Arriva Rail North DOO

[Starmill]

In the hundreds of times I have caught the 2243 Manchester Oxford Road to Wilmslow I have seen the guard maybe four or five times. I know because one of them was the other day, and they actually were checking ticketss. There are never any doubles either.

The other day there was an older lady complaining that there are no guards on the trains any more, and it's worse off travelling on that train as a result.

 

[Starmill]

On the Manchester Airport-Scotland service the guard comes round checking tickets immediately after leaving Oxford Road but it takes them till Wigan 25 minutes later on average to complete checking the whole train. It kinda says something about the impractically of checking the whole train and being distracted opening doors every 5 minutes when you have half an hour between two stops and it takes nearly all that time to complete.

I often travel on those between Manchester Airport and Wigan North Western and there is not often a ticket check. Usually because the train is too full.

 

[HH]

Do Northern pay a commission on revenue collected?

 

[johntea]

I could almost tell you in West Yorkshire which Northern routes you're likely to be finding a guard checking tickets vs. a guard walking down the train just offering to sell tickets rather than checking tickets vs. you'll be lucky to see a guard!

Although since the new ticket machines causing all sorts of issues you can often see a guard struggling to get down 1 carriage of the train after just a couple of ticket sales along the way!

 

[northwichcat]

The other day there was an older lady complaining that there are no guards on the trains any more, and it's worse off travelling on that train as a result.

That point was made when the franchise was launched. The BBC interviewed a number of passengers at Manchester Piccadilly station and a number thought guards had already been removed from trains because they rarely see a member of staff on board. It's also been backed up by what some passengers have said on strike days about the operators already having sacked guards.

 

[northwichcat]

Do Northern pay a commission on revenue collected?

Apparently they do, which is possibly one reason why the younger guards are less likely to remain in the cab - they want every pound they can get, while the older ones are probably generally more financially secure so aren't bothered if they lose a few pounds by not doing revenue duties as frequently.

 

[BestWestern]

I don't see anything especially clever about continuously re running strikes over something that was actually accepted as a safe way of working as far back as 1981 (earlier on the T&W metro and Vic line) but each to their own I guess (let's just try and rally all the more recently recruited employees and pretend that period never really existed)

Yup, each to their own. Some folk find job security worth fighting for and all that jazz. Obviously, were you in a similar position, you'd smile sweetly at your bosses and shake their hand before bending over for them, just like all the other experts on here who have determined that those pesky rail staff should just suck it up... :roll:

 

[BestWestern]

On the Manchester Airport-Scotland service the guard comes round checking tickets immediately after leaving Oxford Road but it takes them till Wigan 25 minutes later on average to complete checking the whole train. It kinda says something about the impractically of checking the whole train and being distracted opening doors every 5 minutes when you have half an hour between two stops and it takes nearly all that time to complete.

Is that observation intentionally nonsensical?

Where trains do frequently stop every few minutes (which the service you mentioned doesn't), ticket checking being interspersed with station duties allows the Guard to observe who is boarding and alighting, and to do tickets accordingly. Time can also be taken offering assistance to those who require it (which is particularly likely on your TPE service). It is not a race to blast through the train in as short a time as possible.

 

[WatcherZero]

Nope your just not comprehending.
The fact it can take half an hour with no door interruptions to fully check tickets shows how impractical it is when your having to return to the rear to operate the doors every five minutes when stops are closer.

 

[Eccles1983]

Northern dont do an airport - scotland route.

TPE do.

 

[BestWestern]

Nope your just not comprehending.
The fact it can take half an hour with no door interruptions to fully check tickets shows how impractical it is when your having to return to the rear to operate the doors every five minutes when stops are closer.

I can assure you I comprehend it fully. As I've just explained to you, where a train makes frequent stops there is a high turnover of passengers, so the Guard will be required to repeatedly check tickets throughout the train, rather than systematically working from one end to the other. Being out on the platform and moving to different parts of the train can be beneficial. The same would apply to whoever does the ticket check, unless you man every carriage with a staff member.

Where does the MIA - Scotland service 'stop every five minutes'?

 

[yorkie]

Where does the MIA - Scotland service 'stop every five minutes'?

