Arriva Rail North DOO

[Bletchleyite]

More Shortcut Trained office staff. One day this will result in someone getting seriously hurt

Probably less likely than them getting seriously hurt on the roads when they have to drive or cycle when no service is operated.

The railway is very safe. Make it slightly less safe and it is still safer than using a car or cycling.

 

[scrapy]

Yes I watched one of these office staff be traction trained on a 156. Was done during a 5 minute turnaround. Was basically shown door controls. Told that they are very similar to the 150/2 although not given an opportunity to try them out. Told (not shown) where the wheelchair ramp was. Told if somebody locked in toilet to fiddle about with lock at top of door if that didn't work to get the driver (so driver would effectively be doing guards job if someone locked in). That was it.

No mention of emergency equipment cupboard location or anything else they may need in an emergency.

 

[Darren R]

I agree - i think that given the circumstances Northern actually did well with the last strike. Obviously it wasn't a full service but my sense is that the main commuter routes had a limited service. It is frustrating for those who use the stations that were omitted but if you have limited resources you need to make tough decisions.

It is interesting that they seem to be running more trains (later)next weekend - we will see what happens.

It is of course one thing to plan for a one day and one off event - the bigger test will come the longer action goes on for or if we have multi day events.

I'm not sure where you get the information from that Northern are planning to run more trains next Saturday than they did during the last strike. According to Northern's website "On a bumper day of sporting activity – including the Grand National at Aintree Racecourse and popular football fixtures – we expect to run 822 trains, more than 32 per cent of our normal services." Northern claimed to have run about 40% of services during the last strike. Of course some of us would point out that what Northern's PR people meant was that they managed to run 40% of the total number of trains that they would normally run. Call me pedantic, but that's not even close to being the same thing.

There may be some earlier and later services running this time round, but there are also fewer routes that will see trains this Saturday, and the overall number of trains being run seems to be lower too; even by Northern's own admission.

 

[455driver]

However taking shortcuts to make a company look good will eventually end up with an "incident".

What do you mean 'eventually'?
There have been incidents nearly every time backroom staff have covered for guards, luckily there was plenty of room under the carpet for them to be 'filed'.

 

[WatcherZero]

I'm not sure where you get the information from that Northern are planning to run more trains next Saturday than they did during the last strike. According to Northern's website "On a bumper day of sporting activity – including the Grand National at Aintree Racecourse and popular football fixtures – we expect to run 822 trains, more than 32 per cent of our normal services." Northern claimed to have run about 40% of services during the last strike. Of course some of us would point out that what Northern's PR people meant was that they managed to run 40% of the total number of trains that they would normally run. Call me pedantic, but that's not even close to being the same thing.

There may be some earlier and later services running this time round, but there are also fewer routes that will see trains this Saturday, and the overall number of trains being run seems to be lower too; even by Northern's own admission.

Policy seems to be the opposite this time around at least on the west side, don't even attempt to run a service (no trains running after grand national) so as not to attract demand from hopeful punters that cannot be met.

 

[bramling]

Probably less likely than them getting seriously hurt on the roads when they have to drive or cycle when no service is operated.

The railway is very safe. Make it slightly less safe and it is still safer than using a car or cycling.

You're right, however complacency is a dangerous thing. Despite all the layers of rules, procedures and technical safeguards present on the railway, it's still possible for things to go wrong surprisingly easily and quickly when the right set of circumstances comes together. One thing can lead to another, as can be read about in many historical accident reports.

 

[LowLevel]

What do you mean 'eventually'?
There have been incidents nearly every time backroom staff have covered for guards, luckily there was plenty of room under the carpet for them to be 'filed'.

Agreed! I don't think people actually realise how long it takes to become comfortable working as a guard after you qualify, and that's working full time. Consequently any 5 minute wonder course generally leaves them hopelessly ill equipped for dealing with out of course events and the drivers hate working with them so are quite happy to drop them in it to get rid.

I also feel sorry for some of them but others don't take it seriously and see it as a fun day out of the office - having come across some of the horror stories only operational staff are ever allowed to work any element of my train. I'll grudgingly stretch a point to the likes of driver and other operational managers etc to keep my head from being shot off as a martyr but HR and marketing managers, and managers from other TOCs who have no business being there can forget it.

If they drop a clanger as the booked guard I'll still be dragged through the investigation and I'm not interested in that in aid of helping them cover me during a strike!

