Wales & Borders Franchise Consultation

[Bletchleyite]

It may well be that there's no working code for that service.

It would surprise me if there wasn't a code for "all stations to Pwllheli".

Or more likely, they don't switch it on because the 158 system still often struggles with request stops.

It's on at other times of day. I think there's an element of "it's the last train with hardly anyone on it, so why bother"? But I find that approach rather sloppy.

 

[gareth950]

I think it gives you a reservation if you are booking anything other than a advance purchase ticket.
Also you often have to find a good booking clerk as some will straight out refuse to reserve you a seat because it is an advance purchase ticket or will try and get a reservation on their system by selecting an advance ticket which surprise surprise does not give you a seat.
Sam

Is ATW the only TOC to NOT issue seat reservations with Advances? I always thought seat reservations with Advances were compulsory, they are with every other TOC I've ever travelled with.

 

[Bungle965]

Is ATW the only TOC to NOT issue seat reservations with Advances? I always thought seat reservations with Advances were compulsory, they are with every other TOC I've ever travelled with.

No plenty of other companies do it those that don`t have seat reservations on their services such as Northern, London Midland however ScotRail is probably the closest to what you mean with when they sell advances it does not automatically come with a seat reservation,reservations are available however.

I believe that there is a quota system in place for the ones that don`t do seat reservations however that is beyond my area of knowledge.
Sam

 

[Bletchleyite]

Is ATW the only TOC to NOT issue seat reservations with Advances? I always thought seat reservations with Advances were compulsory, they are with every other TOC I've ever travelled with.

It's an utterly ludicrous policy. I don't mind the idea of reservations being optional and chargeable, but just not offering them online for Advances is really silly.

 

[Llanigraham]

Shrewsbury Station, England

So what?

 

[Llanigraham]

Is ATW the only TOC to NOT issue seat reservations with Advances? I always thought seat reservations with Advances were compulsory, they are with every other TOC I've ever travelled with.

I regularly buy advances that include Virgin from Birmingham to Euston (and return) and don't have to get a reservation, and from Newport to Paddington likewise. (and return)

 

[craigybagel]

It's an utterly ludicrous policy. I don't mind the idea of reservations being optional and chargeable, but just not offering them online for Advances is really silly.

I believe it was because too many seats were getting reserved leaving nothing left on the train for walk up passengers. Even with the current very restrictive policy you still often end up with 50% or more of the train reserved if it's a 2 car service. Hopefully the new franchise will see some much needed extra capacity and they'll be able to reintroduce online reservations.

Is ATW the only TOC to NOT issue seat reservations with Advances? I always thought seat reservations with Advances were compulsory, they are with every other TOC I've ever travelled with.

Reservation coupons are issued; they are necessary to prove which train the passenger is booked on. They just have the seat assignment marked with stars instead of numbers

It would surprise me if there wasn't a code for "all stations to Pwllheli".



It's on at other times of day. I think there's an element of "it's the last train with hardly anyone on it, so why bother"? But I find that approach rather sloppy.

I suspect it's more down to "not worth the hassle". It requires only 7 button pushes to switch it on if it's working so it's not likely laziness getting in the way - it's more likely easier on a quiet train to do announcements manually and not have to worry about the issues the system has with request stops - especially when at that time of night I'd expect the guard to have plenty of time to speak to each passenger individually and make sure they get off at the right stop.

 

[craigybagel]

I took one earlier this week from Wolverhampton to Holyhead where it failed to mention any of the request stops at all.

Sam

If the system is working correctly, it'll only mention request stops on departure from the previous compulsory stop ( so Llandudno Junction or Bangor in the case of the Holyhead service).

 

[Bungle965]

If the system is working correctly, it'll only mention request stops on departure from the previous compulsory stop ( so Llandudno Junction or Bangor in the case of the Holyhead service).

