Wales & Borders Franchise Consultation

[Bletchleyite]

TBH "no Sunday service" has no place anywhere on the network in 2017. Needs to be the same as Saturday possibly with a later start.

 

[Greybeard33]

I would have thought Cheshire & Warrington LEP should make a contribution rather than 3 different councils each representing a small number of stations served by W&B

It seems that TfGM has provided some input:

We have pro-actively met with all four shortlisted bidders to set out our vision for Wales and Borders service as they serve Greater Manchester from 2018. The services affected in Greater Manchester are Holyhead/Llandudno to Piccadilly/Airport and Piccadilly-Shrewsbury-Cardiff-Swansea-Carmarthen.

https://www.greatermanchester-ca.gov.uk/meetings/meeting/335/metrolink_and_rail_networks_sub-committee

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

It seems that TfGM has provided some input:

Would that be: "Get out of our Airport so we can run a Rochdale stopper", or possibly something more constructive?

 

[PHILIPE]

THIS!!


I wrote complaining about the lack of winter Sunday services to Llandudno a year or two back and was shot down quite abruptly saying there is no intention to alter anything.


The amount of strangers I have had to share taxi's with from Llandudno Junction on a Sunday as the only way to get home I think more than justifies at least a shuttle service on winter Sunday's, the Conwy Valley line isn't used on a Sunday so the Conwy valley units could be used as the rolling stock.

Llandudno has a large number of restaurants , pubs and big national chain shops which are all open 7 days a week and long hours.

Surely in 2017 for a town the size of Llandudno something could be done.

ATW would say that it wasn't in the franchise agreement so they wouldn't have done anything themselves because they would have to pay for it or rely on outside funding coming from somewhere. A franchise such as the current ATW is based on historical data with no means built in to adjust to changes of circumstances. Similarly, the Cardiff Valleys have no New Years Day services whereas every other route operate the normal service. Again, this goes back to the Cardiff Valleys franchise introduced on privatisation in the 90s.

 

[Gareth Marston]

While that looks good on paper, and I'm not trying to pick your argument (as I actually think that's quite good), but looking at it practically, the Chester/Bangor service won't work as the running time is 1:07 which means no turn around ability at either end.

Having looked at it, the Conwy Valley line has a running time of 0:59 which means a two-hourly service is nigh on impossible allowing for turnarounds.

I suspect even a bi-hourly VT service isn't possible given voyager stock availability.

Of course we're going ideally with that. Slipping a extra DMU into the Chester to Bangordiagram and long layovers works. ( this could be extended to Caernaron eventually) Agree the Conwy valley will be hard to get clock face.

Something has to give on North Wales through trains, the reason it had so many historically was that there were only a handful or one a day. Modern high frequency is not compatible with serving everywhere.

 

[_Morsey_]

My nearest station (being in West Wales) is Haverfordwest, but i'm still surprised that we still have a mainline Milford Haven to Piccadilly train every 2 hours. I would've though that by now it would have changed so that Milford Haven would be serviced similar to how Pembroke Dock currently is, with the Piccadilly route starting either in Carmarthen or Swansea.

On a personal note, I take the train fairly regularly and I travel the full distance but despite that convenience, even I can see that the West Wales lines could probably be better managed than it currently is. There is certainly no need for 3-unit trains to be servicing all the way through, especially as it acts as a stopper train almost, having to stop at the likes of Clunderwen, Clarbeston Road, Ferryside, Whitland, Kidwelly etc.

 

[WelshBluebird]

ATW would say that it wasn't in the franchise agreement so they wouldn't have done anything themselves because they would have to pay for it or rely on outside funding coming from somewhere. A franchise such as the current ATW is based on historical data with no means built in to adjust to changes of circumstances. Similarly, the Cardiff Valleys have no New Years Day services whereas every other route operate the normal service. Again, this goes back to the Cardiff Valleys franchise introduced on privatisation in the 90s.

Indeed. Also their excuse for the awful 2 hourly service on the Cardiff valleys services on a Sunday (compared to half hourly other days) and the total lack of a Cardiff City line service on a sunday too. "It isn't in the franchise agreement, so we are not doing it"!

 

[gareth950]

So the initial ITT that is due to be published next month after the current consultation ends - will it actually be made public?
Or will the process continue to be held behind closed doors in secret, with bidders not allowed to talk, until the actual franchise award is announced next January?

