New South Western franchise: Awarded to First/MTR

[30909]

No need for extra paths on the mainline as it'll surely just be an extension south of the current Haslemere stoppers.

This is logical and probably the only solution and cutting out either Woking or Guildford stops for the fast, perhaps alternate services to reach the target of -minus12 minutes.
Someone with better maths and understanding of diagraming can perhaps explain how 18 x 5 carriage 442s will make the difference? Surely you need 16 x5 just to maintain 2 fast trains an hour so what happens in the peaks 2x444 been sitting around in either Fratton or Clapham or to really irritate the Flour Graders (old term for Haslemere First Class Season Ticket holders) 3x450s?

 

[Goldfish62]

I'd wager the 458s are staying on the Reading road. Too much money coming in from 1st class gold cards past Staines to put 707s on; plus it's a long old journey.

All the news releases say that the Reading line is getting new trains. All the new trains will have toilets according to the info.

 

[Goldfish62]

Love how the BBC (and likely others) have gone with Hong Kong company in their headline.

Yes they do explain that MTR is working with (or 'helping') First, but for those who don't read clearly it's easy to misread.

Now it doesn't matter to most people, but for some it will matter a lot because it's yet another foreign company...

Not a single media outlet has grasped the fact that MTR already runs TFL/Crossrail and had 50% of the first LO concession.

 

[Goldfish62]

If there is no intention to remove Guards, it would be pointless enduring industrial action as an opener to the new franchise just to make minor tweaks. I would imagine things will either change drastically, or not at all.

Give door release to the drivers and turn all non-commercial guards into commercial guards. That's my ideal scenario anyway.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Not a single media outlet has grasped the fact that MTR already runs TFL/Crossrail and had 50% of the first LO concession.

That's probably because TfL services are regarded as "publicly owned", unlike DfT rail services.
People don't seem to be able to grasp that LO and Crossrail are profit generators for the operators, even if they do not take revenue risk.
It's the same for London Buses.
Somehow, Abellio on the side of a London bus is less enraging than Abellio on the side of a GA train.

Oddly, I haven't yet seen any outrage at the supposed future lack of competition between London and Exeter/Windsor/Reading because First will be running both franchises.

 

[HH]

Crossrail 2 is not yet funded or committed, and is at least 16 years in the future.

Quite. No-one is worried about what might happen with Crossrail 2 yet!

 

[SpacePhoenix]

If west of Poole services were only hourly to Weymouth (by the extension of the Portsmouth Harbour-Southampton services. Could both Poole-Waterloo (one fast, one semi fast) be 2x444 all the way?

 

[Goldfish62]

Any mention of the premium payments to the Treasury? I haven't seen anything so far.

It's in the DfT press release. £2.6bn NPV IIRC.

 

[Goldfish62]

That's probably because TfL services are regarded as "publicly owned", unlike DfT rail services.
People don't seem to be able to grasp that LO and Crossrail are profit generators for the operators, even if they do not take revenue risk.
It's the same for London Buses.
Somehow, Abellio on the side of a London bus is less enraging than Abellio on the side of a GA train.

Oddly, I haven't yet seen any outrage at the supposed future lack of competition between London and Exeter/Windsor/Reading because First will be running both franchises.

I'm sure there will be much "outrage", "anger" and "fury" to come.

 

[HH]

The TPE ITT say bidders could consider using DOO and First won it with a bid that will have a guard on every service.

South Western is not TransPennine. TP has aspirations of being an Intercity service and will become closer to one during the new franchise. SW Metro is a completely different kettle of fish.

 

[Goldfish62]

Quite. No-one is worried about what might happen with Crossrail 2 yet!

According to certain informed internal sources we may never need to worry about it....

 

[Carlisle]

Are you scaremongering? The only DOO First have had on their franchises was in operation before privatisation!

They extended DOO from Airdrie to Edinburgh but I believe that was only at the request of Transport Scotland rather than their own iniative to do so

 

[urpert]

It matched Stagecoach thinking and must have satisfied DfT. For whatever reason it doesn't match First's thinking, but the new units must also satisfy DfT. Surely this is the risk that the ROSCOs were always supposed to have to offset those nice, fat profits?

Where does this leave the 707s? Well, there's only one third rail franchise coming up in the near future. Whoever's on risk for the finance is going to have to put together an attractive offer I suggest...

All of this gives me hope that we might yet see the back of the Networkers!

 

[HH]

In the reactionary world we live in, people realising the new 707s are going and the old 442s will be back, it will not go down well.

Except the 442s will hardly be recognisable inside and won't perform like the old 442s either. And there's also Class 7xx trains replacing the 707s. DfT are getting more than they specified, so if people have complaints, that's where they should aim them.

 

[HH]

According to certain informed internal sources we may never need to worry about it....

Until someone coins the phrase, "London Powerhouse". Remember this is the railways; every idea has to come round a second (third, fourth...) time.

 

[HH]

Not a single media outlet has grasped the fact that MTR already runs TFL/Crossrail and had 50% of the first LO concession.

And is involved in further bids coming up and has also bid for other franchises in the past. They are an active player in the market and have been for years.

 

[abn444]

Oddly, I haven't yet seen any outrage at the supposed future lack of competition between London and Exeter/Windsor/Reading because First will be running both franchises.

I take it we don't know who is bidding for that franchise when it comes up for renewal in a couple of years. It would be funny if Stagecoach won that one.