Nope it just went straight from the last stop (Bangor) to Holyhead which when we heard it caused the guard to announce to the carriage that it was wrong and would be turning it off shortly
Sam

 

[craigybagel]

Nope it just went straight from the last stop (Bangor) to Holyhead which when we heard it caused the guard to announce to the carriage that it was wrong and would be turning it off shortly
Sam

Like I said, if it's working correctly

 

[PHILIPE]

If the display on the front of a 158 cannot show only the terminus then the system was very poorly specified, because that display is so small it should never try to display anything else in my opinion. At most it should toggle between "Fishguard Harbour", "Porthladd Abergwaun" and "The Fishguard Flyer"* A list of calling points on such a small display is never going to work.

* although I'm not sure if it's worth making that a named train, especially since it is reduced to one direction only from the May Timetable if Real Time Trains is correct (I fact ATW would seem to be in breach of their franchise agreement in May, with the other boat train terminating at Carmarthen with no London connection, whereas the franchise agreement says Cardiff or Swansea and must connect to/from London and Reading).

This situation has arisen due to circumstances outside the control of the Railway and has been created wholly by Stena re-timing their ferries. GWR are involved regarding their services forward from Swansea but they have no obligation to do anything different, because their part in this is unchanged. There is, as far as I can, no alternative for ATW to do anything different than what they have done and would, I think, have requested the DFT for a derogation in this case.

 

[berneyarms]

This situation has arisen due to circumstances outside the control of the Railway and has been created wholly by Stena re-timing their ferries. GWR are involved regarding their services forward from Swansea but they have no obligation to do anything different, because their part in this is unchanged. There is, as far as I can, no alternative for ATW to do anything different than what they have done and would, I think, have requested the DFT for a derogation in this case.

While I think a connection to London is out of the question given the times, I don't think that it would be unreasonable to expect the connecting train to operate to Swansea by replacing the Pembroke Dock-Swansea train that runs ahead of it.

And before you say it - I know about the issues of staff rosters etc.

But there is generally a way around things like this.

Running to Carmarthen only is useless for ship traffic to be honest.

 

[Rhydgaled]

This situation has arisen due to circumstances outside the control of the Railway and has been created wholly by Stena re-timing their ferries. GWR are involved regarding their services forward from Swansea but they have no obligation to do anything different, because their part in this is unchanged. There is, as far as I can, no alternative for ATW to do anything different than what they have done and would, I think, have requested the DFT for a derogation in this case.

While I agree that there is no GWR service they could reasonablly connect with, the service really should run through to at least Swansea, prefrably Cardiff. The ATW franchise agreement also reads like actual through running to London by ATW would be an option, though clearly not very practical. Another impact of Stena's change is that the Clarbeston Road - Fishguard service that connects out of the 17:39 ex-Cardiff is withdrawn; I wonder if that violates the contract for five additional trains to Fishguard since 2011 (which I cannot find published online), since ATW will now only be providing four additional trains over and above the two required in the original 2003 franchise agreement.

 

[PHILIPE]

While I agree that there is no GWR service they could reasonablly connect with, the service really should run through to at least Swansea, prefrably Cardiff. The ATW franchise agreement also reads like actual through running to London by ATW would be an option, though clearly not very practical. Another impact of Stena's change is that the Clarbeston Road - Fishguard service that connects out of the 17:39 ex-Cardiff is withdrawn; I wonder if that violates the contract for five additional trains to Fishguard since 2011 (which I cannot find published online), since ATW will now only be providing four additional trains over and above the two required in the original 2003 franchise agreement.

Surely you know by now ATW won't do anything over and above their franchise spec unless somebody else offers to pay for it. They no doubt have got derogation because of circumstances forced on them and if they were having to do something additional it would no doubt increase traincrew costs.

 

[berneyarms]

While I agree that there is no GWR service they could reasonablly connect with, the service really should run through to at least Swansea, prefrably Cardiff. The ATW franchise agreement also reads like actual through running to London by ATW would be an option, though clearly not very practical. Another impact of Stena's change is that the Clarbeston Road - Fishguard service that connects out of the 17:39 ex-Cardiff is withdrawn; I wonder if that violates the contract for five additional trains to Fishguard since 2011 (which I cannot find published online), since ATW will now only be providing four additional trains over and above the two required in the original 2003 franchise agreement.

