Wales & Borders Franchise Consultation

[tomuk]

I notice this thread is about a Consultation so I presume English Local Authorities and other organisation affected by the services will be contributing?

From what I have seen Cheshire West and Chester Council and Merseyside Combined authority seem the most involved. Promoting improvements to North Wales mainline, Halton Curve and Wrexham-Bidston Line. Linking Chester with Deeside, Wirral, John Lennon Airport and HS2 at Crewe.

growth track 360

Shropshire, Herefordshire, Telford & Wrekin less if any interest at all. Their limited rail interest seems directed at the new West Midland Franchise - Extra tph Shrewsbury-Wolves and improvements Snowhill - Worcester - Hereford.

DFT / Welsh Government seem to have agreed on some form oversight of cross border/ english services to reflect the 'democratic deficit'.

Although it is dependent on the minister Chris Grayling agreeing so who knows.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

What I find the most ironic about this whole farce is that a Labour Welsh Govt wants to take the upgrade and maintenance of the valley lines OFF it's UK nationalised owner and hand it to a private, which will most likely be owned by a foreign nation state, ODP! You couldn't make any of this stuff up!

Nobody is talking about selling off the infrastructure to foreign or private hands.
The most that will happen is that the WG will take ownership.
The winning bidder will at most be the operator of the infrastructure.

You're aware a Spanish-led consortium owns Heathrow Airport and the HEx branch?
It means the costs are not on the government's books, unlike Cardiff Airport.

 

[Gareth Marston]

Someone tried to pursuance me that MTR have the remaining 6 442's lined up for a sort of Gerald lite fleet but doing West Wales in addition to Holyhead with 3/4 express trains to Cardiff a day......

 

[craigybagel]

Someone tried to pursuance me that MTR have the remaining 6 442's lined up for a sort of Gerald lite fleet but doing West Wales in addition to Holyhead with 3/4 express trains to Cardiff a day......

I find the first part believable but using them to West Wales seems like madness to me......so it'll probably happen!

 

[tomuk]

Someone tried to pursuance me that MTR have the remaining 6 442's lined up for a sort of Gerald lite fleet but doing West Wales in addition to Holyhead with 3/4 express trains to Cardiff a day......

Six four car sets (don't want to haul around the heavy MLBS and break the motors) would be useful to supplement the 175s and let more 158s gravitate to Aber - Birmingham diagrams.

 

[Rhydgaled]

Someone tried to pursuance me that MTR have the remaining 6 442's lined up for a sort of Gerald lite fleet but doing West Wales in addition to Holyhead with 3/4 express trains to Cardiff a day.....

I thought the remaining 442s were earmarked for open access on Waterloo-Southampton?

3 expresses a day is all I would put in the franchise for Holyhead-Cardiff if I were writing the spec for the franchise, as follows:

05:30ish Holyhead to Cardiff Central or Swansea
11:30ish Holyhead to Cardiff Central or Swansea
17:30ish Holyhead to Cardiff Central

05:30ish Cardiff Central to Holyhead
11:30ish Cardiff Central to Holyhead (possibly starting back from Swansea)
17:30ish Cardiff Central to Holyhead (possibly starting back from Swansea)

Calling points would be Bangor, Llandudno Junction, Rhyl, Fflint, Chester, Wrexham General, Shrewsbury and Newport (with Hereford optional at the descresion of the TOC), plus Bridgend, Port Talbot Parkway and Neath if extended to/from Swansea. All three being named trains, perhaps 'Y Gerallt Gymro', 'Y Ddraig Gymru'* and either 'The Flying Welshman'** or 'Cities Of Wales'** (the latter having to be a Swansea working).
* or should that be spelt 'Y Draig Gymru'?
** translated into Welsh

 

[krus_aragon]

All three being named trains, perhaps 'Y Gerallt Gymro', 'Y Ddraig Gymru'* and either 'The Flying Welshman'** or 'Cities Of Wales'** (the latter having to be a Swansea working).
* or should that be spelt 'Y Draig Gymru'?
** translated into Welsh

You're right to mutate 'Draig' to 'Ddraig' after 'Y', but 'Cymru/Gymru' implies 'The Wales Dragon'. 'Y Ddraig Gymreig' - 'The Welsh Dragon' would be better, although the dragon is usually known in Welsh as 'Y Ddraig Goch' - 'The Red Dragon'. (If you're writing in Welsh anyway, specifying that it's a Welsh dragon seems a bit redundant.)

The Flying Welshman doesn't suggest any nice translations offhand: they'd sound a bit kitsch. 'Dinasoedd Cymru' for 'Cities of Wales' would be a nice, middle of the road name.

