Arriva Rail North DOO

[wingsoveryorks]

Going down the Scotrail route is ruled out unless DfT agree to a change of a franchise specification. Given strikes at Southern have been going on for over a year and DfT were told to 'keep their noses out of the dispute' by Mick Cash a change to the franchise specification is very unlikely to happen while Mick Cash is leading the union.

The Scotrail route is not the best route. What is the best route is to guarantee there will be a second person on every train. That way they are more likely to get the drivers on their side. Most drivers are deeply concerned of having any form of incident, be it a fatality or a simple train failure, and having to deal with the situation alone.

They keep telling everybody that this is about closing doors, well they should prove it by letting the drivers close and open them, and let the guard deal with everything else on board. But obviously that is not what it is about, it just serves their purpose in making it sound petty.

 

[175001]

Another strike for April 28th, a Friday.

 

[northwichcat]

Another strike for April 28th, a Friday.

I knew when I saw the VTEC strike for the 28/29 that they'd call strikes for other operators on the same dates.

 

[Andyh82]

Is there any way out of this strike action?

RMT want to continue as currently

Northern are forced by their franchise agreement not to continue as currently.

Doesn't seem to me that either party will ever be able to resolve the issue. We could still be here in three years time.

 

[Bletchleyite]

What will happen is that the unions will lose, just like on Southern. Northern's hands are, as you say, tied. It's not a case of a TOC wanting DOO and possibly able to be convinced otherwise, it's a case of a TOC required to implement DOO.

 

[northwichcat]

What will happen is that the unions will lose, just like on Southern. Northern's hands are, as you say, tied. It's not a case of a TOC wanting DOO and possibly able to be convinced otherwise, it's a case of a TOC required to implement DOO.

I reckon long term the RMT could make it worse. If Arriva can come to an agreement with ASLEF they can start running DCO services. If the RMT make it difficult for them to operate non-DCO services then Arriva could look at options for moving towards 100% DCO, opposed to staying at 50% DCO. Some people might argue that's the plan anyway but it could happen during this franchise if the dispute goes unresolved rather than post-2025.

 

[ANorthernGuard]

What will happen is that the unions will lose, just like on Southern. Northern's hands are, as you say, tied. It's not a case of a TOC wanting DOO and possibly able to be convinced otherwise, it's a case of a TOC required to implement DOO.

The main difference is that Rail North who hold a bit of power are finding their councils voting against DOO and the Drivers have no DOO (in Passenger service) whatsoever. I like the majority of Guards see the day to day dangers of the PTI no matter what enthusiasts etc think. Day to Day we see people slipping tripping rushing looking at their phones and all sorts of things, cameras are a part solution but cameras have faults, whether it is poor lighting, rain etc etc. also the cost to get platforms and all safety requirements will run into high millions whereas down south a lot of that was done in the 80's/90's. I don't know any experienced drivers who wants it. I don't know any passengers that want it. BUT Guards (like myself) need to be seen and proactive, reports of incidents need to be completed (there are so many that go unreported) and most importantly the RMT need to get the message across correctly to the people who in their millions will be affected..the passenger because quite frankly when guards like me are gone...we are gone and then passengers will be practically on their own.

 

[LETHLFH]

As far as I'm aware Northern drivers don't currently have any DOO/DCO door releasing duties, I think it will be extremely difficult for Northern and Aslef to agree a deal on this as I can't see any deal being voted in by the majority of members.

 

[northwichcat]

The main difference is that Rail North who hold a bit of power are finding their councils voting against DOO and the Drivers have no DOO (in Passenger service) whatsoever.

TfGM and Metro are very powerful on the Rail North board. If they agree then it only needs 1 or 2 small councils to vote the same way as them and then there's a majority of over 50%.

Of course there's no guarantee TfGM will reach a unanimous decision internally. Stockport council and Manchester city council quite often seem to disagree.

 

[Bletchleyite]

As far as I'm aware Northern drivers don't currently have any DOO/DCO door releasing duties, I think it will be extremely difficult for Northern and Aslef to agree a deal on this as I can't see any deal being voted in by the majority of members.

Then they'll strike, and lose money, until they give in.

