Wales & Borders Franchise Consultation

[krus_aragon]

Without me having to.trawl through pages and pages, please tell me what stock ATW is getting to provide the extra seats in may that has been announced today. Thanks.

No new stock that I'm aware of. There's a detailed listing of capacity changes and added services on the BBC's website.

• [li]130 more seats from Barry to Cardiff Central (all stations except Grangetown) at 08:13 BST
• 104 extra seats from Treherbert to Cardiff (all stations) at 06:47
• 208 extra seats from Radyr to Cardiff via Llandaff at 07:50
• 130 extra seats on the 06:32 Rhymney to Cardiff service
• 130 extra seats on the 06:09 Rhymney to Cardiff service
• An additional 104 seats on the 17:26 Merthyr service
• New service - 07:52 Cardiff Central to Barry
• New service - 08:13 Barry to Cardiff Central
• New service - 07:57 Cardiff Central to Radyr via the City Line
• New service - 08:13 Radyr-Cardiff Central via Llandaff

There's an extra service to/from Cardiff using the Barry turnback. At 130 seats, that sounds like a class 150. By that rationale, two extra 150s are going to be overnighting at Rhymney sidings for the first two services of the day, getting back to Cardiff before 08:00. 104 seats from Treherbert at 06:47 suggests an extra pacer tagged on the back. Similarly 208 seats will be two pacers.

 

[physics34]

No new stock that I'm aware of. There's a detailed listing of capacity changes and added services on the BBC's website.



There's an extra service to/from Cardiff using the Barry turnback. At 130 seats, that sounds like a class 150. By that rationale, two extra 150s are going to be overnighting at Rhymney sidings for the first two services of the day, getting back to Cardiff before 08:00. 104 seats from Treherbert at 06:47 suggests an extra pacer tagged on the back. Similarly 208 seats will be two pacers.

thanks to you and others that have answered, im not clued up with services in Wales but do try to keep an eye on the rolling stock.

 

[gareth950]

No new stock that I'm aware of. There's a detailed listing of capacity changes and added services on the BBC's website.

There's an extra service to/from Cardiff using the Barry turnback. At 130 seats, that sounds like a class 150.

So instead of running this 'extra' 0813 Barry - Central service, why can't that 150 just be tagged onto the 0641 CDF - Barry - Bridgend, to make the 0742 Bridgend - Barry - Central - Aberdare 4 carriages permanently, with the extra 150 uncoupled when the service arrives back in Central at 0840, meaning the 0815 all stops Barry - Central - Queen St - Cathays - Aberdare is kept in place?
Look at RTT for trains from Barry - Central last Friday morning. The trial wasn't exactly a success. Of course in local press today Lynne Milligan is claming otherwise.

 

[PHILIPE]

So instead of running this 'extra' 0813 Barry - Central service, why can't that 150 just be tagged onto the 0641 CDF - Barry - Bridgend, to make the 0742 Bridgend - Barry - Central - Aberdare 4 carriages permanently, with the extra 150 uncoupled when the service arrives back in Central at 0840, meaning the 0815 all stops Barry - Central - Queen St - Cathays - Aberdare is kept in place?
Look at RTT for trains from Barry - Central last Friday morning. The trial wasn't exactly a success. Of course in local press today Lynne Milligan is claming otherwise.

Because it won't be there at 0641 as, as far as I can make out from RTT, it is off 0748 arrival from Carmarthen and working additional 0752 Cardiff Cen to Barry. On return booked into Platform 2 for 0912 to Cheltenham.

 

[gareth950]

Because it won't be there at 0641 as, as far as I can make out from RTT, it is off 0748 arrival from Carmarthen and working additional 0752 Cardiff Cen to Barry. On return booked into Platform 2 for 0912 to Cheltenham.

Oh well, I guess I should get used to it. My commute to Queen St and Cathays getting more difficult due to trains from Barry terminating at Central is just a sign of things to come.

 

[Gareth Marston]

A nice little diversion from the thread topic the consultation on the Wales and Borders franchise I Imagine that Valleys Lines will be the same from this May until such times as extra stock is cascaded or the Metro in whatever form is up and running.

The TfW events this week are taking place away from Cardiff commuter belt so the (currently) Cardiff based TfW staff will be finding out about the world away from Valleys Lines.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Item on the news this morning that rail infrastructure in Wales (ie Network Rail funding) will not be devolved to WG.
I haven't seen the details. It was in response to a Select Committee report.
Basically it means Wales will not have its own input to the upcoming HLOS as Scotland does, or its own enhancements budget.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-39449104

This is the HOC Welsh Affairs Committee document which includes HMG's response to the points raised in the report, plus a parallel response from Ken Skates for WG.
The upshot is that infrastructure lies with Westminster, and rolling stock with Cardiff.
English complaints about the W&B franchise can be routed via MPs to the WG in Cardiff.
https://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201617/cmselect/cmwelaf/1111/1111.pdf

 

[Gareth Marston]

Here's the exciting agenda for the TfW Consultation event in Aberystwyth on Monday.

