RMT dispute on Merseyrail

[Bletchleyite]

In fact, the police are the biggest problem of the lot when it comes to the "Not on my patch approach" They seem happy to foist the problem onto the trains.

I must admit that I think Scotland have gone the right way on this one by having one single national Police Force and not separate County forces. The latter does just cause that insularity. I also don't see why there's a standalone BTP rather than just "rail units" of the main force.

Change that so there is a single "Police England and Wales" and things would I think improve. And fund it properly, of course.

Let's be honest here. Merseyrail compared to the rest of the TOC's is a bit of an enigma. It's kind of unique in it's working practises. Ripe for change, yet stuck in it's ways.

It is, and that's why I support DOO for Merseyrail but not necessarily[1] for Northern. Merseyrail doesn't really have a comparison in the UK, being a near fully-segregated German-style S-Bahn very similar to that in Hamburg and Berlin but not really like anything else. The closest UK comparison is really something like the Metropolitan Line, but even that has more co-running (with Chiltern and other SSL Tube lines).

[1] I support driver-released doors throughout the network, however, but guard-closed.

 

[northwichcat]

Perhaps you are unaware that the Manchester City Etihad stadium is in fact served by the Manchester Metrolink system with its own stop of Etihad Campus. As far as I am aware, any Northern Rail strike has no effect on the running of the Manchester Metrolink system, thank God.

Hull visited the Etihad stadium on Saturday so away fans would have more problem if TPE had been on strike than if Metrolink had been on strike - the away fans could have walked from Piccadilly if the latter had been true.

Also I'm sure places like Hazel Grove and Marple will have both Man City and Man United fans living there.

 

[northwichcat]

I think it is very telling that LM have banned alcohol after 9pm from the Birmingham-Liverpool trains but not any other part of their network, FWIW.

Also interesting that more serious incidents seem to occur on the late Liverpool-Crewe services than all the Northern services between Manchester and Cheshire combined, despite the earlier finish of the Liverpool-Crewe service.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Also interesting that more serious incidents seem to occur on the late Liverpool-Crewe services than all the Northern services between Manchester and Cheshire combined, despite the earlier finish of the Liverpool-Crewe service.

It'd be quite interesting to know where most such passengers originate along that route.

 

[Old Yard Dog]

Also interesting that more serious incidents seem to occur on the late Liverpool-Crewe services than all the Northern services between Manchester and Cheshire combined, despite the earlier finish of the Liverpool-Crewe service.

Could this be because it goes through Runcorn which doesn't have a great deal in the way of nightlife?

Northern services between Manchester and Cheshire tend to go through some very moneyed areas like Wilmslow, Poynton, Alderley Edge and Knutsford.

 

[wingsoveryorks]

Could this be because it goes through Runcorn which doesn't have a great deal in the way of nightlife?

Northern services between Manchester and Cheshire tend to go through some very moneyed areas like Wilmslow, Poynton, Alderley Edge and Knutsford.

I'll second this. Most of us know that the posher the area the more civilised the clientele.
I used to stand in Leeds station and guess where a train had come in from by the type of person on it, I was seldom wrong.

 

[Camden]

Runcorn rather taking the brunt of the hit there on preconception alone I think. The problems in the news reports almost always refer to last trains and to those who then alight at Acton Bridge, Hartford, Winsford or Crewe, in rural leafy Cheshire.

 

[wingsoveryorks]

Runcorn rather taking the brunt of the hit there on preconception alone I think. The problems in the news reports almost always refer to last trains and to those who then alight at Acton Bridge, Hartford, Winsford or Crewe, in rural leafy Cheshire.

Yes, we are being unkind to good old runny. Social misfits live anywhere these days. Men in their late twenties and thirties can behave like children in a group, they have the money to spend in the cities, and some have the brains and IQ of a dead plant..

 

[Robertj21a]

We all like to think our little part of the world is safe Neil, but it's not the case. If Merseyside is the Mecca of safety, why are they advocating putting security officers on trains? Why did guards become discouraged from doing revenue in favour of teams of revenue inspectors. Just because you have been lucky enough not to see it doesn't mean it isn't there.

I have spoken to some Merseyrail guards. They openly admit they avoid certain types, groups of scallies and the like who you get no end of bother from. Same in the Glasgow SPT area.

I'll visit this site in five years from now when the crime on Merseyrail has shot up. The circle will be complete then, and the public will be demanding we go back to staff on the trains.

While I agree with some of what you say, I do feel that you are going somewhat overboard with all your concerns. I travel quite extensively within the UK, and many countries abroad, but have never felt particularly concerned about safety when travelling by train. I used to work around Liverpool and don't recall any significant problems on Merseyrail (or the other operators).
I also travel around London on 12-car Thameslink trains, and the London Overground, without any concerns. As they see no need to have a guard on board I struggle to see why it should be different elsewhere.

