Arriva Rail North DOO

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I would but sadly he never seems to be in his constituency when you want to hurl insults and pellets at him. However now he is with the London Evening Standard he will be too far away to throw the bulls**t back that he spews

Thanks for this information. I did not know that he was already in post at the Evening Standard. When did he officially take over that role that he was offered?

 

[northwichcat]

Thanks for this information. I did not know that he was already in post at the Evening Standard. When did he officially take over that role that he was offered?

He starts in May but joked on Monday that there would be no Evening Standard today as the publishing deadline had been missed by him being in the commons.

 

[ANorthernGuard]

Thanks for this information. I did not know that he was already in post at the Evening Standard. When did he officially take over that role that he was offered?

He was appointed 4 days ago according to the papers but it seems the ethics committee etc etc have looked into it so who knows. With the Tories anything is possible

 

[Andyh82]

8th April sounds like a strike date that the union will change at some point, for good publicity.

Indeed, this date will be cancelled, late enough to have caused many people to have made alternative arrangements for the Grand National, but it won't actually go ahead as for the rest of the area, striking on a Saturday won't make enough impact. That's my theory anyway.

 

[Andrew32]

They couldn't move the national date could could they?

Probably cost to much to rearrange everything.

 

[Solent&Wessex]

Indeed, this date will be cancelled, late enough to have caused many people to have made alternative arrangements for the Grand National, but it won't actually go ahead as for the rest of the area, striking on a Saturday won't make enough impact. That's my theory anyway.

Actually, my opinion is,that striking on a Saturday will have a lot of impact with people generally.

Monday to Friday is busy in the morning peak and busy in the afternoon peak, but less busy inbetween and very quiet in an evening. The passengers are generally the same passengers every day. So striking Mon to Fri all the time will only impact the same people all the time. And to get managers to work will be easy, they all work Monday to Friday too.

Saturdays, however, are busy all day long including right up in to the evening. And they are different people to those who travel midweek and different every weekend. There are far more drunks, irregular travellers, and all sorts of people who would be largely unaffected by strikes midweek. It will be harder to get as many managers to work and a temporary daytime only timetable would cause more problems than the same timetable run midweek.

 

[Smidster]

They couldn't move the national date could could they?

Probably cost to much to rearrange everything.

Not a chance for this type of industrial action

The National has been run on a different date in the past (when there was a bomb scare in 97) and I suspect there are contingencies in place for other things like bad weather but this wouldn't cause them to do anything like that.

I think this is a mistake from the RMT

 

[Kite159]

Maybe Mike "lots of" Cash wants to spend some of his large salary in to back a horse that's good for glue and nothing else

Striking on a Saturday won't affect the weekday commuters, but will affect the leisure travellers, people out for an evening meal & drink, families out for a day out. The sort which could turn around and say going by rail isn't worth it and hence will use private transport (which in itself is less safe than going by rail).

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

8th April sounds like a strike date that the union will change at some point, for good publicity.

Posting # 593 on the "RMT dispute on Merseyrail" thread says....

"RMT rep on Granada Reports has said that the members demanded to strike on Grand National Day to show how angry they are"

 

[WatcherZero]

You would be angry too if your sat at home watching and your horse comes in last. RMT are capturing the mood of their members :P

 

[WatcherZero]

This is good for a laugh

http://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2017/03/22/rail-m22.html

The Socialist Equality Party are calling on ASLEF members to reject the DOO agreement and call both ASLEF and the RMT Conservative sell outs with the RMT secretly working with the Government to axe 20,000 jobs.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

This is good for a laugh

http://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2017/03/22/rail-m22.html

The Socialist Equality Party are calling on ASLEF members to reject the DOO agreement and call both ASLEF and the RMT Conservative sell outs with the RMT secretly working with the Government to axe 20,000 jobs.

You couldn't make it up if you tried....

 

[HH]

The infighting between parties/factions at the edges of the political spectrum has always existed and probably always will; the disputes between them are far more heated than with those who are diametrically opposed. I suspect it's part of the very nature of those with more extreme views (you can see the same in religion too) - "my view is the only true view".

 

[northwichcat]

The infighting between parties/factions at the edges of the political spectrum has always existed and probably always will; the disputes between them are far more heated than with those who are diametrically opposed. I suspect it's part of the very nature of those with more extreme views (you can see the same in religion too) - "my view is the only true view".

I think religion is often used as an excuse for conflict rather than being the underlying reason, just look at Northern Ireland.

 

[northwichcat]

According to Tony Miles the RMT were invited to attend DCO planning meetings by Arriva but rejected the offer saying they just wanted to see Arriva's plan in writing on a piece of paper.