I think perhaps talking of contract violations is going a tad OTT?

ATW aren't responsible for the changes to the shipping schedule. They had to respond to the changes Stena have made.

With the exception of the night train from Fishguard which should be going to Swansea, they've been reasonably imaginative in their connections.

 

[Rhydgaled]

Surely you know by now ATW won't do anything over and above their franchise spec unless somebody else offers to pay for it.

Yes, I know that; but it this case it appears they may be doing less than they are contracted to. Six trains to/from Fishguard vice 7 and a boat train to Carmarthen vice Swansea or Cardiff (and depending on how the franchise agreement is interpreted, they might even be 'supposed' to run that service to London given there isn't a suitable GWR service.

 

[berneyarms]

Let's be honest one of those trains (the nighttime boat train) was useless for locals as it was ludicrously late.

The new schedule at least has trains at meaningful times for locals as well as boat traffic.

Talk of a London train at that hour is daft frankly. It would arrive there in the middle of the night - not much use to anyone.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

ATW aren't responsible for the changes to the shipping schedule. They had to respond to the changes Stena have made.
With the exception of the night train from Fishguard which should be going to Swansea, they've been reasonably imaginative in their connections.

There's no train at all from Holyhead connecting with the late arrivals from Dublin (2345/0020), and this is a much busier route than Fishguard.
No trains between 2032 and 0514.

 

[berneyarms]

There's no train at all from Holyhead connecting with the late arrivals from Dublin (2345/0020), and this is a much busier route than Fishguard.
No trains between 2032 and 0514.

While I think there would be a market for a train to Swansea or at a stretch Cardiff, going beyond that I'd suggest is pointless given the numbers.

The 02:15 ferry from Dublin connects into the 06:55 VT service.

The reality is that most people fly from Ireland these days since Ryanair opened the market up. The numbers are tiny.

Frankly who in their right mind would want to arrive into London at 03:00?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

The reality is that most people fly from Ireland these days since Ryanair opened the market up. The numbers are tiny.

If the rail numbers are tiny, Fishguard will get about 1/4 of those (Holyhead is 3/4).
From Rosslare, I think more people use Pembroke than Fishguard (from DfT stats).
https://www.gov.uk/government/stati...k-international-sea-passengers#table-spas0107

 

[northwichcat]

Frankly who in their right mind would want to arrive into London at 03:00?

The overnight Eurolines Coaches to London and to Leeds via Liverpool and Manchester can get fully booked. Obviously spending a few hours extra on a coach is preferable to arriving somewhere in the middle of the night or waiting around at Chester/Crewe station for the 1st train.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I believe it was because too many seats were getting reserved leaving nothing left on the train for walk up passengers. Even with the current very restrictive policy you still often end up with 50% or more of the train reserved if it's a 2 car service. Hopefully the new franchise will see some much needed extra capacity and they'll be able to reintroduce online reservations.

That says to me they are selling too many Advances and deliberately encouraging passengers onto overcrowded trains. That needs to stop.

 

[berneyarms]

The overnight Eurolines Coaches from to London and to Leeds via Liverpool and Manchester can get fully booked. Obviously spending a few hours extra on a coach is preferable to arriving somewhere in the middle of the night or waiting around at Chester/Crewe station for the 1st train.

In the context of the overall market between Ireland and the U.K. that is still tiny.

I can remember watching the St Columba leaving Dún Laoghaire for Holyhead most nights packed to the gills with foot passengers.

Those days are gone.

 

[berneyarms]

If the rail numbers are tiny, Fishguard will get about 1/4 of those (Holyhead is 3/4).
From Rosslare, I think more people use Pembroke than Fishguard (from DfT stats).
https://www.gov.uk/government/stati...k-international-sea-passengers#table-spas0107

The Eurolines coach goes through Pembroke - that I'd imagine accounts for virtually all the foot traffic on that route.