Digwyddiadau Ymgynghori / Consultation Events
Agenda

1. Cyflwyniad / Introduction (15 mun / mins)

2. Gweithdai / Workshops

Gweithgareddau a sesiynau trafod ar bob un o’r pynciau isod - 30 muned ar gyfer bob sesiwn

Activities and discussion exercises on each of the following topics – 30 minutes for each session

• SESIWN 1 / SESSION 1 – Cynllunio eich taith / Planning your journey

• SESIWN 2 / SESSION 2 – Gwasanaethau / Services

• SESIWN 3 / SESSION 3 – Profiad yn yr orsaf / Experience at the Station

• SESIWN 4 / SESSION 4 – Ar y trên / On the train (30 mun / mins)

3. Sesiwn crynhoi / Round up (15 mun / mins)

Presumably TfW are still grappling with the what is a train and what doe sit do question.......

 

[jamess]

Here's the exciting agenda for the TfW Consultation event in Aberystwyth on Monday.



Presumably TfW are still grappling with the what is a train and what doe sit do question.......

I attended the Shrewsbury event, where I learnt Gareth, that your friend Angus has moved back to Scotland and it was suggested that SARPA was Chairmanless again...

The On the train session focussed purely on the role of the second person........we all knew where it was heading....

 

[Gareth Marston]

I attended the Shrewsbury event, where I learnt Gareth, that your friend Angus has moved back to Scotland and it was suggested that SARPA was Chairmanless again...

The On the train session focussed purely on the role of the second person........we all knew where it was heading....

Ifor Morris is Acting Chairman of SARpA until its AGM in October. He's going to the Aberystwyth event as are several SARPA members. SARPA is very much active still and has Arriva UK bid team coming to its meeting in Newtown on Tuesday.

I booked Angus on the Caledonian sleeper last week he's back in Mid Wales at moment tying up loose ends.

Well DOO away from Valleys lines would be a recipe for mass fare invasion. Also who pays to alter 158's etc?

 

[jamess]

Ifor Morris is Acting Chairman of SARpA until its AGM in October. He's going to the Aberystwyth event as are several SARPA members. SARPA is very much active still and has Arriva UK bid team coming to its meeting in Newtown on Tuesday.

I booked Angus on the Caledonian sleeper last week he's back in Mid Wales at moment tying up loose ends.

Well DOO away from Valleys lines would be a recipe for mass fare invasion. Also who pays to alter 158's etc?

Thanks for the update regarding SARPA.

TfW only put u data collectors for the event. No one like James Price there They were unable to answer any questions, but left notebooks on the tables for us to leave questions and an email address, so that someone in the know could come back to us.

No specific routes for DOO were mentioned. We were just asked to write down what we saw as the role for the second member of staff on the train...

I met with one of the other bidders this week and they expressed concern that the Arriva bid team was in attendance at these stakeholder meetings at it was a conflict of interests in their view,

 

[Gareth Marston]

Thanks for the update regarding SARPA.

TfW only put u data collectors for the event. No one like James Price there They were unable to answer any questions, but left notebooks on the tables for us to leave questions and an email address, so that someone in the know could come back to us.

No specific routes for DOO were mentioned. We were just asked to write down what we saw as the role for the second member of staff on the train...

I met with one of the other bidders this week and they expressed concern that the Arriva bid team was in attendance at these stakeholder meetings at it was a conflict of interests in their view,

I'll speak with people who are in Aber and see who turns up there. Abeilio have been to a SARPA mtg recently as well.

 

[impster]

Yes there were Arriva reps at the Shrewsbury event. But, in fairness the event is open to anyone who books a place on them. I would say it's down to the organisers to vet the attendance list prior to the event taking place.

I also think that being asked to put buttons in one of three jars is probably not the type of thing that is appropriate for a consultation of such importance.

As for no notes being taken at these events, I think that is simply unprofessional. As part of the consultation process you would think that these events would be carefully recorded. If you do attend Aberystwyth tomorrow, or one of the subsequent events, I would challenge them on the above.

Incidentally, I also know for a fact that there have been representatives from the DfT (attending almost 'in cognito'!) at at least one of the events so far who apparently have serious concerns at WG/TfW's managing of the whole franchise process so far.

Needless to say they are keeping a very keen eye on due process...

 

[Gareth Marston]

Yes there were Arriva reps at the Shrewsbury event. But, in fairness the event is open to anyone who books a place on them. I would say it's down to the organisers to vet the attendance list prior to the event taking place.