 

[Bletchleyite]

While I agree with some of what you say, I do feel that you are going somewhat overboard with all your concerns. I travel quite extensively within the UK, and many countries abroad, but have never felt particularly concerned about safety when travelling by train. I used to work around Liverpool and don't recall any significant problems on Merseyrail (or the other operators).

FWIW the only time I can recall when I have felt genuinely unsafe in or around a train was at Hamburg Hbf when (and I can recall it vividly) I heard the whistle go for a RegionalExpress formed of a few Silberlinge, and it was shortly followed by a very haggard looking drug user legging it out of the toilet onto the platform with a needle still sticking out of his arm. Could, I suppose, have been insulin, but it *definitely* didn't look like it.

And being formed of Silberlinge that train had a guard (who obviously was busy with dispatch at that second).

My experience in the UK is of a much, much safer and less scary environment, even at night.

I've had some amusing experiences on late-night Merseyrail, but none that were particularly scary as such. The funniest was a Birkenhead scally who, as soon as the doors closed at his station, started effing and blinding about how the Scousers should eff off back over the river. Then a last-minute runner bolted onto the platform, and the doors were reopened....the scally legged it, clearly not really as "'aard" as he thought he was. Then there was the day when a spliff was lit up on the last Liverpool-Ormskirk train, of course it was passed around the carriage (though I declined to partake myself). I do of course understand that this kind of low-level antisocial behaviour can scare people, and can be mitigated by more staff, but it isn't *unsafe* as such.

 

[Robertj21a]

FWIW the only time I can recall when I have felt genuinely unsafe in or around a train was at Hamburg Hbf when (and I can recall it vividly) I heard the whistle go for a RegionalExpress formed of a few Silberlinge, and it was shortly followed by a very haggard looking drug user legging it out of the toilet onto the platform with a needle still sticking out of his arm. Could, I suppose, have been insulin, but it *definitely* didn't look like it.

And being formed of Silberlinge that train had a guard (who obviously was busy with dispatch at that second).

My experience in the UK is of a much, much safer and less scary environment, even at night.

I've had some amusing experiences on late-night Merseyrail, but none that were particularly scary as such. The funniest was a Birkenhead scally who, as soon as the doors closed at his station, started effing and blinding about how the Scousers should eff off back over the river. Then a last-minute runner bolted onto the platform, and the doors were reopened....the scally legged it, clearly not really as "'aard" as he thought he was. Then there was the day when a spliff was lit up on the last Liverpool-Ormskirk train, of course it was passed around the carriage (though I declined to partake myself). I do of course understand that this kind of low-level antisocial behaviour can scare people, and can be mitigated by more staff, but it isn't *unsafe* as such.

That's very true. I think we have rather more 'scaremongers' around nowadays (perhaps due to social media, 'instant' news, terrorism etc?) and people seem to be looking for problems rather than just getting on with their own lives.
I tend to be quite 'Streetwise' wherever I am, so rarely feel any concerns, but I guess others may assume that there must be problems to look out for.

 

[Bletchleyite]

That's very true. I think we have rather more 'scaremongers' around nowadays (perhaps due to social media, 'instant' news, terrorism etc?) and people seem to be looking for problems rather than just getting on with their own lives.

Indeed, crime is actually at an all-time low, yet if you read the Press you'd think we were in the middle of a crime wave. For example, car theft (theft of rather than theft from) has near disappeared, the immobiliser has put paid to that (you still get the occasional bit involving theft of keys or low-loaders at the premium end, but you're very unlikely to have your Vauxhall Astra nicked, and the stereo is safe too because it's the same as the one in every other Astra so there is no demand). And what's the point in burgling my house when the expensive stuff (laptop, phone, iPad) is all in my bag with me?

I tend to be quite 'Streetwise' wherever I am, so rarely feel any concerns, but I guess others may assume that there must be problems to look out for.

Being 6' 4" and built like the proverbial, I'm more concerned about inadvertently scaring other people than being scared (I'm actually totally non-violent, last time I hit someone in anger I was aged 11, but the thing is people don't know that just from appearance). But even so, I think people do assume that because somebody gets mugged once in a while there's going to be a mugger behind every corner. Of course, it's sensible to plan in your head what you'll do if there is (that's the sort of thing being streetwise is about), but in all likelihood you'll never have to execute that plan.

OTOH, I can see how I would think differently if I was a 5 foot woman (it shouldn't be sexist, but there is of course a type of attack that is a whole lot less likely to happen to a male - fear of sexual attack is something men often find it difficult to understand because, while male rape does occur, it is not very common).