Obviously they want the initial plan to be one that their members will hate, rather than starting with a middle ground plan.

 

[FordFocus]

Obviously they want the initial plan to be one that their members will hate, rather than starting with a middle ground plan.

Can you expand on that?

 

[Carlisle]

Can you expand on that?

Probably a feeling that the RMT wouldn't be happy either with the competence levels proposed and/or a lack of an absolute cast iron assurance of manning every single train so would end up as as little more than a formality for continuing the dispute

 

[the sniper]

Obviously they want the initial plan to be one that their members will hate, rather than starting with a middle ground plan.

Or more obviously... The RMT's position has been to not engage with or support the implementation of DCO in any way. This was clear after Southern.

 

[northwichcat]

Can you expand on that?

If the RMT show their members a plan they hate then they'll think they've done a good job if they then come back with improved plans and highlight the differences.

 

[Moonshot]

If the RMT show their members a plan they hate then they'll think they've done a good job if they then come back with improved plans and highlight the differences.

Not sure why that would be.......at the moment there is nothing ( as I have mentioned a few times ) to go on. Its in everyones interest to see what a roadmap looks like. If RMT are refusing to attend invites to meetings, then they are doing rank and file members no favours whatsoever. RMT leadership are poor .....absloutely no question about that. Some guards have lost money uneccessarily imo by going out on strike.

 

[FordFocus]

If the RMT show their members a plan they hate then they'll think they've done a good job if they then come back with improved plans and highlight the differences.

Your a bit gloomy about the RMT approach but then again I was hardly expecting you to be full of praise for the unions

Seriously though I've seen this tactic used by companies a few times with disputes and the subsequent strike action. The company will only negotiate if the union calls off the strikes and so the union does that and they sit around the table only for the company to present an offer that they know the union and their members will reject. Basically wasting everyone's time and any trust between the two parties having broken down. From then on the union will want the cards been shown on the table prior to any meetings taking place. If the union believes there is a way forward, the strikes will be suspended and they can sit down and agree the finer points of details in the agreement.

If the company believe they have a good offer that they believe union members would accept then they are likely to actually post internally on what the offer was if the union fails to entertain the idea. GTR did that late last year and other TOCs have publicly posted their offer when discussions fail.

 

[muz379]

According to Tony Miles the RMT were invited to attend DCO planning meetings by Arriva but rejected the offer saying they just wanted to see Arriva's plan in writing on a piece of paper.

Obviously they want the initial plan to be one that their members will hate, rather than starting with a middle ground plan.

The RMT went into an initial meeting over DCO at northern and offered a scotrail deal with a guard on every train , drivers releasing doors and guards closing them .

The company rejected this but made no counter offer . At a following meeting the RMT then asked if the company could gurantee a guard on every service , and that the guard would be responsible for dispatching the service . The company declined to offer a guarantee of either .

I do not see how it is unreasonable for the RMT to now ask the company what it is they actually have planned and what better way for the company to give that information than in writing . Lets be honest I dont know anybody involved in this dispute who thinks that the company does not have advanced plans of routes and methods of operation . The company knows what the RMT wants , why dont the company tell the RMT what they want and then the members through the branch structure can feed back to the union their feelings on this .

Personally as a member I would rather have the plans given in writing and I am sure that this is in the unions best interests that way the company cannot accuse the union of twisting what was said at a meeting . I suspect however the company is scared that once they put these plans out Aslef will point out that they have yet to be consulted and that they also object to them . At the moment the feeling is very much that Drivers goodwill is something that Ariva want to preserve as long as possible . Probably because they know they are going to need this goodwill to actually meet their franchise obligations for new services and new rolling stock .

 

[northwichcat]

Surely the RMT read the ITT for the Northern franchise and know they can't give a Scotrail deal unless DfT and Rail North agree to change the franchise specification. When Grayling asked the RMT if he should get involved in the Southern dispute and try to help find a solution their response was only if you want even more strike action!

Maybe not having properly consulted with ASLEF is why they don't want to say too much to the RMT at this stage?

 

[4973]

If the RMT show their members a plan they hate then they'll think they've done a good job if they then come back with improved plans and highlight the differences.

A fairly standard negotiating tactic (and not just in industrial relations) - work out what you want and ask for more then fall back to your start point. Then the other party can feel (or represent to others) that they have won something too.

However without commenting on the rights or wrongs of the dispute I will say that what I have seen of Mick Cash's pronouncements suggests he would rather management won nothing and obviously so.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Surely the RMT read the ITT for the Northern franchise and know they can't give a Scotrail deal unless DfT and Rail North agree to change the franchise specification.