That's what happened at Southern. Yes, you might get OBSs for a few years, but they'll go too.

 

[Bletchleyite]

TfGM and Metro are very powerful on the Rail North board. If they agree then it only needs 1 or 2 small councils to vote the same way as them and then there's a majority of over 50%.

Will central Government allow them to change the franchise agreement to remove the DOO though? I doubt it?

 

[northwichcat]

Will central Government allow them to change the franchise agreement to remove the DOO though? I doubt it?

It might not get to that stage though. There could be 15 councils wanting to oppose DOO but if TfGM and Metro think DOO is a good idea, those 15 councils can shout all they want but they can't stop it, as long as a couple think the same way as TfGM and Metro.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I can't see TfGM having an issue with DOO, they don't after all have conductors on Metrolink, and they could if they wanted to.

(Though modern day tram conductors are more about a presence and doing tickets, not a safety role - basically the same as OBS).

 

[muz379]

Is there any way out of this strike action?

RMT want to continue as currently

Northern are forced by their franchise agreement not to continue as currently.

Doesn't seem to me that either party will ever be able to resolve the issue. We could still be here in three years time.

Saying that the RMT want to continue as currently might be correct , however in an initial meeting with Ariva Rail Northern they did offer a compromise of a scot-rail type deal with drivers releasing doors and guards closing them to alleviate issues over platform dwell times because guards cannot release straight away in some instances . This was rejected .

I do think this is going to be a long dispute .Aslef wont get involved until plans are put forward to them which effect their membership . If they do go into dispute as well the dispute will worsen especially as the impact of ASLEF strikes will be far more disruptive .

What will happen is that the unions will lose, just like on Southern. Northern's hands are, as you say, tied. It's not a case of a TOC wanting DOO and possibly able to be convinced otherwise, it's a case of a TOC required to implement DOO.

ASLEF have not agreed a deal on Southern yet ...

I reckon long term the RMT could make it worse. If Arriva can come to an agreement with ASLEF they can start running DCO services. If the RMT make it difficult for them to operate non-DCO services then Arriva could look at options for moving towards 100% DCO, opposed to staying at 50% DCO. Some people might argue that's the plan anyway but it could happen during this franchise if the dispute goes unresolved rather than post-2025.

What do you think the chances are of Arriva reaching such an agreement with ASLEF ? If the terms of that agreement are put to referendum like the southern agreement has been I think it is perfectly reasonable to be optimistic that it will be rejected .Up here there is no DOO-P at all and drivers have seen very local examples with Christopher McGee and Martin Zee of what world of responsibilities they are letting themselves in for by operating the doors . Not to mention that many drivers dont want to be on a train on their own with a load of passengers and all of the issues they can bring

Of course Arriva could impose a new method of work , but even then ASLEF could still probe very disruptive to that process by withdrawing rest day work and striking .

Arriva looking at options to move to 100% DOO would be a fruitless exercise because many of the considerations stopping them are limitations with infrastructure on a lot of routes . The more and more money network rail looses from budget cuts the harder it comes for them to upgrade the infrastructure up north to allow for 100% DOO . If it was feasible it would have been in the franchise spec so that Arriva was saddled with the whole job of breaking the unions rather than just half the battle . Any agreement for DCO is only going to be specific to route and traction . So at some point in the future it seems plausible to suggest that we are going to have the same dispute with regards to total extension to the whole network like is currently going on with Southern . Arriva are not required to do that as part of this franchise so I suspect that they wont even attempt any more than is necessary .

As far as I'm aware Northern drivers don't currently have any DOO/DCO door releasing duties, I think it will be extremely difficult for Northern and Aslef to agree a deal on this as I can't see any deal being voted in by the majority of members.

I agree with this 110% .

Of course a new method of work could be implemented without agreement , but ASLEF could still disrupt its introduction significantly . And imposing a new method of work and terms and conditions would significantly degrade the relationship between Arriva and Aslef drivers which would probably not then recover before the end of the franchise . Given many of the plans for service improvements , new traction and new routes are going to rely on driver goodwill and maintaining a rest day working agreement this would be incredibly stupid .So that will probably be what happens .