Incidentally I hope any of these 'emergency guards' wishing to travel on our trains on Saturday have been supplied with correct and legal working diagrams and the appropriate travel pass as the requirement to pay for a ticket often offends.

 

[northwichcat]

It is interesting that they seem to be running more trains (later)next weekend - we will see what happens.

They will actually be running a lower percentage of services next time and as there aren't the peak time extras on Saturdays that probably means, on average, around 1 less return working on each line. However, with all the additional services on Chat Moss which didn't run last time in practice it'll be more than 1 return working on most lines.

 

[northwichcat]

More Shortcut Trained office staff. One day this will result in someone getting seriously hurt and then the s**t will hit thye fan and quite rightly so. The trouble is for anyone who is management it is in their contracts to do this so called strike busting so most Traincrew do not actually blame them as we know they have no choice otherwise they face being disciplined. However taking shortcuts to make a company look good will eventually end up with an "incident". Their lack of proper training and experience makes them a danger but like I have said they bdo not have a choice.

Logically they should be trained by a senior guard and have to work some services under the supervision of a fully qualified guard before being allowed to go out on their own. However, as we're talking about providing cover during industrial action not cover during a temporary staff shortage I can't see union members agreeing to do that.

 

[Carlisle]

They will actually be running a lower percentage of services .

Yes, I notice the absence of any Carlisle -Newcastle services on this strike day

 

[northwichcat]

Policy seems to be the opposite this time around at least on the west side, don't even attempt to run a service (no trains running after grand national) so as not to attract demand from hopeful punters that cannot be met.

Strange that they are running more services than they operated on the last strike day in to Liverpool but saying their services can't be used for getting home. This means punters from Wigan will have no problem getting a train in to Liverpool but coming back they'd have to get a train to Warrington Central and then walk to Bank Quay to get a train to Wigan.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Strange that they are running more services than they operated on the last strike day in to Liverpool but saying their services can't be used for getting home. This means punters from Wigan will have no problem getting a train in to Liverpool but coming back they'd have to get a train to Warrington Central and then walk to Bank Quay to get a train to Wigan.

I suspect it's to get numbers down a bit so they don't end up with hundreds of people standing trying to get on a 2-car Pacer on the last train.

 

[ItsGrimUpNorth]

Yes, I notice the absence of any Carlisle -Newcastle services on this strike day

Four services each direction running.

Dep: Carlisle - 1028 1135 1436 1628
Dep: Newcastle - 0924 1223 1424 1925

 

[Starmill]

Personally I think its crazy that they are allowed to leave so many stations with almost no service. At almost every single one of their stations there is the option to run a replacement bus, arrange for tickets to be accepted on local buses or arrange for stops from another train. Yet at so many stations, none of these applied. They did not even bother to offer a list of stations which have an Arriva Bus service nearby.

They also tried to tell people with AP NORTHERN ONLY tickets that if there were no trains they cannot travel and must apply for a refund, which may be a breach of their contract.

They have failed to arrange travel on alternative days for connecting passengers with other TOCs, which was something that Southern achieved even during their driver strikes.

This time around, Northern have posted on their website that Metrocard holders are not entitled to 'Delay Repay' which is a breach of their 'customer promise', their franchise agreement and the NRCoT.

What about season ticket holders with multi-modal tickets issued on behalf of a PTE?

Customers holding multi-modal season tickets issued on behalf of a PTE i.e. Merseytravel Trio / RailPass, TfGM Countycard, Metro (WYPTE) Mcard / Metrocard and Travel South Yorkshire (SYPTE) SY Connect+ / Travelmaster Gold etc are NOT entitled to claim for compensation via Delay Repay.

The information was up well in advance? A week or so at most and it was still changing in the few days before. Hardly helpful to people who've already booked tickets, especially because the information changed so many times.

Finally, perhaps the one good thing about the last Strike was the acceptance of tickets on Metrolink. The information changed several times but at least on the day any old ticket was being accepted. This time there will be no ticket acceptence on Metrolink:

Please note Northern tickets will not be accepted on Manchester Metrolink services.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

Logically they should be trained by a senior guard and have to work some services under the supervision of a fully qualified guard before being allowed to go out on their own. However, as we're talking about providing cover during industrial action not cover during a temporary staff shortage I can't see union members agreeing to do that.

