Wales & Borders Franchise Consultation

[krus_aragon]

They're lucky not to get Heol Rhydychen (Oxford Road), or Fictoria, both of which I've seen in ATW timetables.
Liverpool can look forward to seeing Lerpwl on the front!

Another baffling direction is Newid yng Nghaer (change at Chester).

It could be worse: we could go all mock-Victorian on you and start calling it Caerllion Fawr again!

 

[Gareth Marston]

Well, that would bu**er Leominster, then ! Thanks !

How would having 3 trains every 2 hours mess Leominster up? Its a rural town of just over 10K in population not in the commuting zone of any major city. 25 trains a day sounds pretty damn good to me. That's more than I'm hoping for my home town which is bigger than Leominster!

The Marches have two major city's at the North end (Liverpool and Manchester) and two at the south end (Bristol and Cardiff). Currently we fail to serve one in the North (Liverpool) and one in the south (Bristol). Its always going to be a compromise because of the nature of the route.

The major long distance traffic generators all get 2 tph linking them in my proposal Crewe-Shrewsbury-Ludlow-Hereford.
Abergavenny has 3 every 2 hours north but 7 every two hours south (as its commuting zone from Cardiff, Bristol).
Nantwich-Whitchurch-Leominster get 3 every two hours.
Craven Arms and Church Stretton get 1 tph into Shrewsbury.
The local stations between Crewe and Shrewbsury get 0.5 tph. Theirs probably a case for stopping the Liverpool trains at Wem so it has 1tph.
The 3/4 North Wales to South Wales trains should stop Shrewsbury-Hereford-Cwmbran only.

The best solution frequency wise woudl be to have 1 tph fast Manchester to Cardiff and 1 tph all stations Crewe-Hereford etc and say everybody change no through trains.

 

[Rhydgaled]

My nearest station (being in West Wales) is Haverfordwest, but i'm still surprised that we still have a mainline Milford Haven to Piccadilly train every 2 hours. I would've though that by now it would have changed so that Milford Haven would be serviced similar to how Pembroke Dock currently is, with the Piccadilly route starting either in Carmarthen or Swansea.

On a personal note, I take the train fairly regularly and I travel the full distance but despite that convenience, even I can see that the West Wales lines could probably be better managed than it currently is. There is certainly no need for 3-unit trains to be servicing all the way through, especially as it acts as a stopper train almost, having to stop at the likes of Clunderwen, Clarbeston Road, Ferryside, Whitland, Kidwelly etc.

The 3-car trains are actually needed occasionally, I remember one morning (a Saturday I think) when I boarded at Haverfordwest. There were a few already on but the numbers getting on a HVF came close to filling the train. I think the Pembrokeshire Rail Travellers Association have said the Milford Haven branch either needs 3 coaches or an hourly 2-car service. The service is illogical though; given that Swansea makes getting anyway east of there take forever. Also east of Swansea 3 coaches is sometimes not enough and 2 coaches is almost never enough, whereas it normally is enough in the west.

We need an additional passing loop between Whitland and Tenby (can't remember exactly where) to allow a roughly half-hourly pattern Swansea-Carmarthen-Whitland with a train every two hours for each of MFH, FGH and PMD (the other terminating at Carmarthen, perhaps extended to Tenby in summer). The MFH and FGH trains would omit Kidwelly and Ferryside, the others all stations. Add an hourly CDF-Carmarthen express on top of that (to MFH every 2hrs) to improve links east of Swansea and give the Milford branch a roughly hourly service.

 

[northwichcat]

They're lucky not to get Heol Rhydychen (Oxford Road), or Fictoria, both of which I've seen in ATW timetables.
Liverpool can look forward to seeing Lerpwl on the front!

Another baffling direction is Newid yng Nghaer (change at Chester).

Imagine if they impose foreign language announcements on Manchester Airport services to bring them in line with Heathrow and Gatwick Airport services.