 

[Dai Corner]

A 'Cities of Wales' service should really run to Haverfordwest with a bus link to St Davids

 

[Phil from Mon]

I thought the remaining 442s were earmarked for open access on Waterloo-Southampton?

3 expresses a day is all I would put in the franchise for Holyhead-Cardiff if I were writing the spec for the franchise, as follows:

05:30ish Holyhead to Cardiff Central or Swansea
11:30ish Holyhead to Cardiff Central or Swansea
17:30ish Holyhead to Cardiff Central

05:30ish Cardiff Central to Holyhead
11:30ish Cardiff Central to Holyhead (possibly starting back from Swansea)
17:30ish Cardiff Central to Holyhead (possibly starting back from Swansea)

Calling points would be Bangor, Llandudno Junction, Rhyl, Fflint, Chester, Wrexham General, Shrewsbury and Newport (with Hereford optional at the descresion of the TOC), plus Bridgend, Port Talbot Parkway and Neath if extended to/from Swansea. All three being named trains, perhaps 'Y Gerallt Gymro', 'Y Ddraig Gymru'* and either 'The Flying Welshman'** or 'Cities Of Wales'** (the latter having to be a Swansea working).
* or should that be spelt 'Y Draig Gymru'?
** translated into Welsh

I'd suggest this is about right, but with the addition of one around lunchtime (plus a balancer) as well for people who want to get down for evening events (both cultural and political). Like the idea of them being named trains, but I think the most important is limited stops, decent catering (ie hot food morning and evening) and good work space. Most of the people I know who don't use the train from Anglesey or Caernarfonshire cite lack of amenities and long journey time when I ask them why. I like the idea of extending some to Swansea too.

 

[Gareth Marston]

If true the sacred cow of the hourly Cardiff to Holyhead service would appear to be ditched by one bidder anyway.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If true the sacred cow of the hourly Cardiff to Holyhead service would appear to be ditched by one bidder anyway.

Would make sense. It's a political construct that bears no resemblance to where people actually want to go.

 

[Rhydgaled]

You're right to mutate 'Draig' to 'Ddraig' after 'Y', but 'Cymru/Gymru' implies 'The Wales Dragon'. 'Y Ddraig Gymreig' - 'The Welsh Dragon' would be better, although the dragon is usually known in Welsh as 'Y Ddraig Goch' - 'The Red Dragon'. (If you're writing in Welsh anyway, specifying that it's a Welsh dragon seems a bit redundant.)

The Flying Welshman doesn't suggest any nice translations offhand: they'd sound a bit kitsch. 'Dinasoedd Cymru' for 'Cities of Wales' would be a nice, middle of the road name.

I believe there's already a named train called 'The Red Dragon' (the Carmarthen-Paddington service) so with 'Y Ddraig Gymru' I was trying to say "The Dragon Of Wales". Google translate suggests "The Flying Welshman" would be 'Y Cymro Hedfan' or possibly given Gerald is 'Y Gerallt Gymro' that should be 'Y Hadfan Gymro'.

A 'Cities of Wales' service should really run to Haverfordwest with a bus link to St Davids

I am aware there are Welsh cities that don't have a rail connection (I don't think St. Davids is the only one anymore); that's why I said "Cities Of Wales" rather than "The Cities Of Wales" which would imply all of them.

Like the idea of them being named trains, but I think the most important is limited stops, decent catering (ie hot food morning and evening) and good work space.

I agree that the limited stops is important; absolutely no point whatsoever in the current most-stops 175-worked Holyhead-Cardiff services other than if it requires fewer units than seperate Holyhead-Chester and Cardiff-Chester services. I forgot to specify that I think they should serve hot meals (all three of them, even if the lunch train is only bacon baguettes and beans on toast). Also forgot to mention that they should run every day, not M-F BHX only. First class though I would leave up to the TOC whether to provide it or not (and not include food in the price of the ticket, only non-alcoholic drinks).

Rather than wasting an hourly path with half-hearted Holyhead-Cardiff 175s, do the job of a north-south intercity-standard service well three times a day and leave the rest of the paths free for more-useful destinations.

 

[berneyarms]

So what would people like to see on the Marches Line?

An hourly Manchester-Cardiff regional express backed up by an hourly stopper?

Where would the latter go to/from?

 

[Gareth Marston]

Rather than wasting an hourly path with half-hearted Holyhead-Cardiff 175s, do the job of a north-south intercity-standard service well three times a day and leave the rest of the paths free for more-useful destinations.

Common sense....but will Cardiff Bay see it like that?

 

[krus_aragon]

If true the sacred cow of the hourly Cardiff to Holyhead service would appear to be ditched by one bidder anyway.