 

[ChiefPlanner]

ATW would say that it wasn't in the franchise agreement so they wouldn't have done anything themselves because they would have to pay for it or rely on outside funding coming from somewhere. A franchise such as the current ATW is based on historical data with no means built in to adjust to changes of circumstances. Similarly, the Cardiff Valleys have no New Years Day services whereas every other route operate the normal service. Again, this goes back to the Cardiff Valleys franchise introduced on privatisation in the 90s.

Aberystwyth has a superb Sunday service these days , and Llandudno clearly deserves a similar service.

As an example of how things can be done , within a franchise - the poor Sunday morning service to Hereford was improved significantly by opening up Ledbury SB about 4 hours earlier - allowing much better Sunday am services Hereford to Great Malvern and beyond to Birmingham.....someone ought to get a grip on this , - and make some proposals for the 2 boxes to be opened up (am sure the local employees would relish some extra Sunday duties - and there is obviously spare stock doing not much on a Sunday.

(the LM case was modest all round , and probably is "commercial")

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Aberystwyth has a superb Sunday service these days , and Llandudno clearly deserves a similar service.

As an example of how things can be done , within a franchise - the poor Sunday morning service to Hereford was improved significantly by opening up Ledbury SB about 4 hours earlier - allowing much better Sunday am services Hereford to Great Malvern and beyond to Birmingham.....someone ought to get a grip on this , - and make some proposals for the 2 boxes to be opened up (am sure the local employees would relish some extra Sunday duties - and there is obviously spare stock doing not much on a Sunday.

Sadly, the current scheme to resignal the North Wales main line into Llandudno has been cut back to Colwyn Bay - so the Sunday staffing restrictions on the branch are likely to continue.
Aberystwyth benefits from centralised ERTMS (and formerly RETB) at Machynlleth, meaning that operating costs are the same for the whole Cambrian system - so you might as well use it.

Another current oddity is that on Sundays there are no through trains from the coast to/from Manchester.
You'd think Bangor at least would have some through services, with all the student traffic.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Sadly, the current scheme to resignal the North Wales main line into Llandudno has been cut back to Colwyn Bay - so the Sunday staffing restrictions on the branch are likely to continue.
Aberystwyth benefits from centralised ERTMS (and formerly RETB) at Machynlleth, meaning that operating costs are the same for the whole Cambrian system - so you might as well use it.

Another current oddity is that on Sundays there are no through trains from the coast to/from Manchester.
You'd think Bangor at least would have some through services, with all the student traffic.

All excellent points , so more grist to the mill. I hope some bidders are reading these posts

 

[craigybagel]

and there is obviously spare stock doing not much on a Sunday.

Given how many 150s there are doing the rounds on a Sunday (including a booked Manchester-Milford Haven run) I'm not sure that's entirely true....

 

[berneyarms]

Sadly, the current scheme to resignal the North Wales main line into Llandudno has been cut back to Colwyn Bay - so the Sunday staffing restrictions on the branch are likely to continue.
Aberystwyth benefits from centralised ERTMS (and formerly RETB) at Machynlleth, meaning that operating costs are the same for the whole Cambrian system - so you might as well use it.

Another current oddity is that on Sundays there are no through trains from the coast to/from Manchester.
You'd think Bangor at least would have some through services, with all the student traffic.

How is the Llandudno branch staffed on summer Sundays if you're saying it's a staffing issue?

 

[northwichcat]

Given how many 150s there are doing the rounds on a Sunday (including a booked Manchester-Milford Haven run) I'm not sure that's entirely true....

That's to send the 150s being used in North Wales 'back home' for maintenance and to send up some 150s to replace them. That's another of the disadvantages of the current Wales & Borders franchise boundary over RRNW and Wales & West.

 

[PHILIPE]

How is the Llandudno branch staffed on summer Sundays if you're saying it's a staffing issue?

Summer Sundays were included in the franchise spec so costs covered

 

[northwichcat]

Would that be: "Get out of our Airport so we can run a Rochdale stopper", or possibly something more constructive?

Just a one line response:

Stop putting Manceinion Piccadilly on the front of your trains - no-one knows where that is!