Interestingly the number of people who speak Urdu as their first language in the city of Manchester alone is 32,000. Apparently 21.7% of Welsh residents speak Welsh, as the combined population of all towns on the North Wales coast line is under 145,000 statistically a Manchester to Holyhead/Llandudno service is more likely to carry an Urdu speaker than a Welsh speaker!

 

[Envoy]

It is very confusing for the many people that the destinations boards and train fronts keeping blinking between English and Welsh. I now see that the British Transport Police in Wales have only the Welsh word for Police on their uniform in big letters front & back. Goodness knows how most people are going to know who they are? At least in many countries, the word POLICE is written on uniforms - where it is completely different from the English version. Looks like the use of English is going to be banned in Wales! Enough to scare off inward investors moving to Wales?

PS. If you try typing in Welsh versions for English words that are similar to English, the spelling correctors change them to the English version.

 

[northwichcat]

It is very confusing for the many people that the destinations boards and train fronts keeping blinking between English and Welsh. I now see that the British Transport Police in Wales have only the Welsh word for Police on their uniform in big letters front & back. Goodness knows how most people are going to know who they are? At least in many countries, the word POLICE is written on uniforms - where it is completely different from the English version. Looks like the use of English is going to be banned in Wales! Enough to scare off inward investors moving to Wales?

They seem to be going the way of the Quebec provenience in Canada. However, the difference is there more people speak French as their first language than English and in some areas anything more than a few basic phrases in English wouldn't be understood. Also unlike Quebec, Wales can't trade with other Welsh language nations because there aren't any - they obviously think the small group of Welsh speakers in Argentina can be their main trading partner!

I wonder if ATW could be breaching the Equalities Act with the constant changing of the destination display from English to Welsh. It must be very hard for some dyslexic people to read and they have to be allowed for in the same way as the blind or wheelchair bound passengers. If there were two separate displays then it might be a different matter.

 

[CardiffKid]

It must be very hard for some dyslexic people to read .

Yes it is.

 

[berneyarms]

It is very confusing for the many people that the destinations boards and train fronts keeping blinking between English and Welsh. I now see that the British Transport Police in Wales have only the Welsh word for Police on their uniform in big letters front & back. Goodness knows how most people are going to know who they are? At least in many countries, the word POLICE is written on uniforms - where it is completely different from the English version. Looks like the use of English is going to be banned in Wales! Enough to scare off inward investors moving to Wales?

PS. If you try typing in Welsh versions for English words that are similar to English, the spelling correctors change them to the English version.

Well people manage to figure out that GARDA means policeman here in Ireland, despite most people not speaking Irish as their first language. The Irish police do not have the word "police" anywhere on their uniforms and people manage to identify them easily enough.

No different in Wales I would imagine - the uniform tends to be a giveaway in my experience.

In much the same way all destination displays on public transport in Ireland alternates between Irish and English to comply with the Official Language Act. Most people manage to cope.

 

[eisenach]

How would having 3 trains every 2 hours mess Leominster up? Its a rural town of just over 10K in population not in the commuting zone of any major city. 25 trains a day sounds pretty damn good to me. That's more than I'm hoping for my home town which is bigger than Leominster!

The Marches have two major city's at the North end (Liverpool and Manchester) and two at the south end (Bristol and Cardiff). Currently we fail to serve one in the North (Liverpool) and one in the south (Bristol). Its always going to be a compromise because of the nature of the route.

The major long distance traffic generators all get 2 tph linking them in my proposal Crewe-Shrewsbury-Ludlow-Hereford.
Abergavenny has 3 every 2 hours north but 7 every two hours south (as its commuting zone from Cardiff, Bristol).
Nantwich-Whitchurch-Leominster get 3 every two hours.
Craven Arms and Church Stretton get 1 tph into Shrewsbury.
The local stations between Crewe and Shrewbsury get 0.5 tph. Theirs probably a case for stopping the Liverpool trains at Wem so it has 1tph.
The 3/4 North Wales to South Wales trains should stop Shrewsbury-Hereford-Cwmbran only.