 

[yorksrob]

I'm I the only one who thinks this looks a bit poor overall. Where's extra capacity for the Exeter route for starters. Looks like prospect of 158/159 replacement is at least 10 years away. Weymouth route gets a train to Portsmouth but what about London capacity?

You would hope the 442's will have a proper refurb including new traction equipment.

I share your concerns about the lack of an announcement on extra capacity west of Salisbury. We need to see the three carriage services in the day extended ASAP (although I'd be happy if this were achieved with additional cascaded 158's).

End of an era though - SWT always kept their trains in good condition.

 

[Roast Veg]

Oddly, I haven't yet seen any outrage at the supposed future lack of competition between London and Exeter/Windsor/Reading because First will be running both franchises.

The competition issues with the Northern franchise were exclusively down to bus/rail ticket pricing in some areas. Competition on the railways does not work in a destination for destination basis, the franchising system is responsible for that.

 

[Busaholic]

Until someone coins the phrase, "London Powerhouse". Remember this is the railways; every idea has to come round a second (third, fourth...) time.

Yes, and an ideal man to run it, 'London Through and Through' with a few spare minutes every month, particularly between 2 and 4 a.m., in return for a commensurate salary, of course. Expect a station very near to a certain upmarket home furnishings shop on the King's Road too, you know, the one whose rateable value has just gone down when all those surrounding it are soaring. In short, a veritable miracle worker.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

The competition issues with the Northern franchise were exclusively down to bus/rail ticket pricing in some areas. Competition on the railways does not work in a destination for destination basis, the franchising system is responsible for that.

I know that, but the public and a stubborn minority on this forum don't.
The MTR involvement may deflect such criticism this time.
The CMA will probably take an interest though, if only to remind DfT who's boss.

 

[yorksrob]

Oddly, I haven't yet seen any outrage at the supposed future lack of competition between London and Exeter/Windsor/Reading because First will be running both franchises.

We'll see what effect it has on the fares.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

We'll see what effect it has on the fares.

Extending First's 55-Plus fares to SWR would be useful (for those of a certain age...).

 

[341o2]

The problem is the prevalence of the 'chelsea tractor'. Every time one of these monsters is parked it throws out the whole row, because the bay width is just about big enough for a normal car. I've now taken to parking elsewhere than the station car park, where the bays are wide enough, so I'm not having to squeeze my car in, or come back and find I can't get in because one parked next to me.

I have no love for Chelsea tractors, but just about every car is bigger, especially consider the classic Mini and it's modern day counterpart

 

[tbtc]

Generally underwhelming.

More "make do and mend" for the Southern Region (inc retaining the oldest stock on the network whilst reintroduced redundant 442s) whilst Northern and Transpennine get brand new trains

Seriously though, its pretty thin gruel. Possibly because there's not a lot of scope to increase/extend services, Stagecoach have already had any easy/simple/cheap improvements...

...a "connecting the region/ non-London" improvement (even if the Weymouth - Portsmouth service may not be a frequent one, it sounds good to have some visible improvement that isn't just about Waterloo)...

...whilst many of the suggestions for 158/159 replacement are fanciful, I could see the logic in the DfT micro-managing something new for the South Western to ensure that there would be more "common or garden" DMUs to spread around the remaining franchises (in the way that they arranged for dozens of Bombardier EMUs for Southern, which then allowed units to be cascaded to the Thames Valley/ C2C etc).

Other than that... feels like a missed opportunity. I may need a new signature though.

If west of Poole services were only hourly to Weymouth (by the extension of the Portsmouth Harbour-Southampton services

Is the Portsmouth - Weymouth going to be as regular as hourly?

Or could it be a token daily service (which people are assuming the frequency of)?

Oddly, I haven't yet seen any outrage at the supposed future lack of competition between London and Exeter/Windsor/Reading because First will be running both franchises.

True - nobody working about monopolies or even a potential reduction in Waterloo - Bristol services (or at least an end to discounted fares on that route).

Or is all of the concern about monopolies just a problem if it allows people to complain about someone named "Beardie"?

Someone with better maths and understanding of diagraming can perhaps explain how 18 x 5 carriage 442s will make the difference?

Has anything been said about the remaining 442s? Half a dozen aren't being taken on by this new franchise, but would it be a case of discarding the six in worst condition? (or have I missed someone else's commitment to them... surely not the competing Open Access Waterloo service?)

 

[Starmill]

although I'd be happy if this were achieved with additional cascaded 158's.

Cascaded 158s!? Ha! You must be mad

 

[Class 170101]

£2.6bn over 7 years, which is rather less than many anticipated.

Still seems a lot to me for what looks like fewer improvements compared to some franchises. Looks similar to GA year for year though for payments.

 

[yorksrob]

Cascaded 158s!? Ha! You must be mad

Well, Scotrail have a few, and they get new stock every now and again ! You never know.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Cascaded 158s!? Ha! You must be mad

It'd arguably make more sense to parcel all the 158s and 159s off to ATW to allow them to become a single-class-of-unit operation on their long-distance stuff but with adequate capacity (e.g. all North Wales Coast trains 4-car and all Brum-Aber trains 6-car with 4 to Aber and 2 to Pwllheli). I was surprised not to see them released for that kind of reason, though I suppose ATW isn't DfT's problem now.

It's the 707s I don't get, there has to be a different plan for them in the DfT's mind.

 

[Uzair]

It's the 707s I don't get, there has to be a different plan for them in the DfT's mind.

Exactly my thoughts.