New South Western franchise: Awarded to First/MTR

[CyrusWuff]

I'm pretty sure Chiltern began as a BR management buy-out, supported by John Laing plc.
They eventually took control, before selling on to DB Regio.
DB then transferred it to Arriva.
So 3 changes of control (and a franchise rebid).
VWC has had 51% Virgin Group ownership throughout.

Being pedantic, Chiltern's immediate parent is still M40 Trains, just as it has been since February 1995!

From a licencing point of view, the change of parent company appears to have been inconsequential, and Chiltern are still running services under the original European Passenger Licence granted in April 1995 (as are VTWC), whereas the current SWT one dates from 2007.

 

[Matt Taylor]

having been told repeatedly that there’s no room on the main line for any extra services. Combining it with reduced journey times may be “brave” as they say.

No need for extra paths on the mainline as it'll surely just be an extension south of the current Haslemere stoppers.

 

[GodAtum]

I wonder how this will affect regular commuters?

 

[Morgsie]

Part of me is sad that Stagecoach did not retain this Franchise though I knew one day things would change. The devil is in the details and the questions that should be asked is A) can they deliver and B) Do there sums add up and make sense?

I do not know the details but I did notice a Pompey to Weymouth service which is a good idea as there is a through service. I wonder how this is going to be achieved and I presume this affects the timings to Weymouth and Bournemouth by transferring some station stops to this Pompey service?

Would it make more sense to extend the Southampton to Pompey service to Bournemouth?

 

[Muzer]

The problem on the Waterloo - Exeter line isn't the stock. 159's are OK for the route. The problem is that the existing loops west of Salisbury determine the frequency, and works on the basis that all trains will stop at virtually all stations, and the last train west of Yeovil leaves Waterloo at 8:20 pm.

The problem in the stock is that there isn't enough of it, not that it's bad for the route. In my experience the services to Salisbury/Exeter are among the first from Waterloo to be shortened towards the end of the evening peak, and in my experience during busy times for holidaymakers they're also the trains that need most the extra capacity.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

The Guardian quotes him:

More Trump-level untruths from Mick Cash.
The EU does NOT prohibit public ownership of rail operators, only that they should be subject to competitive tender like most public services.
It's a UK government policy to privatise rail services, and Brexit isn't going to change that one way or the other.

MTR Corporation is 76% owned by the Hong Kong government (not the "Chinese State") and is 24% in private hands.
It also has property, banking and telecoms interests in Hong Kong, and operates rail services in Stockholm and Australia at well as the UK.
It operates the TfL rail concession and will operate the Elizabeth line from later this year.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MTR_Corporation

Anyway, First Group will be in charge of the South Western franchise (70% ownership, MTR 30%).
No doubt Mick Cash had two press releases ready for the franchise announcement.
This one majors on UK taxpayers subsidising foreign railways.
The other one (if Stagecoach had won) would no doubt have contained the words "spivs and chancers" and his other regular insults about the people who keep his members employed and fund service improvements.

 

[Ianno87]

I'm pretty sure Chiltern began as a BR management buy-out, supported by John Laing plc.
They eventually took control, before selling on to DB Regio.
DB then transferred it to Arriva.
So 3 changes of control (and a franchise rebid).
VWC has had 51% Virgin Group ownership throughout.

Stagecoach may be taking the National Express view of losing the SWT franchise.
ie not worth it without a decent return.

Didn't Virgin WC become a management contract (not a franchise) for 5 years during the West Coast Route Modernisation?

 

[swt_passenger]

Part of me is sad that Stagecoach did not retain this Franchise though I knew one day things would change. The devil is in the details and the questions that should be asked is A) can they deliver and B) Do there sums add up and make sense?

I do not know the details but I did notice a Pompey to Weymouth service which is a good idea as there is a through service. I wonder how this is going to be achieved and I presume this affects the timings to Weymouth and Bournemouth by transferring some station stops to this Pompey service?

Would it make more sense to extend the Southampton to Pompey service to Bournemouth?

The ITT service spec (in spreadsheet form) didn't require them to run both present Weymouth services all the way to Weymouth. One of the Weymouth trains could be replaced beyond Poole by a stopper from Southampton. So it isn't necessarily a third train at Weymouth, or even a third train west of Southampton.