 

[craigybagel]

The Eurolines coach goes through Pembroke - that I'd imagine accounts for virtually all the foot traffic on that route.

Unless things have changed, on the Rosslare route the Eurolines passengers aren't foot passengers - the bus travels on the ferry with them. At least, that's how it was always done when it used to go via Fishguard a few years ago.

 

[Rhydgaled]

Let's be honest one of those trains (the nighttime boat train) was useless for locals as it was ludicrously late.

Yes, it was useless for locals, but the fact is that the new times will not have five local services in addition to the two boat trains specified in the franchise agreement. Whether the contract for the 'five extra trains' actually specifies a total of 7 a day I don't know because I haven't seen that contract.

The new schedule at least has trains at meaningful times for locals as well as boat traffic.

The 20:53 to Carmarthen (with connection to Swansea) in the current timetable is surely more useful than 22:14 to Carmarthen. The current evening Clarbeston Road - Fishguard also manages to get to FGW in time (although barely) for the last bus to anywhere, although it is the 'Sardine Express' from Cardiff.

Talk of a London train at that hour is daft frankly. It would arrive there in the middle of the night - not much use to anyone.

It would probably arrive into London at about 4am, the same time the 01:50 reaches Swansea, which you could perhaps argue is just as useless. I agree though, it isn't practical. I wonder if, overall, Stena's changes will help or hurt rail+sail usage.

 

[craigybagel]

It would probably arrive into London at about 4am, the same time the 01:50 reaches Swansea, which you could perhaps argue is just as useless. I agree though, it isn't practical.

But the 01:50 connects into the 03:59 Swansea - Paddington, which I'm sure is what the vast majority of people will be doing.

I wonder if, overall, Stena's changes will help or hurt rail+sail usage.

To be honest, I doubt they care very much. Freight is where the money is these days - with passengers being very much a secondary interest - and even then, it's the passengers with vehicles they'll be interested in. The changes will probably hurt rail+sail, but overall that won't be what makes or breaks the route.

Allegedly, Rosslare-Fishguard has been loss making for Stena Line for years, and with one of the oldest ferries in their fleet which can't go on for ever a decision will need to be made on the routes long term future soon. Hopefully this radical departure from the traditional mailboat times (and away from the times of the competing Pembroke service) will be enough to secure the future of the route.

 

[Chester1]

In the context of the overall market between Ireland and the U.K. that is still tiny.

I can remember watching the St Columba leaving Dún Laoghaire for Holyhead most nights packed to the gills with foot passengers.

Those days are gone.

The Halton Curve reopening will probably caused a further reduction by making it quicker to access Liverpool Airport from North Wales. If you live along the coast its quicker to take the ferry from Holyhead than fly from Liverpool or Manchester airports. Apart from Gwynedd and Anglesey the ferry will have no area were it is the fastest option once Chester to Liverpool South Parkway has a regular service taking 20-25 minutes. I agree about having a all stops Holyhead to Llandudno Junction service every two hours and also I would cut back all ICWC and W&B express services to Bangor if they don't match a ferry arrival or departure.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

once Chester to Liverpool South Parkway has a regular service taking 20-25 minutes.

Speke is a hopeless airport to get to from Chester/North Wales, and it will still be more like 35 minutes Chester to Parkway (and another half hour on the bus).
You might as well go to Manchester for (usually) more flights and better connections.

 

[gareth950]

That says to me they are selling too many Advances and deliberately encouraging passengers onto overcrowded trains. That needs to stop.

My thoughts exactly. Isn't the whole point of Advances to fill up spare seats cheaply? If ATW know that they don't have any spare capacity on certain services then they need to stop selling Advances for these trains.

The policy makes no sense at all - you can reserve a seat on a specific service with an off-peak or anytime ticket where there's a chance the passenger will travel on another service so the reservation will be unfilled, yet with an Advance where you know you must be on a specific service you can't automatically reserve a seat. ATW don't widely advertise the fact you can try to book an Advance reservation at a ticket office so most people won't bother to.