I also think that being asked to put buttons in one of three jars is probably not the type of thing that is appropriate for a consultation of such importance.

As for no notes being taken at these events, I think that is simply unprofessional. As part of the consultation process you would think that these events would be carefully recorded. If you do attend Aberystwyth tomorrow, or one of the subsequent events, I would challenge them on the above.

Incidentally, I also know for a fact that there have been representatives from the DfT (attending almost 'in cognito'!) at at least one of the events so far who apparently have serious concerns at WG/TfW's managing of the whole franchise process so far.

Needless to say they are keeping a very keen eye on due process...

This particular consultation should not produce anything that WG/TfW shouldn't know already its largely "pretend process". WG has had its ears bent from all quarters regarding the failings of the current franchise for well over a decade - I was doing it over a decade ago including two meetings with then WG Ministers. WG did a consultation about 18 months ago and got over a hundred reply's from RUG's/Local Authorities both side of border etc many of which were well thought out, articulate and comprehensive. WG will have to be spectacularly incompetent not to pick up the key issues for all lines with the information that's been fed to it already.

This plus the fact they should have an idea of the budget they want to spend should have seen a ready made spec given to the bidders. So the current farce with TfW starting from scratch and apparently allowing bidders to come up with ideas beggars belief. They agreed to the South Wales Metro in principle 4 years ago and have had maps out for years - just how hard is matching your expected budget to a phased approach?

Asking the public lollipop questions and getting bidders to come up with ideas without an idea of budget apparently is not going to provide a magic solution.

 

[jamess]

Yes there were Arriva reps at the Shrewsbury event. But, in fairness the event is open to anyone who books a place on them. I would say it's down to the organisers to vet the attendance list prior to the event taking place.

I also think that being asked to put buttons in one of three jars is probably not the type of thing that is appropriate for a consultation of such importance.

As for no notes being taken at these events, I think that is simply unprofessional. As part of the consultation process you would think that these events would be carefully recorded. If you do attend Aberystwyth tomorrow, or one of the subsequent events, I would challenge them on the above.

Incidentally, I also know for a fact that there have been representatives from the DfT (attending almost 'in cognito'!) at at least one of the events so far who apparently have serious concerns at WG/TfW's managing of the whole franchise process so far.

Needless to say they are keeping a very keen eye on due process...

I found some buttons in my jacket pocket the other day. You have just reminded me where they came from!!! That shows how relevant we thought that activity to be!

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Anyone raised Carmarthen to Aberystwyth yet ?



(Runs for cover)

 

[jamess]

This particular consultation should not produce anything that WG/TfW shouldn't know already its largely "pretend process". WG has had its ears bent from all quarters regarding the failings of the current franchise for well over a decade - I was doing it over a decade ago including two meetings with then WG Ministers. WG did a consultation about 18 months ago and got over a hundred reply's from RUG's/Local Authorities both side of border etc many of which were well thought out, articulate and comprehensive. WG will have to be spectacularly incompetent not to pick up the key issues for all lines with the information that's been fed to it already.

This plus the fact they should have an idea of the budget they want to spend should have seen a ready made spec given to the bidders. So the current farce with TfW starting from scratch and apparently allowing bidders to come up with ideas beggars belief. They agreed to the South Wales Metro in principle 4 years ago and have had maps out for years - just how hard is matching your expected budget to a phased approach?

Asking the public lollipop questions and getting bidders to come up with ideas without an idea of budget apparently is not going to provide a magic solution.

The bidder that I was with last Friday believed it to be a very socially inclusive franchise. Expect to see service increases on the HoWL was a key message.

Do you reckon that the Cambrian now has a good chance of an hourly service now?

 

[Gareth Marston]

Anyone raised Carmarthen to Aberystwyth yet ?



(Runs for cover)

We'll see if their supporters are out in force in Aberystwyth tomorrow!

suprsingly enough theChairman of Carno Station Action Group wants SARPA to agenda an item about Carno station for Tuesday's SARPA mtg which has someone from Arrivas bid team coming.

 

[Gareth Marston]

The bidder that I was with last Friday believed it to be a very socially inclusive franchise. Expect to see service increases on the HoWL was a key message.

Do you reckon that the Cambrian now has a good chance of an hourly service now?

Logically it's an easy next step but WG obsession with road construction means that the rail budget will be squeezed. A partial Metro lite with an hourly Cardiff to Holyhead flagship service with everything else as is now is still something that could be served up.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

We'll see if their supporters are out in force in Aberystwyth tomorrow!

suprsingly enough theChairman of Carno Station Action Group wants SARPA to agenda an item about Carno station for Tuesday's SARPA mtg which has someone from Arrivas bid team coming.