That approach is pretty much "making it up as you go along". The Conductor's initial training course takes three months, though you could reduce that by about three weeks if you ignore ticketing, and is very systematically structured. It also includes a good deal of on-the-job experience throughout the course. Qualifying then requires candidates to pass a full on-train assessment as well as sitting the (computerised) rules exam: this pass out takes the best part of a full day in itself. And even after qualifying new conductors continue to undergo additional assessments.

There is of course a small number of office staff who have full conductor competence thanks to their own role, particularly Conductor Managers and Conductor Standards Managers, as well as others who have held it previously and opt to keep it up by their own efforts such as keeping their own Rulebook up to date, attending Conductors' Safety Briefings and working a shift every two or three months. Traincrew generally know who these people are and would not contest their competence to fill in on strike days. But those who have had just a single day's training would very quickly find themselves out of their depth at the first sign of operational difficulties. It's only a matter of time before the RAIB have to report on something arising from the use of such staff at which point I would expect the TOC and its directors to come under very serious public pressure and perhaps even prosecution. I very much doubt that any TOC's Safety Case allows for the pre-planned use of staff in this manner.

 

[Carlisle]

Four services each direction running.

Dep: Carlisle - 1028 1135 1436 1628
Dep: Newcastle - 0924 1223 1424 1925

Cheers, I stand corrected

 

[boing_uk]

All I know is that Heart summed it up quite nicely. "The strike mainly revolves around who opens and closes the doors".

Also, from what I could hear from the poor souls waiting for Rail Replacement in Blackburn, and some of the people I know who happen to have been affected is that the general attitude isnt favourable toward the guards "plight".

Strike action on a role which is clearly "on its way out" in the traditional sense isnt sensible, nor does it strengthen the case for keeping the status quo. In fact, it probably goes the other way. £DOO isnt proven to be less safe, so lets find a way to marginalise a disruptive subset of the operational staff" is probably the undertone of thinking right now by TPTB.

And who can blame them!

 

[Smidster]

This time around, Northern have posted on their website that Metrocard holders are not entitled to 'Delay Repay' which is a breach of their 'customer promise', their franchise agreement and the NRCoT.

Off topic but this is a Northern Policy I think is deeply unfair. They claim that is is a "multi-modal" ticket so they are not liable as you have options.

Now if we ignore the fact that for my commute I don't have any practical options there have been occasions where there have been issues during the journey. If you are stuck on a train that has failed between stations you don't have any options except wait! In those circumstances it seems wrong that Northern play the get out of jail free card.

 

[northwichcat]

Personally I think its crazy that they are allowed to leave so many stations with almost no service. At almost every single one of their stations there is the option to run a replacement bus, arrange for tickets to be accepted on local buses or arrange for stops from another train. Yet at so many stations, none of these applied. They did not even bother to offer a list of stations which have an Arriva Bus service nearby.

In the North West replacement buses will be hard to source next Saturday as a lot of drivers will already be booked on to do work relating to Aintree.

I do think the priority should be ensuring nowhere is cut off or almost cut off as a result of the strike.

Finally, perhaps the one good thing about the last Strike was the acceptance of tickets on Metrolink. The information changed several times but at least on the day any old ticket was being accepted. This time there will be no ticket acceptence on Metrolink:

Last time they said no ticket acceptance on Metrolink, then they said ticket acceptance on Metrolink, then they changed the ticket acceptance conditions so it only applied for weekly or longer season tickets.

 

[Starmill]

I asked about my Anytime ticket to Patricroft and they said it was fine for use by Metrolink from Piccadilly to Eccles. I agree that they changed it again and again though so nobody really knew where they stood.

 

[ANorthernGuard]

All I know is that Heart summed it up quite nicely. "The strike mainly revolves around who opens and closes the doors".

Also, from what I could hear from the poor souls waiting for Rail Replacement in Blackburn, and some of the people I know who happen to have been affected is that the general attitude isnt favourable toward the guards "plight".

Strike action on a role which is clearly "on its way out" in the traditional sense isnt sensible, nor does it strengthen the case for keeping the status quo. In fact, it probably goes the other way. £DOO isnt proven to be less safe, so lets find a way to marginalise a disruptive subset of the operational staff" is probably the undertone of thinking right now by TPTB.

And who can blame them!

You really do not have a clue what the Guards role is do you? opening and closing doors...slightly more to it than that.