You misunderstood; WatcherZero was saying it takes the full time between Manchester and Wigan on a non-stop service to check all tickets, so on a stopping train (with a similar number of passengers) it is impractical to check all tickets if you have to go back to the rear doors every 5 minutes.

 

[BestWestern]

You misunderstood; WatcherZero was saying it takes the full time between Manchester and Wigan on a non-stop service to check all tickets, so on a stopping train (with a similar number of passengers) it is impractical to check all tickets if you have to go back to the rear doors every 5 minutes.

It will always take longer on an 'intercity' service, particularly full of airport passengers, as there will generally be a high volume of assistance and advice being requested. Checks on local trains stopping frequently will usually be far less complex and time consuming, although more tickets are likely to be issued.

The 'rear doors' issue is a problem of Northern's own making, of course; it isn't an issue afflicting Guards from most other TOCs.

 

[waterboo]

Whilst I often see the guard checking tickets on the Harrogate line, quite often the doors can delayed from being released at a station for up to 45 seconds whilst the guard has to walk from the front car to the rear vestibule to release the doors. And then there are of course the services which the guard makes no visible presence in the saloons at all, because the stops are so frequent.

Whilst I do think that there are some excellent Guards in the industry who really are a testament to Northern and other TOC's, can you really blame Northern (or the Dft) for trying to change something that is currently inconsistent into a more consistent package that will retain a second member of staff who will be more customer focused and will generate more income for the company by uninterrupted revenue collection.

Even if some routes was to go DCO, I would not imagine that any trains would run without a second member of stuff given the nature of the network and the amount of lost revenue that would incur.

If northern was not able to press this far, at the very least I could see a scot rail approach being used (driver release, guard closing) to minimise the delays in releasing the doors.

 

[waterboo]

The 'rear doors' issue is a problem of Northern's own making, of course; it isn't an issue afflicting Guards from most other TOCs.

Actually, it is quite the opposite!
Take the class 319's for example, northern have installed guards panels in every carriage.
The majority of 'rear door' operation is as a result of the fleet that Northern inherited.

 

[northwichcat]

Even if some routes was to go DCO, I would not imagine that any trains would run without a second member of stuff given the nature of the network and the amount of lost revenue that would incur.

If a train is delayed by just a few minutes and your journey involves changing trains then it can change which station it is most sensible to change at. You could argue that by 2020 a wheelchair passenger should be able to change which station they alight at based on the actual arrival times. If there's no-one on board other than the driver how would that work?

 

[craigybagel]

Actually, it is quite the opposite!
Take the class 319's for example, northern have installed guards panels in every carriage.
The majority of 'rear door' operation is as a result of the fleet that Northern inherited.

AFAIK the 319s were the only units they've done that too. ATW and GWR 150s, and EMT 156s have intermediate panels, Northerns don't. Also, Northern insists that conductors can not dispatch from the front. Without intermediate panels, that only leaves the back.

Add intermediate panels, and permit dispatch from the front where the conductor feels it's safe to do so, and then you'll be able to do a lot more revenue.

 

[BestWestern]

Actually, it is quite the opposite!
Take the class 319's for example, northern have installed guards panels in every carriage.
The majority of 'rear door' operation is as a result of the fleet that Northern inherited.

Did Northern not introduce a policy that required dispatch to be always undertaken from the rear? Regardless of whether or not it is possible to release from elsewhere, having to relentlessly walk to the back before departing every station is disruptive to carrying out other duties. Even as somebody who appreciates the unsuitability of DOO/DCO, I would question the need insist on dispatch always being from the extreme rear of the train.

As for rolling stock layout, FGW inherited a large fleet of Class 150s and had door panels fitted in the saloons. One presumes that, as seems to be standard policy for Northern, there was no will to spend any money on fleet improvements.

 

[Moonshot]

Very little revenue is collected by guards onboard the train within Greater Manchester. Principally because the guards don't often walk through the train. Where they do they are able to sell just a handful of tickets here and there. There are exceptions where a guard is making a real effort, or where there are a few minutes extra here and there, but most of the revenue is collected on arrival at Piccadilly, Oxford Road or Victoria - or it is not collected at all.

This is factually incorrect .

Its worth pointing out that guards get 5% commission. Its also worth pointing out that guards are monitored and KPI measured for revenue.