The best solution frequency wise woudl be to have 1 tph fast Manchester to Cardiff and 1 tph all stations Crewe-Hereford etc and say everybody change no through trains.

Oops, sorry, I misunderstood your post. 3 trains/2 hours is better than now, where it's mostly hourly with some gaps and the odd extra like the 16.39 to Holyhead. I must learn to read.

 

[northwichcat]

Well people manage to figure out that GARDA means policeman here in Ireland, despite most people not speaking Irish as their first language. The Irish police do not have the word "police" anywhere on their uniforms and people manage to identify them easily enough.

The Irish have retained a few Irish words and have never used English alternatives for them so any tourist guide book for Ireland will explain them. The Welsh have always used both languages so writers of guide books probably won't feel it necessary to provide translations.

 

[berneyarms]

The Irish have retained a few Irish words and have never used English alternatives for them so any tourist guide book for Ireland will explain them. The Welsh have always used both languages so writers of guide books probably won't feel it necessary to provide translations.

Regardless I think people will be able to identify policemen and women in Wales by one glance at their uniforms.

 

[Gareth Marston]

Oops, sorry, I misunderstood your post. 3 trains/2 hours is better than now, where it's mostly hourly with some gaps and the odd extra like the 16.39 to Holyhead. I must learn to read.

Craven Arms and Church Stretton only get 0.5 tph south toward Hereford but you cant please everybody and have worthwhile long distance services from multiple destinations over the line.

 

[Y Ddraig Coch]

It is very confusing for the many people that the destinations boards and train fronts keeping blinking between English and Welsh. I now see that the British Transport Police in Wales have only the Welsh word for Police on their uniform in big letters front & back. Goodness knows how most people are going to know who they are? At least in many countries, the word POLICE is written on uniforms - where it is completely different from the English version. Looks like the use of English is going to be banned in Wales! Enough to scare off inward investors moving to Wales?

PS. If you try typing in Welsh versions for English words that are similar to English, the spelling correctors change them to the English version.

Funny people always like to have a moan about Welsh in Wales. Like the police having Heddlu on their uniform only. You need to understand if we just put everything in English because it's easier for the English then smaller languages like Welsh which is older than the English language will die out.

It has to be used and in day to day use or even the Welsh will start using English. Our language must be preserved.

I don't see anyone complaining about the Irish only having Garda on their police cars and uniforms and probably less as a % of the Irish people speaking Gaelic.


***EDIT****

Appologies for mentioning the Garda point as someone has above again. I was typing while it was posted.

But in reply to the comment about the Irish never having used another word for Police other than Garda. Nor have the Welsh. At least here in North Wales.

I have lived here all my life, Welsh is my first language and Heddlu is the only word I have ever seen on uniforms and police vehicles and Ambiwlans for Ambulance

 

[northwichcat]

Regardless I think people will be able to identify policemen and women in Wales by one glance at their uniforms.

In England there's Police, British Transport Police and Community Support Officer. If someone has seen all the combinations in England will they know if Heddlu is Police or Community Support Officer?

 

[Gareth Marston]

In England there's Police, British Transport Police and Community Support Officer. If someone has seen all the combinations in England will they know if Heddlu is Police or Community Support Officer?

relevance to the consultation on the replacement Wales and Border franchise?

 

[northwichcat]

But in reply to the comment about the Irish never having used another word for Police other than Garda. Nor have the Welsh. At least here in North Wales.

But not having the English displayed is new: http://www.shropshirestar.com/wpmvc/wp/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/heddlu-welsh-police.jpg

 

[northwichcat]

relevance to the consultation on the replacement Wales and Border franchise?

If the WG/franchise insist on having English place names in Welsh on destination displays and CIS then discussion of the Welsh language is relevant. Like I suggested already they should have a separate display for the Welsh to reduce the amount of scrolling and to be accessible to people with dyslexia, if the WG think it's worth the extra expense.

 

[Greenback]

Please can we keep on topic. This thread is about the new franchise, not language, ireland, Manchester, Quebec or anywhere else. Thanks!