 

[Bletchleyite]

Saying that the RMT want to continue as currently might be correct , however in an initial meeting with Ariva Rail Northern they did offer a compromise of a scot-rail type deal with drivers releasing doors and guards closing them to alleviate issues over platform dwell times because guards cannot release straight away in some instances . This was rejected.

I can see no downside whatsoever of driver release, guard close (which would mean a mandatory guard on all trains) and huge benefits - as I've said many times I think the *entire* network should be converted to this method of operation throughout, and many TOCs with no intention of going DOO are already using it, such as VTWC, XC and prior to going DOO Southern.

If that really was on offer, and they really rejected it, they are frankly being very silly indeed, and they *will* lose.

 

[Andrew32]

I can see no downside whatsoever of driver release, guard close (which would mean a mandatory guard on all trains) and huge benefits - as I've said many times I think the *entire* network should be converted to this method of operation throughout, and many TOCs with no intention of going DOO are already using it, such as VTWC, XC and prior to going DOO Southern.

If that really was on offer, and they really rejected it, they are frankly being very silly indeed, and they *will* lose.

Just to clear things up, the union made the offer of driverreleases and guards close and the company rejected it.

 

[northwichcat]

Richard Allan Deputy MD at Northern:
"There is a lot to discuss and we urge RMT to get back round the table with an open mind as soon as possible. In addition to protecting jobs and current pay, we are also willing to offer future, annual pay reviews for existing conductors if we can agree a deal with RMT."

 

[northwichcat]

Just to clear things up, the union made the offer of driverreleases and guards close and the company rejected it.

The franchise specification didn't allow that, unless the intention was to do it on the services they aren't required to operate as DCO.

 

[northwichcat]

Arriva looking at options to move to 100% DOO would be a fruitless exercise because many of the considerations stopping them are limitations with infrastructure on a lot of routes .

I was saying it could be an option if they successfully started operating their DCO services but the RMT continued calling guard strikes preventing them running other services. If Arriva convinced DfT that long term replacing the Sprinters early and implementing more DCO would be cheaper than continuing to attempting to operate services with guards using old trains when the guards keep striking, I can't see a Conservative Transport Minister rejecting the idea.

 

[muz379]

I was saying it could be an option if they successfully started operating their DCO services but the RMT continued calling guard strikes preventing them running other services. If Arriva convinced DfT that long term replacing the Sprinters early and implementing more DCO would be cheaper than continuing to attempting to operate services with guards using old trains when the guards keep striking, I can't see a Conservative Transport Minister rejecting the idea.

But I cant see Arriva bringing the extra money to the table required to make this happen . And the Conservative transport minister would be all for it up until that point that he needed to get his chequebook out .

It would require extensive funding being made available for some pretty extensive infrastructure upgrades .

Yes replacing sprinters early and across the board DCO with some actual true DOO in the urban TFGM and METRO areas would reduce operating costs perhaps . But the actual capital investment to bring the infrastructure into a position where it is possible operationally would be a significant sticking point . Neither Arriva nor the DFT have that money .

 

[Starmill]

If that really was on offer, and they really rejected it, they are frankly being very silly indeed, and they *will* lose.

This is not consistent with the Franchise Agreement - Northern cannot agree to it. I thought this had been pointed out time and again.

 

[muz379]

I can see no downside whatsoever of driver release, guard close (which would mean a mandatory guard on all trains) and huge benefits - as I've said many times I think the *entire* network should be converted to this method of operation throughout, and many TOCs with no intention of going DOO are already using it, such as VTWC, XC and prior to going DOO Southern.

If that really was on offer, and they really rejected it, they are frankly being very silly indeed, and they *will* lose.

I think you have got the wrong end of the stick here .

It was offered by the RMT as an initial compromise and rejected by Arriva because it would not comply with the franchise spec .

I would have no issue with it . Although there are occasions as a guard when I have had to give 6 on the buzzer because the driver has stopped a little short so something would have to be introduced to mitigate the risk of that . Some sort of device in the cab to remind drivers of the formation they are driving perhaps would be one such idea .

 

[BestWestern]

I can't see TfGM having an issue with DOO, they don't after all have conductors on Metrolink, and they could if they wanted to.

