34
Shortlands Jn 14:41
Bellingham 14:48
Nunhead 14:53
Crofton Road Jn 14:57
Loughborough Jn 15:00
Blackfriars 15:17

5A95 16:50 Swanley to Smithfield C.H.S

Swanley 16:50
St Mary Cray Jn 16:54
Bickley Jn 16:55
Bromley South (no time given)
Shortlands Jn 16:58
Beckenham Junction 17:00
Herne Hill 17:06
Loughborough Junction 17:09
Blackfriars 17:16
Smithfields C H S 17:20

 

[paul1609]

Goodness knows how long it'll now be until 501/504 return and/or the remaining 377/5s are dispatched.

That said, a Southern driver on RailwayScene claims that the 350s will definitely take over the NSR WLL workings on Friday 13 March (Woooo!) so the 377/2s may yet sweeten the pill. Of course, further spanners could still be thrown into the works (a cracked chassis in a new unit for goodness sake...talk about shoddy workmanship!)

.]

The 350 plan has defiantly been considered but apparently as the 350s dont have retractable shoe gear they are not actually cleared to run on the WCML with the gear fitted! so unless all the piles of ballast can be cleared out of the way by March!!. There has also been a plan for the recently out of use 508s to be used on some coastway services (seaford ?) and for the remaining 442s to be used to replace 377s on the Brighton Express services.

Even so the crew training issues seem insurmountable to me at this late date.

 

[Edvid]

I agree that driver/crew training and familiarisation is the main sticking point. However, there is a 350/1 en-route to Selhurst from Northampton as I type this (following limited gen from southernrailway):

5Z01 left Northampton right-time
6' early through Hanslope Junction
4' early through Willesden West London
Due at:
Clapham Junction 15+24
Balham 15+29
Selhurst depot 15+41

Fitter/traincrew familiarisation should begin a few days later. On another subject, the WHSmith shop at Blackfriars closed today, which took me by surprise because (I think) it was still open yesterday and there was no indication of exactly when it would close.

 

[mackenzie_blu]

I agree that driver/crew training and familiarisation is the main sticking point. However, there is a 350/1 en-route to Selhurst from Northampton as I type this (following limited gen from southernrailway):

5Z01 left Northampton right-time
6' early through Hanslope Junction
4' early through Willesden West London
Due at:
Clapham Junction 15+24
Balham 15+29
Selhurst depot 15+41

Fitter/traincrew familiarisation should begin a few days later. On another subject, the WHSmith shop at Blackfriars closed today, which took me by surprise because (I think) it was still open yesterday and there was no indication of exactly when it would close.

It wasn't open when I came in yesterday and in fact there was only the serving area left there. All tennats are to go before the end of the week. In fact only three remain now. To late now to turn back on Blackfriars works.

377201 was on test today but has some major issues as it failed to gain DC power while on 5Z21 and was sent to Moorgate to reverse then sent to Cricklewood to investigate. All seems to have been fixed as it went through Blackfriars around 1500 southbound on service 5Z25 and seemed to be fine displaying the Electrostar on the ides but not front.

 

[paul1609]

My contact reckons that if 350s do take over the WLL workings with SN that will only free 4 X 377/2s for loan to FCC.

 

[mackenzie_blu]

My contact reckons that if 350s do take over the WLL workings with SN that will only free 4 X 377/2s for loan to FCC.

Thats intersting as we need a min of 5 377 for the new timetable (Ive heard). With the 2 we have (if they are still in working order) that would make enough plus a spare.

 

[Pumbaa]

Alternatively, FCC could just do what LM are doing, and cancelling trains left right and centre, and sometimes just for kicks!

 

[Edvid]

For kicks? Surely LM aren't that bad...are they?

Regarding the 350/1s Paul, I understand that only 4 diagrams are required for the NSR WLL service so I can see why that wouldn't be enough for all 15 to be cascaded. That said, 4 of the non-GEx 442s have been on 'warming runs' recently (one of which is currently at Wolverton) so it's a matter of (scarce!) time before further 377/2s are backfilled.

As for 501/504...they're currently doing their usual noctural runs according to I.K. I don't know about you, but it doesn't sound like they've been back to Derby, or even experienced the aforementioned computer/chassis issues.

 

[mackenzie_blu]

For kicks? Surely LM aren't that bad...are they?

Regarding the 350/1s Paul, I understand that only 4 diagrams are required for the NSR WLL service so I can see why that wouldn't be enough for all 15 to be cascaded. That said, 4 of the non-GEx 442s have been on 'warming runs' recently (one of which is currently at Wolverton) so it's a matter of (scarce!) time before further 377/2s are backfilled.

As for 501/504...they're currently doing their usual noctural runs according to I.K. I don't know about you, but it doesn't sound like they've been back to Derby, or even experienced the aforementioned computer/chassis issues.

Hmmmm seems like the issues over the 377/5 isnt that bad. Will have a look whats on test on the core today. Maybe the computer issue was fixed with a patch or work around?

Interesting so see a 350/1 tho going through Clapham Junction. Maybe borrowing a few trains here and there will create what FCC needs? after all thats what the xmas eve meeting was all about.

 

[paul1609]

For kicks? Surely LM aren't that bad...are they?

Regarding the 350/1s Paul, I understand that only 4 diagrams are required for the NSR WLL service so I can see why that wouldn't be enough for all 15 to be cascaded. That said, 4 of the non-GEx 442s have been on 'warming runs' recently (one of which is currently at Wolverton) so it's a matter of (scarce!) time before further 377/2s are backfilled.

As for 501/504...they're currently doing their usual noctural runs according to I.K. I don't know about you, but it doesn't sound like they've been back to Derby, or even experienced the aforementioned computer/chassis issues.

I think you'll find the extra 442s are because of Southerns current poor reliability:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/7909542.stm
The only extra services they could be used on would be the Brighton Express which currently operates DOO so there are no guards for 442s!
I reckon if the news of stock being loaned to other franchises leaks in to the general domain there will be riots!

 

[westcoaster]

said 350/1 seen sat next to the new shed a selhurst today, strange seeing the lm livery south of the river.

 

[mackenzie_blu]

A 377/2 was on test today Im told tho I dont have a unit number for you.

Once again tonight see a 377/5 doing it runs on the BML

Bridge at Farringdon images can be found here

As the the bridge to the west of the tracks at Blackfriars, Ive been doing some digging for this and came across what it is. It is not a customer bridge at all. Its actually an access bridge from Blackfriars station to what is going to be the biggest DC substation in the UK according to briefings the contractors are doing. Also on that map you showed it had doors which made me wonder as cutomer arae won't have doors. Too see what I mean here's an picture of the basic struture going up now.

And as for news of a stock move from Southern to FCC, we can only hope!