 

[krus_aragon]

I wonder if ATW could be breaching the Equalities Act with the constant changing of the destination display from English to Welsh. It must be very hard for some dyslexic people to read and they have to be allowed for in the same way as the blind or wheelchair bound passengers. If there were two separate displays then it might be a different matter.

I think a greater issue is that ATW have programmed the refurbished destination displays on the 158s to scroll their website across it: information that is of no immediate use when a train is pulling in to the station!

 

[craigybagel]

I think a greater issue is that ATW have programmed the refurbished destination displays on the 158s to scroll their website across it: information that is of no immediate use when a train is pulling in to the station!

It defaults to that when the system has been switched off. Usually this is because it's not working or because the train has an altered stopping pattern which the system can't cope with - there unfortunately being no way to manually force it to show just the trains terminus.

 

[Rhydgaled]

It defaults to that when the system has been switched off. Usually this is because it's not working or because the train has an altered stopping pattern which the system can't cope with - there unfortunately being no way to manually force it to show just the trains terminus.

If the display on the front of a 158 cannot show only the terminus then the system was very poorly specified, because that display is so small it should never try to display anything else in my opinion. At most it should toggle between "Fishguard Harbour", "Porthladd Abergwaun" and "The Fishguard Flyer"* A list of calling points on such a small display is never going to work.

* although I'm not sure if it's worth making that a named train, especially since it is reduced to one direction only from the May Timetable if Real Time Trains is correct (I fact ATW would seem to be in breach of their franchise agreement in May, with the other boat train terminating at Carmarthen with no London connection, whereas the franchise agreement says Cardiff or Swansea and must connect to/from London and Reading).

 

[anthony263]

Certainly I do hope we see much improved services on all the routes such as the heart of wales and Fishguard branches as well as the awaited half hourly services along the Vale of Glamorgan and Maesteg lines.


Also hope the Swanline service is increased back a clockface hourly frequency

 

[Bletchleyite]

It defaults to that when the system has been switched off. Usually this is because it's not working or because the train has an altered stopping pattern which the system can't cope with - there unfortunately being no way to manually force it to show just the trains terminus.

Or sometimes Mach crews can't be bothered setting it up. On the late-evening Mach-Pwllheli train I commented on upthread, I don't believe they *ever* bother setting it up. Certainly on none of the three occasions I have used that train was it set up. Nor were the reservations placed, which while there was no particular need for them is a bit sloppy too - the train shouldn't be reservable (or should just have train reservations for Advances) if they aren't going to be placed.

It's not a *problem*, but it doesn't make ATW appear in a good light. Rather a railway version of the bus company "sheet of A4 with a number scrawled on it in the windscreen" approach.

 

[craigybagel]

If the display on the front of a 158 cannot show only the terminus then the system was very poorly specified, because that display is so small it should never try to display anything else in my opinion. At most it should toggle between "Fishguard Harbour", "Porthladd Abergwaun" and "The Fishguard Flyer"* A list of calling points on such a small display is never going to work.
.

When it's working all it shows on the front is the terminus, which scrolls across in English and in Welsh except for the very small amount of places like Crewe/Cryw that fit both languages on the screen, where they just stay there constantly.

The problem is that it will only show that if the system is fully switched on - which means it both has to be working correctly and the train has to be making all of it's regular booked stops. If that's not the case, the whole system needs to be turned off, and all that will be displayed is the website. Unfortunately there is no manual override option like on some stock where you can type in the name of a station to show on the display if the rest of the system is not usable.

 

[gareth950]

Nor were the reservations placed, which while there was no particular need for them is a bit sloppy too - the train shouldn't be reservable (or should just have train reservations for Advances) if they aren't going to be placed.

It's not a *problem*, but it doesn't make ATW appear in a good light. Rather a railway version of the bus company "sheet of A4 with a number scrawled on it in the windscreen" approach.

