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Liverpool Overhead Railway

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D1009

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This thread is starting to look as though it should be in the Railway History subforum.

As for Steve Rotheram, I believe it was he who was told by the Speaker at this week's Prime Minister's Questions to keep his shouting for the stands at Anfield.
 
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Joe Paxton

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This thread is starting to look as though it should be in the Railway History subforum.

As for Steve Rotheram, I believe it was he who was told by the Speaker at this week's Prime Minister's Questions to keep his shouting for the stands at Anfield.

I'm no expert on Mr Rotheram, but one was to damn every MP that has been reprimanded by the Speaker for exuberance then you aren't going to have that many MPs left!
 

Holly

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Most of the LOR was built on stilts if I remember correctly.
The big attraction was passing over the ends of the docks enabling passengers to view the Ocean liners, quite a treat in the 1950s.
Not sure it would have the same appeal for tourists these days.
Yes, LOR was mostly built on stilts directly over the Mersey Docks and Harbour Board lines used to connect the docks for freight haulage. So it had no trackbed as such. But, as others have said, quite a few points on the route have been built on. So reinstatement is not really feasible even if it were a good idea.

The thing that would make sense to build would be a DLR technology elevated railway to connect the airport to Liverpool South Parkway station. A similar link exists at Oakland airport, California. It could even be routed to provide tourists with high level views of the estuary, aeroplane museum and routed West of Speke Hall. Thus serving double duty - tourism as well as airport service.
 

507021

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The thing that would make sense to build would be a DLR technology elevated railway to connect the airport to Liverpool South Parkway station. A similar link exists at Oakland airport, California. It could even be routed to provide tourists with high level views of the estuary, aeroplane museum and routed West of Speke Hall. Thus serving double duty - tourism as well as airport service.

I agree, I think this is a good idea and one that would benefit a lot more people and be much more cost effective. Another alternative for a much needed link between LSP and LJLA which would be a bit cheaper is a tram-train link, which could possibly serve the New Mersey Retail Park as well.
 

NorthernSpirit

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A Merseytram network would be a better offering than wasting up to £100 million on a very expensive eyesore. What on earth is this MP thinking, save money not waste it on this white elephant.
 

STEVIEBOY1

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Would make a lot more sense to extend the Birkenhead tramway, it's a whole region he would be mayor of not just "Hodge City" need to think beyond L1 :D


Does the Birkenhead Tramway still exist and operate?

When did the Overhead Railway close, was it just one line that ran along the dockside?
 

AntoniC

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Does the Birkenhead Tramway still exist and operate?

When did the Overhead Railway close, was it just one line that ran along the dockside?

It does indeed still operate, and RailUK made a trip to it in 2015 (I think as I attended !).

The route isnt much, tje shed to Woodside Ferry Terminal and back.
 

8H

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Does the Birkenhead Tramway still exist and operate?

When did the Overhead Railway close, was it just one line that ran along the dockside?

The Birkenhead tram system was the first in Europe. What exists now could be extended easily further into the docks or into the excellent Birkenhead Park ( on the design of which New York Central Park is based and the 1st publicly funded park in the world) plenty of tourist interest here. The Wirral transport museum "shed" also houses several working trams and vintage local buses. Cheaper to do this scheme by far and lots to offer visitors.
 

Francis

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When I take visitors in to Liverpool, sometimes I drive them in down the Dock Road from Bootle to the centre, to give them a taste of industrial dereliction, abandoned docks, piles of scrap metal and vegetable oil processing factories. This is the route of the old LOR. Further south after Queen's Dock and Brunswick Dock there's only the Festival Gardens really. The LOR only ran as far as Dingle and Herculaneum Dock, never to Garston.
The only section where you would now get sufficient passenger traffic on a rebuilt LOR would be perhaps one mile north and south of the Pier Head. Very few people now live close to the waterfront - most of them are far closer to the Northern Line stations, or to the line out from Central to Hunts Cross.
In 1947 about 80,000 men worked on the docks. Now, although Liverpool is handling a heavier tonnage of freight than ever before, the workforce is a small fraction of its previous figure.