I wonder what they've put on the altar table in its place....?

 

[krus_aragon]

I believe there's already a named train called 'The Red Dragon' (the Carmarthen-Paddington service) so with 'Y Ddraig Gymru' I was trying to say "The Dragon Of Wales". Google translate suggests "The Flying Welshman" would be 'Y Cymro Hedfan' or possibly given Gerald is 'Y Gerallt Gymro' that should be 'Y Hadfan Gymro'.

I'd forgotten that GWR was still using the Red Dragon name. I only had the (long-gone) Rhyl-Llandudno Welsh Dragon in mind.

Another point that floats to mind is that "The Flying Welshman" (in any language) could bring unwanted attention/comparison with the Anglesey-Cardiff air link!

 

[PHILIPE]

I'd forgotten that GWR was still using the Red Dragon name. I only had the (long-gone) Rhyl-Llandudno Welsh Dragon in mind.

Another point that floats to mind is that "The Flying Welshman" (in any language) could bring unwanted attention/comparison with the Anglesey-Cardiff air link!

Hefyd, mae GWR HST Power Car o'r enw "Y Cymro" (The Welshman)

 

[Gareth Marston]

So what would people like to see on the Marches Line?

An hourly Manchester-Cardiff regional express backed up by an hourly stopper?

Where would the latter go to/from?

• 2 tph South Wales Metro service to Abergavenny.
• Torfaen stops deleted from Manchester to Cardiff run then stops only at 10K plus population stations Abergavenny, Hereford, Leominster, Ludlow, Shrewsbury, Whitchurch, Nantwich, Crewe.
• 2 hrly Liverpool to Bristol service. Crewe -Shrewsbury-Ludlow-Hereford-Abergavenny- Pontypool- Cwmbran-Bristol.
• 2 hrly all stations Crewe to Hereford service.
• 2 hrly all stations Shrewsbury to Llandrindod Wells service.

 

[berneyarms]

OK interesting and then on North Wales and the Chester-Shrewsbury routes?

 

[Bletchleyite]

OK interesting and then on North Wales and the Chester-Shrewsbury routes?

It would be nice to see all the VT Chesters extended through to Holyhead replacing one of the hourly fast trains, as they knacker the pattern.

Other than that I'd go hourly Manchester/Liverpool-Llandudno (portion worked), hourly Holyhead-Crewe(-Birmingham?) fast, hourly Holyhead-Crewe stopping.

 

[jamess]

From what I have seen Cheshire West and Chester Council and Merseyside Combined authority seem the most involved. Promoting improvements to North Wales mainline, Halton Curve and Wrexham-Bidston Line. Linking Chester with Deeside, Wirral, John Lennon Airport and HS2 at Crewe.

growth track 360

Shropshire, Herefordshire, Telford & Wrekin less if any interest at all. Their limited rail interest seems directed at the new West Midland Franchise - Extra tph Shrewsbury-Wolves and improvements Snowhill - Worcester - Hereford.

DFT / Welsh Government seem to have agreed on some form oversight of cross border/ english services to reflect the 'democratic deficit'.

Although it is dependent on the minister Chris Grayling agreeing so who knows.

Any input seen anywhere from Cheshire East council?

 

[berneyarms]

It would be nice to see all the VT Chesters extended through to Holyhead replacing one of the hourly fast trains, as they knacker the pattern.

Other than that I'd go hourly Manchester/Liverpool-Llandudno (portion worked), hourly Holyhead-Crewe(-Birmingham?) fast, hourly Holyhead-Crewe stopping.

That is asking the impossible I suspect given the number of Pendolinos and Voyagers available.

That to me is one of the significant issues on North Wales - you end up at certain hours with two fast trains operating when frankly only one is needed.

Where would the fasts stop in your planned service level?

And does North Wales justify two stopping trains an hour (I'm assuming that the Llandudno service is a stopper as at present)?

That's three trains an hour for some stations and possibly four when you add in the VT services - is that not overkill?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Fast I'd suggest would do roughly what the VTs do, i.e. miss Shotton, Abergele and the request stops.

Another option could be to run a Holyhead-Llandudno stopper, like used to run, which could interwork with the Conwy Valley to allow a more sensible timetable on that - the absence of an evening peak southbound service is silly and throws away passengers working in retail etc around Llandudno.

Yes, Llandudno as at present, just a second unit originating from Liverpool would be added at Chester.

All services minimum 4-car.

 

[berneyarms]

Fast I'd suggest would do roughly what the VTs do, i.e. miss Shotton, Abergele and the request stops.

Another option could be to run a Holyhead-Llandudno stopper, like used to run, which could interwork with the Conwy Valley to allow a more sensible timetable on that - the absence of an evening peak southbound service is silly and throws away passengers working in retail etc around Llandudno.