Do ATW ever bother with reservations, even for Advances? I've just bought Advance tickets for a family trip Cardiff - Manchester and back for June and we haven't been allocated any specific seats, instead the confirmation email says: "The passenger is free to sit in any vacant unreserved seat for the class of travel specified on the ticket."

Now I know in this instance as we're starting from Cardiff going out and Manchester on return it's unlikely that we won't get seats, but what happens when someone is starting their journey from an intermediate station with an Advance and the train is already full and standing, as many of ATW's 2 and 3 coach long distance services are in the summer? Is the guard obliged to find them a seat, even if it means turfing someone else without a 'reservation' out of theirs?

https://twitter.com/ArrivaTW/status/852576449416622081

That twitter conversation is interesting. All other TOCs issue immediate seat reservations when booking Advances.

 

[tomuk]

Shrewsbury Station, England

 

[craigybagel]

Or sometimes Mach crews can't be bothered setting it up. On the late-evening Mach-Pwllheli train I commented on upthread, I don't believe they *ever* bother setting it up. Certainly on none of the three occasions I have used that train was it set up.
.

It may well be that there's no working code for that service. Or more likely, they don't switch it on because the 158 system still often struggles with request stops.

 

[craigybagel]

Do ATW ever bother with reservations, even for Advances? I've just bought Advance tickets for a family trip Cardiff - Manchester and back for June and we haven't been allocated any specific seats, instead the confirmation email says: "The passenger is free to sit in any vacant unreserved seat for the class of travel specified on the ticket."

Now I know in this instance as we're starting from Cardiff going out and Manchester on return it's unlikely that we won't get seats, but what happens when someone is starting their journey from an intermediate station with an Advance and the train is already full and standing, as many of ATW's 2 and 3 coach long distance services are in the summer? Is the guard obliged to find them a seat, even if it means turfing someone else without a 'reservation' out of theirs?

What if someone MUST have a reserved seat for medical reasons, but in ATW's case it seems, that isn't possible and when faced with a full and standing service, what happens?

ATW removed the option to reserve seats online. They are still available from booking offices and through journey care. If you have the time to visit a station with a booking office between now and the day before but you travel, you can show your internet purchased tickets and should be able to obtain reservations for your journey.

 

[gareth950]

ATW removed the option to reserve seats online. They are still available from booking offices and through journey care. If you have the time to visit a station with a booking office between now and the day before but you travel, you can show your internet purchased tickets and should be able to obtain reservations for your journey.

Thanks for that reply Craig, I will do that.

 

[Bungle965]

Do ATW ever bother with reservations, even for Advances? I've just bought Advance tickets for a family trip Cardiff - Manchester and back for June and we haven't been allocated any specific seats, instead the confirmation email says: "The passenger is free to sit in any vacant unreserved seat for the class of travel specified on the ticket."

Now I know in this instance as we're starting from Cardiff going out and Manchester on return it's unlikely that we won't get seats, but what happens when someone is starting their journey from an intermediate station with an Advance and the train is already full and standing, as many of ATW's 2 and 3 coach long distance services are in the summer? Is the guard obliged to find them a seat, even if it means turfing someone else without a 'reservation' out of theirs?

https://twitter.com/ArrivaTW/status/852576449416622081

That twitter conversation is interesting. All other TOCs issue immediate seat reservations when booking Advances. Why ATW cannot do that is beyond me.

It may well be that there's no working code for that service. Or more likely, they don't switch it on because the 158 system still often struggles with request stops.

I took one earlier this week from Wolverhampton to Holyhead where it failed to mention any of the request stops at all.

ATW removed the option to reserve seats online. They are still available from booking offices and through journey care. If you have the time to visit a station with a booking office between now and the day before but you travel, you can show your internet purchased tickets and should be able to obtain reservations for your journey.

I think it gives you a reservation if you are booking anything other than a advance purchase ticket.
Also you often have to find a good booking clerk as some will straight out refuse to reserve you a seat because it is an advance purchase ticket or will try and get a reservation on their system by selecting an advance ticket which surprise surprise does not give you a seat.
Sam