 

[Moonshot]

Did Northern not introduce a policy that required dispatch to be always undertaken from the rear? Regardless of whether or not it is possible to release from elsewhere, having to relentlessly walk to the back before departing every station is disruptive to carrying out other duties. Even as somebody who appreciates the unsuitability of DOO/DCO, I would question the need insist on dispatch always being from the extreme rear of the train.

As for rolling stock layout, FGW inherited a large fleet of Class 150s and had door panels fitted in the saloons. One presumes that, as seems to be standard policy for Northern, there was no will to spend any money on fleet improvements.

As I am a Northern Guard myself, we can despatch from the middle of the train if needs be. This is especially useful if stock is a pair of 142s or 150s coupled up. Its worth pointing out that our stock of 158s and 319s have door release controls at each door.

 

[BestWestern]

As I am a Northern Guard myself, we can despatch from the middle of the train if needs be. This is especially useful if stock is a pair of 142s or 150s coupled up. Its worth pointing out that our stock of 158s and 319s have door release controls at each door.

Ah, good news then! There was a policy though, wasn't there? After Georgia Varley?

 

[Moonshot]

Ah, good news then! There was a policy though, wasn't there? After Georgia Varley?

Not quite.....there has always been a policy of NOT despatching from the front of the train. We have a training document which is colour coded for each type of stock telling us what the despatch positions are. In a nutshell, pretty much halfway along the train is the max provided there are door controls...in reality for a 2 car unit only ( which are actually becoming increasingly rare ) it will always be the rear of train.

 

[ANorthernGuard]

4 car set with gangway rear of the front 2 coaches
4 car set without Gangway Front of the rear 2 coaches
2 car set rear door
3 car set middle

(these are the furthest forward that we are allowed to close doors)
We can however release from any

If its Long Train Short Platform. Use Platformed Local door and release passenger doors using emergency egress only.

 

[Bletchleyite]

That'd explain why the egress handles on Northern rarely have the plastic in place over the top! That's one heck of a workaround, though I guess it does the job.

I assume the egress can be reset easily, then?

 

[ANorthernGuard]

That'd explain why the egress handles on Northern rarely have the plastic in place over the top! That's one heck of a workaround, though I guess it does the job.

I assume the egress can be reset easily, then?

Very, just need a T-Key

 

[Moonshot]

That'd explain why the egress handles on Northern rarely have the plastic in place over the top! That's one heck of a workaround, though I guess it does the job.

I assume the egress can be reset easily, then?

If you mean the emergency door release on the inside, then these are only used in emergency situations only and should always be plastic covered. The one on the outside are used by us in the situation explained by my colleague when the train is too long for a platform.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If you mean the emergency door release on the inside, then these are only used in emergency situations only and should always be plastic covered. The one on the outside are used by us in the situation explained by my colleague when the train is too long for a platform.

Ah, do you mean the butterfly cocks?

 

[tsr]

Slightly confused by the comments about not dispatching from the front of what are fairly short trains. I can think of a couple of platforms in my area where you could dispatch a 12 coach train from the front couple of coaches in terms of visibility, though it's not now deemed to be ideal for watching the train out of the platform. But a typical Northern service, even with units in multiple, is much shorter and takes much less time to leave the platform - and surely there aren't that many platforms where it's impossible to see the rear of a 4 coach train from the front, with a bit of careful positioning?

If its Long Train Short Platform. Use Platformed Local door and release passenger doors using emergency egress only.

Oooh, that's not normally allowed "Down South". The other option, which is more time consuming but involves no use of emergency equipment, is to lock out carriages/doors not accommodated on short platforms.

This is how 8 coach 455s work on the Dorking-Horsham route on Southern. The conductor goes back, moves people forward from coaches 7 & 8 and locks the exterior doors out, and then the gangway door between 6 & 7.

 

[Moonshot]

Ah, do you mean the butterfly cocks?

Yes. Its a quick workaround as otherwise it would be a pain getting pax in and out of local doors only. Having said that, its not popular with guards anyway

 

[ANorthernGuard]

Ah, do you mean the butterfly cocks?

Sorry I should have made it clearer It is the "Butterfly" on the outside. We have to reset from the inside, usually by opening the panel above the door. 142's are not included in the Long Train Short Platform due to Glass covering the butterflies.