That was clearly a tongue in cheek question ! - whilst Bow Street looks a runner , (subject to pathing and of course a revenue protection strategy) , Carno would appear to me as a pipe dream and of little overall benefit in the longer or even mid term.

Anything on better / more services Mach- Barmouth in the high season ?

 

[Gareth Marston]

That was clearly a tongue in cheek question ! - whilst Bow Street looks a runner , (subject to pathing and of course a revenue protection strategy) , Carno would appear to me as a pipe dream and of little overall benefit in the longer or even mid term.

Anything on better / more services Mach- Barmouth in the high season ?

Bow St or any other reopened intermediate station will make the timetable unworkable without further infrastructure work. Everyone I speak to who actually works the line agrees.
it's a local authority jump on the bandwagon project. ceredigions claim that commuters will park up at Bow St buy tickets get the train into the centre of the town and then walk back inland to National Library/university/ Welsh government /Ceredigion CC buildings is utter nonsense. no one will want Cambrian trains turning up late in the West Midlands so a village station can be reopened on the edge of Cardigan Bay. Ceredigion insisted on the 0624 Shrewsbury to Aberystwyth because there was demand for commuting to Aber from the upper Severn valley nearly two years on these commuters have failed to materialise.

 

[krus_aragon]

Anyone raised Carmarthen to Aberystwyth yet ?



(Runs for cover)

Shurely that's razed Carmarthen to Aberystwyth?

 

[gareth950]

Notice how a new advert, 'One Arriva' has appeared on the front page of the ATW website, promoting how far you can travel with all of the Arriva group bus and rail companies across the UK, explicitly listing what all these great companies are.

Along with adverts like this and timetable enhancement announcements recently, there's not a franchise award coming up is there? :roll:

 

[jamess]

We'll see if their supporters are out in force in Aberystwyth tomorrow!

suprsingly enough theChairman of Carno Station Action Group wants SARPA to agenda an item about Carno station for Tuesday's SARPA mtg which has someone from Arrivas bid team coming.

ATW's former spin doctor from Degwanwy is who will be attending.....I saw him only today!

 

[jamess]

Bow St or any other reopened intermediate station will make the timetable unworkable without further infrastructure work. Everyone I speak to who actually works the line agrees.
it's a local authority jump on the bandwagon project. ceredigions claim that commuters will park up at Bow St buy tickets get the train into the centre of the town and then walk back inland to National Library/university/ Welsh government /Ceredigion CC buildings is utter nonsense. no one will want Cambrian trains turning up late in the West Midlands so a village station can be reopened on the edge of Cardigan Bay. Ceredigion insisted on the 0624 Shrewsbury to Aberystwyth because there was demand for commuting to Aber from the upper Severn valley nearly two years on these commuters have failed to materialise.

Gareth

Is an hourly timetable workable with the current infrastructure? Angus was adamant that the loop at Westbury needs to go in, before this can happen....My maths tells me that loop would be surplus to requirement....

 

[Llanigraham]

Gareth

Is an hourly timetable workable with the current infrastructure? Angus was adamant that the loop at Westbury needs to go in, before this can happen....My maths tells me that loop would be surplus to requirement....

My friends at Machy say that an hourly is quite possible, on their side, but the problem would be with the units

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Gareth

Is an hourly timetable workable with the current infrastructure? Angus was adamant that the loop at Westbury needs to go in, before this can happen....My maths tells me that loop would be surplus to requirement....

The ex Divisional Per Way Manager insisted (good man in all respects) that Westbury loop (as was) a hinderance to the timetable. !

Ex Operational Staff I spoke to insist that Bow Street would be a disaster for performance ....

 

[Gareth Marston]

ATW's former spin doctor from Degwanwy is who will be attending.....I saw him only today!

I remember him in FNW days!

 

[Gareth Marston]

Gareth

Is an hourly timetable workable with the current infrastructure? Angus was adamant that the loop at Westbury needs to go in, before this can happen....My maths tells me that loop would be surplus to requirement....

The current tt works well on a daily basis, your talking about bolting 3/4 extra trains each way on to it in the same pattern. There's about 12 minutes turnaround in Aberystwyth in the working tt. Any less such as squeezing in a stop at Bow St will destroy any margin.

Of course singallying failures at Wolverhampton and Tresspassers on the line at International import delays which are hard to recover from. That's were your extra passing places are needed.

 

[Gareth Marston]

The ex Divisional Per Way Manager insisted (good man in all respects) that Westbury loop (as was) a hinderance to the timetable. !

Ex Operational Staff I spoke to insist that Bow Street would be a disaster for performance ....

Agree re Bow St.

Westbury was a RETB black spot I've shunted the length of the DOWN loop playing hunt the signal more than once.