There are none so blind as those who will not see.

 

[muz379]

Surely the RMT read the ITT for the Northern franchise and know they can't give a Scotrail deal unless DfT and Rail North agree to change the franchise specification. When Grayling asked the RMT if he should get involved in the Southern dispute and try to help find a solution their response was only if you want even more strike action!

Maybe not having properly consulted with ASLEF is why they don't want to say too much to the RMT at this stage?

Even so the RMT could have taken the view that the detail of the franchise is not their concern as it is not them who is contractually obliged to fulfil that . And of course having changed substantially the position in Scotland through a campaign of negotiation and industrial action there is nothing to say the same cannot happen on Northern . Unlikely of course because the DFT seem to be more interested in having a drawn out dispute as on southern .

Again even if Northern have not consulted with ASLEF that is not the RMT's problem . If the company cannot provide any plans before they have consulted with ASLEF , well get this done . As far as I am aware the company or ASLF have had no talks about the implementation of DOO . Which is also frustrating for ASLEF because they too know that the company has advanced plans . As I said it feels as if the company is trying to put off providing the plans because they know ASLEF will go into dispute and pull rest days and the company cannot afford this .

 

[northwichcat]

Even so the RMT could have taken the view that the detail of the franchise is not their concern as it is not them who is contractually obliged to fulfil that . And of course having changed substantially the position in Scotland through a campaign of negotiation and industrial action there is nothing to say the same cannot happen on Northern . Unlikely of course because the DFT seem to be more interested in having a drawn out dispute as on southern .

Again even if Northern have not consulted with ASLEF that is not the RMT's problem . If the company cannot provide any plans before they have consulted with ASLEF , well get this done . As far as I am aware the company or ASLF have had no talks about the implementation of DOO . Which is also frustrating for ASLEF because they too know that the company has advanced plans . As I said it feels as if the company is trying to put off providing the plans because they know ASLEF will go into dispute and pull rest days and the company cannot afford this .

I'd guess the DCO section being omitted from the public version of the franchise agreement was because DfT wanted to see how the Southern dispute ended and then allow provision for revisions if something Southern did to solve the dispute wasn't allowed for in the Northern agreement. I get the impression the RMT said "We want a guarantee of two guards on all services by x or we'll strike", while ASLEF are just waiting for Arriva to act. Possibly the RMT think that by acting early they can keep industrial action going longer, while possibly ASLEF think that by waiting for Arriva to act it could postpone the introduction of DCO if it's left too late?

 

[muz379]

I'd guess the DCO section being omitted from the public version of the franchise agreement was because DfT wanted to see how the Southern dispute ended and then allow provision for revisions if something Southern did to solve the dispute wasn't allowed for in the Northern agreement.

It is commercially sensitive information so could also have effected the process of bidding for the contracts to build new trains and refurbish existing trains .

I suspect some of it would also effect bidders bidding for network rail projects to do with station works etc .

Either way the franchise is well into its first year now , the new trains are being built and the station works will already have contracts in place .

We pretty much know from the spec for the new trains that they plan to operate them DCO . What the RMT now wants to know is how exactly .

I get the impression the RMT said "We want a guarantee of two guards on all services by x or we'll strike", while ASLEF are just waiting for Arriva to act. Possibly the RMT think that by acting early they can keep industrial action going longer, while possibly ASLEF think that by waiting for Arriva to act it could postpone the introduction of DCO if it's left too late?

The RMT did go to a meeting asking for the gurantees we have already been over several times in this thread . As we know the company declined to offer those . I cannot see how given how fundamental those gurantees are to the RMT's position the RMT could then do anything but go into dispute over the lack of direct guarantees ?

Currently nothing has been done or said by the company that effects ASLEF members directly . The limited discussions so far with the RMT have centred around the role , responsibility and guarantee of a second member of staff whom it is presumed will be recognised by the RMT .

Personally my view is that the company are not putting the plans out because it knows that these plans directly effect ASLEF members and ASLEF will then have to get involved and if they are to remain true to their anti DOO position they will also go into dispute over the plans . The company does not want this because every time ASLEF go into dispute they suspend the sanction for rest day working which will hit the company big time .

 

[yorksrob]

I've just noticed that industrial action is planned in for Saturday 8'th April on Northern (I'm presuming in relation to the above dispute).

Does anyone know why they've chosen Saturday ? This seems highly unusual.

 

[Smidster]

I've just noticed that industrial action is planned in for Saturday 8'th April on Northern (I'm presuming in relation to the above dispute).

Does anyone know why they've chosen Saturday ? This seems highly unusual.

It is the date of the Grand National in Liverpool