There is a real problem in setting service levels on North Wales given the two operators and the mish-mash of services that are currently in place.

Anglesey probably only needs a stopper every two hours I would suggest, alternating with a fast service on the other hour. I don't think Holyhead alone justifies two trains per hour (except the daytime boat trains). A stopping Holyhead-Llandudno might mix with the Conwy Valley service reasonably well as you suggest.

Bangor eastwards could probably do with an hourly fast and an hourly stopper, with extra stopping services at peak times.

One thing for sure - Llandudno should get a year round 7 day a week service.

 

[Gareth Marston]

OK interesting and then on North Wales and the Chester-Shrewsbury routes?

Shrewsbury to Chester

1 tph Liverpool - Liverpool South Parkway-Halton Curve- Chester-Wrexham-Ruabon- Chirk-Gobowen- Shrewsbury - BHI etc

3/4 a day North Wales to Cardiff expresses.
Extra Peak Hour trains from Manchester to start/terminate at Wrexham.

 

[Gareth Marston]

Shrewsbury to Chester

1 tph Liverpool - Liverpool South Parkway-Halton Curve- Chester-Wrexham-Ruabon- Chirk-Gobowen- Shrewsbury - BHI etc

3/4 a day North Wales to Cardiff expresses.
Extra Peak Hour trains from Manchester to start/terminate at Wrexham.

and for North Wales Coast

2 hrly West Coast Service Holyhead- Crewe
3/4 a day North Wales to Cardiff expresses.
2 hrly Holyhead-Llandudno-Conwy Valley Local Service
1 tph Manchester to Llandudno.
2 hrly Chester to Bangor service (connects with West Coast terminators at Chester)
plus Crewe to Chester hourly shuttle.

 

[Y Ddraig Coch]

There is a real problem in setting service levels on North Wales given the two operators and the mish-mash of services that are currently in place.

Anglesey probably only needs a stopper every two hours I would suggest, alternating with a fast service on the other hour. I don't think Holyhead alone justifies two trains per hour (except the daytime boat trains). A stopping Holyhead-Llandudno might mix with the Conwy Valley service reasonably well as you suggest.

Bangor eastwards could probably do with an hourly fast and an hourly stopper, with extra stopping services at peak times.

One thing for sure - Llandudno should get a year round 7 day a week service.

THIS!!


I wrote complaining about the lack of winter Sunday services to Llandudno a year or two back and was shot down quite abruptly saying there is no intention to alter anything.


The amount of strangers I have had to share taxi's with from Llandudno Junction on a Sunday as the only way to get home I think more than justifies at least a shuttle service on winter Sunday's, the Conwy Valley line isn't used on a Sunday so the Conwy valley units could be used as the rolling stock.

Llandudno has a large number of restaurants , pubs and big national chain shops which are all open 7 days a week and long hours.

Surely in 2017 for a town the size of Llandudno something could be done.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

and for North Wales Coast

2 hrly West Coast Service Holyhead- Crewe
3/4 a day North Wales to Cardiff expresses.
2 hrly Holyhead-Llandudno-Conwy Valley Local Service
1 tph Manchester to Llandudno.
2 hrly Chester to Bangor service (connects with West Coast terminators at Chester)
plus Crewe to Chester hourly shuttle.

Some alternate switching of destinations (Bangor/Llandudno) would be good.
I'm not sure West Coast services need go all the way to Holyhead all day. A couple should end up at Llandudno (7 days a week).
At least some Birmingham services should go via Stafford.
Crewe-Chester shuttle could go to Wrexham (depends on where the Liverpool services go).

 

[northwichcat]

Any input seen anywhere from Cheshire East council?

I would have thought Cheshire & Warrington LEP should make a contribution rather than 3 different councils each representing a small number of stations served by W&B

 

[berneyarms]

and for North Wales Coast

2 hrly West Coast Service Holyhead- Crewe
3/4 a day North Wales to Cardiff expresses.
2 hrly Holyhead-Llandudno-Conwy Valley Local Service
1 tph Manchester to Llandudno.
2 hrly Chester to Bangor service (connects with West Coast terminators at Chester)
plus Crewe to Chester hourly shuttle.

While that looks good on paper, and I'm not trying to pick your argument (as I actually think that's quite good), but looking at it practically, the Chester/Bangor service won't work as the running time is 1:07 which means no turn around ability at either end.

Having looked at it, the Conwy Valley line has a running time of 0:59 which means a two-hourly service is nigh on impossible allowing for turnarounds.

I suspect even a bi-hourly VT service isn't possible given voyager stock availability.