 

[HH]

You really do not have a clue what the Guards role is do you? opening and closing doors...slightly more to it than that.

You're being a bit unfair. He never said that's all guards do, he said the dispute was being characterised as being about who opens and closes the doors, which on the face of it is true. Trouble is, putting it in those terms makes it sound like an old-fashioned demarcation dispute, which it certainly isn't.

RMT's and the guard's problem is that saying it's all about the safety is a hard sell to the uninformed, when "experts" are saying that it's safe and saying how many lines are running DOO already.

 

[yorksrob]

Personally I think its crazy that they are allowed to leave so many stations with almost no service. At almost every single one of their stations there is the option to run a replacement bus, arrange for tickets to be accepted on local buses or arrange for stops from another train. Yet at so many stations, none of these applied. They did not even bother to offer a list of stations which have an Arriva Bus service nearby.

I note from the emergency timetable that they're running a service through Normanton but not bothering to stop it. Typical of the attitude of every organisation involved in running the railway to the town.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I note from the emergency timetable that they're running a service through Normanton but not bothering to stop it. Typical of the attitude of every organisation involved in running the railway to the town.

Is it for timing reasons? The Barrow line shuttles last time were quite tightly timed with almost no turnaround, which I assume was the reason for missing Kents Bank/Cark on a couple of journeys, as I can't imagine any other reason for doing that when it was just one pair of 156s shuttling back and forth.

 

[yorksrob]

Is it for timing reasons? The Barrow line shuttles last time were quite tightly timed with almost no turnaround, which I assume was the reason for missing Kents Bank/Cark on a couple of journeys, as I can't imagine any other reason for doing that when it was just one pair of 156s shuttling back and forth.

I doubt it. I suspect that it's the same reason they prioritise Barnsley passengers getting to their destination two minutes earlier, rather than providing an adequate service to Normanton, which hasn't seen any improvement in over thirty years.

 

[northwichcat]

Is it for timing reasons? The Barrow line shuttles last time were quite tightly timed with almost no turnaround, which I assume was the reason for missing Kents Bank/Cark on a couple of journeys, as I can't imagine any other reason for doing that when it was just one pair of 156s shuttling back and forth.

I doubt it. I suspect that it's the same reason they prioritise Barnsley passengers getting to their destination two minutes earlier, rather than providing an adequate service to Normanton, which hasn't seen any improvement in over thirty years.

The omission of Normanton, Chapeltown, Elsecar, Wombwell and Darton is to provide a mainly hourly service from the other stations (half-hourly from Castleford) without needing an additional diagram.

Normanton tickets will be accepted on the 189 bus which runs every 10 minutes to Castleford, so Normanton will do a lot better than many other towns on the strike day.

 

[Spartacus]

RMT's and the guard's problem is that saying it's all about the safety is a hard sell to the uninformed, when "experts" are saying that it's safe and saying how many lines are running DOO already.

Those 'experts' always omit how those lines tend to have fully staffed stations, but Northerns are mostly a mix of unstaffed and staffed part time.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Those 'experts' always omit how those lines tend to have fully staffed stations, but Northerns are mostly a mix of unstaffed and staffed part time.

Staffed yes, but not necessarily with dispatchers. A member of staff in the ticket office is not going to do anything realistically (other than flog tickets).

 

[northwichcat]

Those 'experts' always omit how those lines tend to have fully staffed stations, but Northerns are mostly a mix of unstaffed and staffed part time.

It also gets overlooked that 'Northern Connect' stations will be staffed at all times when 'Northern Connect' services are operating. So if Northern Connect operates on a line from 06:30 to 20:30 and the last two services are normal Northern ones than there will be staffing between 06:30 and 20:30. Given the staffing requirement and that most Northern Connect services will eventually be operated by brand new trains it's widely expected those will be the DCO services. Of course DCO services are supposed to have a second member of staff on board but there isn't a requirement to cancel them if the second member of staff is unavailable.

 

[northwichcat]

Staffed yes, but not necessarily with dispatchers. A member of staff in the ticket office is not going to do anything realistically (other than flog tickets).

At some Northern stations a barrow crossing can only be used if assisted by station staff and the only station staff is the person in the ticket office.

I'm not sure if it's something Northern are trailing at the moment but there have recently been instances where a member of ticket office staff has acted as a RPI alongside a STM contracted one at times when a lot of passengers are arriving.