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Northern services between Manchester and Cheshire tend to go through some very moneyed areas like Wilmslow, Poynton, Alderley Edge and Knutsford.

I feel somewhat a tad peeved to see our village of Prestbury not thought worthy of a mention above (we do have a railway station)....

 

[D1009]

I think the dream for the RMT would have been to have caused enough disruption that the National had to be cancelled or postponed - it's the one annual event which brings 50,000 people to Merseyside and the one opportunity to make their case before more than a purely local audience.

I'd have thought it more likely to be cancelled due to the animal cruelty issue than the RMT.

 

[fowler9]

Without wanting to drift too far off topic the alcohol bans on London Midland are mainly related to people leaving Liverpool late on to towns outside Merseyside and the people on their way back home. The last two Northern trains out of Lime Street down the Cheshire Lines route on a Friday and Saturday night are similarly problematic, not with Scousers but with people from further afield coming to Liverpool for a night out and then going home to Widnes and Warrington etc. Liverpool itself is actually a pretty safe city crime wise despite jokes from many comedians, although no doubt they would say all the scouse criminals are on the rob and fighting somewhere else rather than on their own doorstep. Ha ha.

Going back to the safety critical role of the guard I would say it seems to encompass more than just one guard sorting out a gang of drunks of a weekend evening. But I do feel safer knowing there is someone sober in a position of authority near by who can get a message out if it kicks off rather than than me panicking on the train and ringing 999 after 5 pints.

 

[Gareth]

Change that so there is a single "Police England and Wales" and things would I think improve. And fund it properly, of course.

We could have a single England & Wales City Council too. Imagine the savings.

 

[Gareth]

Perhaps this threat could be a very good reason for the Jockey Club to move the Grand National away from Aintree.

They should move it to Salford Quays.

 

[Bletchleyite]

We could have a single England & Wales City Council too. Imagine the savings.

I don't think that is even remotely similar. We are I believe unusual in Europe in not having a national Police Force (the BTP and military police aside), even if they might have local ones too.

You could argue to *really* localise i.e. by town where there are genuine variances, but practically there isn't a lot of difference between what Thames Valley has to do, and what any other part-urban part-rural force does. Therefore no need for different policies nor approaches.

 

[fowler9]

In many places outside the UK (e.g. Barcelona, which has a massive problem with street crime to the point that precautions against it really sour a visit) I would agree. But Merseyrail is a relatively safe network (I have been on and off it for years since I was a kid, albeit not so much now I'm down South), just like LU is, and it has been made safer still by the Byelaw enforcement etc by the current franchise. It is not, and was not, the NY Subway or similar.

It's sensible to be streetwise, but I think your methods are somewhat overkill for most of the UK, certainly Merseyrail. Though I never put anything in my back pockets because if I sat down all 19 stone of me would squash it!

I agree with you, a lot of what I said is overkill in the UK. I don't carry a drop wallet in the UK for example. The number of people plugged in to their phones with sound cancelling headphones on playing music as they walk through a busy city is mad though.

Just a couple of years back I was leaving a mates flat in town heading to Lime Street a bunch of young scalls were a short way behind me and I heard one say "Run past and grab his bag", I heard them start to walk faster and turned around and looked at them instantly. they all split and walked away. I rarely feel unsafe and am not paranoid, just a few simple precautions save you a load of bother. Most petty street criminals want an easy target.

 

[AndrewE]

Going back to the safety critical role of the guard ...

Has anyone else read Peter Rayner's piece in Railnews this month where he admits it was probably a mistake? DOO cut costs (as intended) but ignored the wider social issues, like passengers feeling safe, the needs of those requiring assistance etc etc, especially in the context of unstaffed stations. He says the combination of the last two is effectively keeping elderly and disabled people from travelling by train...

It's as bad as local authorities closing social centres because they "don't pay" or "make a loss" when the council has been given a mental health budget (and has other similar social services-type obligations) that are supposed to fund activities with wider benefits.

I wish that Government would acknowledge the broader picture, rather than slime away from their responsibilities by allowing (i.e. requiring) cuts but blaming other parts of the public sectorfor them. DOO requirements contained within franchises being a case in point.

 

[fowler9]

Has anyone else read Peter Rayner's piece in Railnews this month where he admits it was probably a mistake? DOO cut costs (as intended) but ignored the wider social issues, like passengers feeling safe, the needs of those requiring assistance etc etc, especially in the context of unstaffed stations. He says the combination of the last two is effectively keeping elderly and disabled people from travelling by train...

It's as bad as local authorities closing social centres because they "don't pay" or "make a loss" when the council has been given a mental health budget (and has other similar social services-type obligations) that are supposed to fund activities with wider benefits.