(Though modern day tram conductors are more about a presence and doing tickets, not a safety role - basically the same as OBS).

They might not have an issue with DOO, but they might very well have an issue with no staff presence, and I'd imagine they'd have an issue with revenue dropping through the floor. I wonder how long it'd take them to twig what it's all about...

 

[Starmill]

They might not have an issue with DOO, but they might very well have an issue with no staff presence, and I'd imagine they'd have an issue with revenue dropping through the floor. I wonder how long it'd take them to twig what it's all about...

Very little revenue is collected by guards onboard the train within Greater Manchester. Principally because the guards don't often walk through the train. Where they do they are able to sell just a handful of tickets here and there. There are exceptions where a guard is making a real effort, or where there are a few minutes extra here and there, but most of the revenue is collected on arrival at Piccadilly, Oxford Road or Victoria - or it is not collected at all.

 

[Bungle965]

Very little revenue is collected by guards onboard the train within Greater Manchester. Principally because the guards don't often walk through the train. Where they do they are able to sell just a handful of tickets here and there. There are exceptions where a guard is making a real effort, or where there are a few minutes extra here and there, but most of the revenue is collected on arrival at Piccadilly, Oxford Road or Victoria - or it is not collected at all.

Some routes are better than others. The Calder Valley for instance the guard has more chance or venturing out of the cab than let's say the Airport Line where the guard is solely needed for the doors and does not have time to venture out and collect tickets. Ticket examiners would be best for that route.
Sam

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

Very little revenue is collected by guards onboard the train within Greater Manchester. Principally because the guards don't often walk through the train. Where they do they are able to sell just a handful of tickets here and there. There are exceptions where a guard is making a real effort, or where there are a few minutes extra here and there, but most of the revenue is collected on arrival at Piccadilly, Oxford Road or Victoria - or it is not collected at all.

That was certainly not my experience when I was a guard. To you I must therefore have been someone who made a real effort but I can assure you there were, and doubtless still are, plenty more guards who do make plenty of effort to pass through their train as often as possible. In fact for many it's the interaction with customers that is a large part of what makes the job so satisfying. It's also somewhat disrespectful of you to seek to tar so many with the same brush. Are there some lazy guards? Of course! But they are in a minority. Don't let your experiences on Airport stoppers, which are particularly problematic when it comes to on-board revenue duties, blind you to the reality of what happens across the wider Northern network both in and beyond Greater Manchester. The world does not revolve around Manchester!

 

[WatcherZero]

On the Manchester Airport-Scotland service the guard comes round checking tickets immediately after leaving Oxford Road but it takes them till Wigan 25 minutes later on average to complete checking the whole train. It kinda says something about the impractically of checking the whole train and being distracted opening doors every 5 minutes when you have half an hour between two stops and it takes nearly all that time to complete.

 

[craigybagel]

To be fair Northern Piccadilly staff are some of the best around for doing revenue - I've found it's very rare not to see them out and about despite the restrictions placed on them by both their stock and their rules on dispatch.

Also, as someone who works out of Manchester Piccadilly, I'm well aware of how many people are forced to queue for tickets at the barriers. Given how many people arrive on their trains, the queues aren't anywhere near as bad as you'd expect. I'd say they're doing an excellent job - especially in comparison to other urban railways.

 

[ANorthernGuard]

Very little revenue is collected by guards onboard the train within Greater Manchester. Principally because the guards don't often walk through the train. Where they do they are able to sell just a handful of tickets here and there. There are exceptions where a guard is making a real effort, or where there are a few minutes extra here and there, but most of the revenue is collected on arrival at Piccadilly, Oxford Road or Victoria - or it is not collected at all.

I disagree especially on the Piccadilly side. The majority of Guards are proactive, the only time you will never see a guard is on a double set without a gangway.

 

[northwichcat]

Never is an exaggeration. I did Knutsford to Piccadilly and back the other day. On the outward journey the guard wasn't visible until after Navigation Rd so anyone who travelled between Knutsford and Altrincham wouldn't have seen a guard. Coming back it was a young guard who seems to be the most proactive guard we see on the line for revenue duties - if it's 11pm or the train has some standing passengers he still makes an effort, even when others would remain in the cab.