Better to spend some of £100 million (which we don't have!) removing the buffer stops at Ormskirk and Kirkby, giving Skelmersdale a proper station, and electrifying through to Preston, Wigan and Southport via Ormskirk and the Burscough curve.

Strange how the partial third-rail electrification, halting originally at Ormskirk, Hooton, Bidston and Kirkby, actually cut Liverpool off from much of its hinterland in rail terms - the old fast L&Y lines to Preston, Blackburn and Burnley, and Scotland; the L&Y fast route to Wigan, Bolton, Bury, Rochdale and Yorkshire, any trains to North Wales, Wrexham and the Marches.
The only fast lines out of Liverpool left were those to larger cities - Manchester, London and Birmingham. Apart from these, Liverpool became a trundling emu backwater, stopping all stations. The Halton curve and electrification to St Helens and Wigan has begun the reversal of this: it needs to continue further.
 

Scouseinmanc

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Does the Birkenhead Tramway still exist and operate?

When did the Overhead Railway close, was it just one line that ran along the dockside?

It closed on the 30th December 1956. With demolition commencing in September, the following year.

The LOR was the only elevated structure to run along the dockside. However, there were numerous ground level lines, worked by MD&HB locos that served each dock directly. It was because of these locos, which ultimately led to the demise of the LOR, as a result of smoke pollution mixed with rain water, corroding the structure above.
 

Bletchleyite

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I'd be in support of an overhead railway just about anywhere, purely because of the scarcity of them.

The Hamburger Hochbahn (actually the U3 "Ringlinie") is very resemblent of the Liverpool line. Indeed, in many ways the whole city is resemblent of Liverpool - probably the similar layout and common heritage - including the layout of its railways!

The interesting thing about the elevated part of the U3 is that at one point the U-bahn is above ground and the S-bahn below!
 

GRALISTAIR

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Better to spend some of £100 million (which we don't have!) removing the buffer stops at Ormskirk and Kirkby, giving Skelmersdale a proper station, and electrifying through to Preston, Wigan and Southport via Ormskirk and the Burscough curve.

Strange how the partial third-rail electrification, halting originally at Ormskirk, Hooton, Bidston and Kirkby, actually cut Liverpool off from much of its hinterland in rail terms ----- The Halton curve and electrification to St Helens and Wigan has begun the reversal of this: it needs to continue further.

Hear hear. :D
 

urbophile

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Better to spend some of £100 million (which we don't have!) removing the buffer stops at Ormskirk and Kirkby, giving Skelmersdale a proper station, and electrifying through to Preston, Wigan and Southport via Ormskirk and the Burscough curve.

Strange how the partial third-rail electrification, halting originally at Ormskirk, Hooton, Bidston and Kirkby, actually cut Liverpool off from much of its hinterland in rail terms - the old fast L&Y lines to Preston, Blackburn and Burnley, and Scotland; the L&Y fast route to Wigan, Bolton, Bury, Rochdale and Yorkshire, any trains to North Wales, Wrexham and the Marches.
The only fast lines out of Liverpool left were those to larger cities - Manchester, London and Birmingham. Apart from these, Liverpool became a trundling emu backwater, stopping all stations. The Halton curve and electrification to St Helens and Wigan has begun the reversal of this: it needs to continue further.

Well yes. But that (like the present Merseyrail) is all about serving the suburbs and hinterland; what Liverpool also needs is better urban transport. OK, the city centre is small and compact enough to be mostly walkable, but areas like the Baltic triangle and the north docks are being regenerated and are a hefty slog on foot from the centre, with lamentable or non-existent bus services. Bus services are focused on their outer destinations and the routes they take through the city centre are confusing and difficult to discover.

When the Merseytram project was abandoned, local politicians 'promised' (?) that the money set aside for that would be spent on improvements to the Merseyrail network, with the implication that things like the re-opening of the Wapping and Waterloo tunnels would be priorities. No point in asking for EU cash now, but we have the basics of a decent metro already and just a little share of the Northern Powerhouse pot of gold would make something very useful. But of course it will never happen.
 