I wish that Government would acknowledge the broader picture, rather than slime away from their responsibilities by allowing (i.e. requiring) cuts but blaming other parts of the public sectorfor them. DOO requirements contained within franchises being a case in point.

Not read that mate but it is interesting as a broader issue. It is all well and good telling people they are perfectly safe and assuming they all have complete coverage off at least a 3G phone but not everyone is like that.

 

[Gareth]

I don't think that is even remotely similar. We are I believe unusual in Europe in not having a national Police Force (the BTP and military police aside), even if they might have local ones too.

You could argue to *really* localise i.e. by town where there are genuine variances, but practically there isn't a lot of difference between what Thames Valley has to do, and what any other part-urban part-rural force does. Therefore no need for different policies nor approaches.

"Welcome to England & Wales - where no one is left behind"

What you propose would be a behemoth. It would be ten times larger than Police Scotland which is itself somewhat cumbersome. Only France has anything comparable; most European countries being either federations or comfortably smaller than England & Wales. France is no role model though and is almost as stupidly centralized as England is. Even France now allows municipal police forces. Saying crime is the same everywhere isn't an excuse for centralization. For a start, it isn't always the same and different areas will find they have different priorities. There's also the need for accountability, which gets harder when you have one person appointed by a distant government who then appoints someone else, to appoint someone else to deal with a region which contains your area. We need to maintain the tradition of policing being a civilian organisation in service of the people (no matter how notional that may increasingly be these days) rather than throw it out entirely in favour of a sort of national guard system some continental countries inherited from dictatorial/autocratic regimes.

Most sensible places (that aren't tiny) have at least two layers of policing - local/municipal and county/provincial/regional. We should be looking at this concept, as part of a wider campaign of decentralization and the return of proper municipal government.

But this is off topic, I suppose.

 

[Skie]

Merseyrail guards aren't currently very visible. In the last 6 months I've seen one guard operate the doors from the passenger compartment. That's it, out of 50 odd journeys of ~15 minutes duration one whole guard ventured outside of their cab.

Compare that to Northern/TPE/Virgin where you will have your ticket checked at least once during a journey and see the guard doing it for others getting on later. The Merseyrail guards sold their revenue duties for a better pay-deal and sealed their own fate.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I've taken plenty of VTWC trains where the guard has been nowhere to be seen (or often seen, but chatting to the buffet steward or 1st class steward).

 

[Bletchleyite]

Why, out of interest, were Merseyrail guards allowed to "sell" their revenue duties? Was this a precursor to DOO?

 

[northwichcat]

Merseyrail guards aren't currently very visible. In the last 6 months I've seen one guard operate the doors from the passenger compartment. That's it, out of 50 odd journeys of ~15 minutes duration one whole guard ventured outside of their cab.

Compare that to Northern/TPE/Virgin where you will have your ticket checked at least once during a journey and see the guard doing it for others getting on later. The Merseyrail guards sold their revenue duties for a better pay-deal and sealed their own fate.

Not from my experience. I sometimes manage 50 minutes on a Northern service without seeing a guard, while it's normal to see a guard 3 or 4 times on a train between Chester and Birkenhead even if they don't check tickets. On Virgin you can get from Euston to Crewe without seeing a guard even if there's plenty of staff not trained as guards visible.

 

[Goldfish62]

Hence the security teams they propose. A guard in the back cab (which is where 99% of LM ones will be) is neither use nor ornament. That so many people I've spoken to seem to think LM (south WCML) is already DOO speaks volumes.

So keep the guards, then - but follow European and SWT practice and don't have them in the cabs *ever*, doubling them up if you need to (as SBB sometimes do)? Then there is real benefit, give or take the droplight issue.
.

Not sure which SWT services you use, but on the ones I use daily it's rare for the guard to leave the middle cab of a two unit formation.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Not sure which SWT services you use, but on the ones I use daily it's rare for the guard to leave the middle cab of a two unit formation.

Don't use them often but when I have it's been the mainline ones and the guard has generally been "out and about" and announced his presence. The non-revenue guards on the 455s may be different of course.

 

[Goldfish62]

And Metrolink is, err, DOO.

Given that a number of posts on this thread have convinced me that Merseyrail is a crime-ridden hellhole, maybe the answer is just to close it down, use the core part of it as part of a new light rail system for Merseyside and give the rest over to bus operators.

 

[northwichcat]

Given that a number of posts on this thread have convinced me that Merseyrail is a crime-ridden hellhole, maybe the answer is just to close it down, use the core part of it as part of a new light rail system for Merseyside and give the rest over to bus operators.

Merseyrail is a perfectly safe system to travel on. It's got a much lower crime rate than the London Underground.

Some people try to stereotype Liverpool as being a crime capital, yet proportionally there's less crime in Liverpool than in 19 other cities in the UK including cities like Nottingham.