 

[berneyarms]

Summer Sundays were included in the franchise spec so costs covered

Ok - well surely that should be in the new franchise spec - that's what I was getting at in my earlier post.

It's utterly ludicrous not to schedule a Sunday service.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Even if not in any specification (and points noted on 150's having to go home to Canton for exams etc) ,

A prudent bidder would put this in perhaps as a costed , extra option.

From experience across the table , this ought to go down well.

 

[PHILIPE]

Ok - well surely that should be in the new franchise spec - that's what I was getting at in my earlier post.

It's utterly ludicrous not to schedule a Sunday service.

Hopefully all the year round in the new Spec

 

[craigybagel]

That's to send the 150s being used in North Wales 'back home' for maintenance and to send up some 150s to replace them. That's another of the disadvantages of the current Wales & Borders franchise boundary over RRNW and Wales & West.

Not true. There are weekday services they use instead for that (2155 Cardiff-Crewe and 2308 Shrewsbury-Cardiff). Many of the Sunday 150 diagrams see the units finish up in the same part of the network they started at that morning.

 

[PHILIPE]

Not true. There are weekday services they use instead for that (2155 Cardiff-Crewe and 2308 Shrewsbury-Cardiff). Many of the Sunday 150 diagrams see the units finish up in the same part of the network they started at that morning.

The 150s work from Cardiff to Manchester and return on Sundays because the 175s are scattered over the Network and not enough in the right place at the right time.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Just a one line response:
Stop putting Manceinion Piccadilly on the front of your trains - no-one knows where that is!

They're lucky not to get Heol Rhydychen (Oxford Road), or Fictoria, both of which I've seen in ATW timetables.
Liverpool can look forward to seeing Lerpwl on the front!

Another baffling direction is Newid yng Nghaer (change at Chester).

 

[berneyarms]

The 150s work from Cardiff to Manchester and return on Sundays because the 175s are scattered over the Network and not enough in the right place at the right time.

Which workings are 150 operated?

 

[PHILIPE]

Which workings are 150 operated?

I believe it is the 1034 and 1131 departures from Cardiff and 1430 and 1530 return. There are also a couple of 158 jobs and they can sometimes be found on those and can also be paired with a 153

 

[eisenach]

• 2 tph South Wales Metro service to Abergavenny.
• Torfaen stops deleted from Manchester to Cardiff run then stops only at 10K plus population stations Abergavenny, Hereford, Leominster, Ludlow, Shrewsbury, Whitchurch, Nantwich, Crewe.
• 2 hrly Liverpool to Bristol service. Crewe -Shrewsbury-Ludlow-Hereford-Abergavenny- Pontypool- Cwmbran-Bristol.
• 2 hrly all stations Crewe to Hereford service.
• 2 hrly all stations Shrewsbury to Llandrindod Wells service.

Well, that would bu**er Leominster, then ! Thanks !

 

[Llanigraham]

How is the Llandudno branch staffed on summer Sundays if you're saying it's a staffing issue?

I understood they rely on the residents agreeing to overtime, and reliefs being available. Neither are certain.

 

[PHILIPE]

I understood they rely on the residents agreeing to overtime, and reliefs being available. Neither are certain.

It's a case of not wanting to spend money to pay staff during the Winter. As said, ATW won't pay if it's not in the Franchise spec

 

[ChiefPlanner]

I understood they rely on the residents agreeing to overtime, and reliefs being available. Neither are certain.

In which case an increase in base staffing , all year . both NR and TOC is the answer ....and probably not hugely expensive either.

My previous quoted Hereford example was +1 signaller as I recall.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Of course we're going ideally with that. Slipping a extra DMU into the Chester to Bangordiagram and long layovers works. ( this could be extended to Caernaron eventually) Agree the Conwy valley will be hard to get clock face.

It could be done by running it with something else e.g. the original Holyhead to Llandudno stopper. Would be a bit of a waste of a unit otherwise.

 

[Llanigraham]

It's a case of not wanting to spend money to pay staff during the Winter. As said, ATW won't pay if it's not in the Franchise spec

In which case an increase in base staffing , all year . both NR and TOC is the answer ....and probably not hugely expensive either.

My previous quoted Hereford example was +1 signaller as I recall.

Sundays are not in a signaller's roster, but are always overtime! Although if you don't want to work it you have to find someone who will.