Bletchleyite

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Better to spend some of £100 million (which we don't have!) removing the buffer stops at Ormskirk and Kirkby, giving Skelmersdale a proper station, and electrifying through to Preston, Wigan and Southport via Ormskirk and the Burscough curve.

The buffer stops at Kirkby are going to be removed and Merseyrail is going through to a "proper" station at Skem.

Re Ormskirk, I retain my view that reinstating both Curves but mothballing the direct line, running Merseyrail half-hourly to a new bay at Burscough Bridge (there's plenty of car park and industrial unit that could be used for one) and planning quality connections is the way to go. Preston to Burscough Bridge could be hourly with one unit (rather than the two that will be needed when it upgrades to hourly with the line as is), and money could be saved by plainlining Rufford and changing the crossings to either AHB or remotely-monitored.
 

Bletchleyite

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Well yes. But that (like the present Merseyrail) is all about serving the suburbs and hinterland; what Liverpool also needs is better urban transport. OK, the city centre is small and compact enough to be mostly walkable, but areas like the Baltic triangle and the north docks are being regenerated and are a hefty slog on foot from the centre, with lamentable or non-existent bus services. Bus services are focused on their outer destinations and the routes they take through the city centre are confusing and difficult to discover.

I'm not quite sure why the UK's total inability to do buses properly is used as a reason to build other modes of transport. What we need to do is to do buses properly.
 

urbophile

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I'm not quite sure why the UK's total inability to do buses properly is used as a reason to build other modes of transport. What we need to do is to do buses properly.

Well quite. The reason we don't is because of the obsession with privatisation and deregulation, which even Boris Johnson didn't seek to impose on London.

My point though is that there is plenty of potential for improving Merseyrail as well as the bus service. Though bringing back the overhead railway is a pointless piece of nostalgia as well as a visual intrusion on one of the best cityscapes in the world.
 

Bletchleyite

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Well quite. The reason we don't is because of the obsession with privatisation and deregulation, which even Boris Johnson didn't seek to impose on London.

True, though there's nothing stopping Merseytravel tendering specific non-commercial routes if they want, such as an "Eilbus" to the new north docks development from a Merseyrail station. The Soccerbus is a good long-running example of bus integration.

My point though is that there is plenty of potential for improving Merseyrail as well as the bus service

Yes, I'd agree there is, though running it to Preston probably isn't it - its big benefit is its simplicity and effectiveness as a city S-Bahn, not turning it into something more akin to Manchester's suburban hotch-potch. I do think it should go to Burscough and Skem, and possibly also Shotton, but probably no further.
 
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jbg

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Steve Rotherham MP for Walton, Liverpool and Metro Labour Mayoral Candidate has said that if he wins the election in May, Liverpool could get there overhead Railway back as a tourist attraction.

He said costings where around £70-100m depending on length of line through a public private partnership, with MerseyTravel overseeing a private operator to run the line.

Just like labour were going to re-nationalise the Railways if they won in '97. How did that go?
 

John Luxton

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Rebuilding the LOR even as a tourist attraction is a complete non starter. As a Tory I did have some respect for Steve Rotherham and thought he might be better than the current "Chairman Joe" who has also been full of crazy ideas.

But after I heard of the LOR plan a few months ago I know I must have been wrong and I guess Mr Rotherham has just turned out to be another loony lefty it's no idea other than appealing to people's nostalgia.
 

8A Rail

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Rebuilding the LOR even as a tourist attraction is a complete non starter. As a Tory I did have some respect for Steve Rotherham and thought he might be better than the current "Chairman Joe" who has also been full of crazy ideas.

But after I heard of the LOR plan a few months ago I know I must have been wrong and I guess Mr Rotherham has just turned out to be another loony lefty it's no idea other than appealing to people's nostalgia.

I dont think Steve Rotheram is a "looney lefty" - his profile suggests differently - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_Rotheram Remember not to tar everyone with the same brush just because they are Labour!

(yes I already agreed LOR is a daft idea, but stated that earlier in the thread)
 
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