So it could be a combination of a second Portsmouth to Southampton fast service and part of the existing Poole stopper, and part of a Weymouth service, with the Waterloo - Southampton leg operated separately as it was in the past.

I expect a lot of smoke and mirrors but not much visible difference in individual stations frequencies west of Southampton - when all is eventually finalised.

 

[3141]

Im quite unsure as to why you think that the franchise after this First/MTR one would not want these trains and would be lying around someqhere out of use. Strange view

The reason for my "strange view" is that at some time in the future Crossrail 2 will take over several of the South Western suburban routes, and my understanding is that when that happens the likelihood is that the paths into Waterloo that become available will predominantly be used for additional long-distance services, for which stock that replaces 455/456/458/707 will mostly be unsuitable. But I'd agree if you said that I'd telescoped the timing, and that situation probably won't arise till some point into the franchise after the upcoming one.

 

[northwichcat]

And the other bidder might have had an entirely different viewpoint on these trains.

Indeed. We know Stagecoach looked at new stock but don't know if they included it in their bid. It could have been Stagecoach were looking more at the wider picture - it sounds like they want to keep the EMT franchise and that franchise could well utilise SWT's DMUs.

 

[swt class 450]

Well this is very disappointing. I have always found Stagecoach South West Trains to be by far the best TOC in the UK so it will really be a shame to see them go.

Putting the 442s back in to service on SWT is ludicrous. The 444s are bad enough with their unsuitable layout but the 442s are even worse with their very narrow doors at each ends of the coaches and limited disabled access. This is really a backwards step. Would they should really be doing is ordering more 350 / 360 / 450 / 700 / 707 style trains.

Another thing is when the 442s were originally with SWT they had full Guards panels which allowed the Guard to open and close the doors. The when they were sent to Govia they were converted to operate DOO and had the Guards panels replaced with new very basic panels which only have a close button and a signal button (they don't have open buttons or local door controls). I hope First will bring back the old full panels as otherwise they will probably try to use this as an excuse to convert to DOO.

I really worry that First are going to try to go DOO on this new franchise. At the moment Stagecoach have never been involved in any DOO operations. Where as First have run lots of DOO on a large amount of their franchises. If they try to bring DOO it will certainly cause GTR style chaos on SWT (maybe even worse the GTR). I hope they will keep Guards on 100% of trains and keep their duties exactly the same (rather then introducing Driver opens Guard closes operations or anything like that).

I also really hope First continue to call them Guards and don't use some ridiculous name like Conductor / Senior Conductor / Train Manager / Train Captain etc.

It will be crazy if the 707s get replaced seeing as they have just been ordered and are still in the process of entering service. That is such a waste of time and money. It is very disappointing that they have no plans to replace the 158s and 159s at the moment. These trains really need to be replaced. They have such an unsuitable layout and are getting quite old. It would be far better to spend money on replacing the 158s and 159s than replacing the 707s.

While First are much better than Govia they are still not really that good. They didn't do a good job at First Capital Connect and haven't really done a good job at First Great Western either. I just hope they don't mess up their new SWT operations.

 

[Ianno87]

The reason for my "strange view" is that at some time in the future Crossrail 2 will take over several of the South Western suburban routes, and my understanding is that when that happens the likelihood is that the paths into Waterloo that become available will predominantly be used for additional long-distance services, for which stock that replaces 455/456/458/707 will mostly be unsuitable. But I'd agree if you said that I'd telescoped the timing, and that situation probably won't arise till some point into the franchise after the upcoming one.

Crossrail 2 is not yet funded or committed, and is at least 16 years in the future.

 

[JamesTT]

I can see a new thread for potential DOO on SWT routes being created (perhaps it already exists)

Just a thought, what about ASLEF releasing a statement along the lines of if a route has no DOO trains on it then it will continue to have no DOO trains on it?

I look forward to seeing what is wrong with this suggestion

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Just a thought, what about ASLEF releasing a statement along the lines of if a route has no DOO trains on it then it will continue to have no DOO trains on it?
I look forward to seeing what is wrong with this suggestion

ASLEF don't run the railway.
The government does (and still will if it is nationalised).

 

[cactustwirly]

Well this is very disappointing. I have always found Stagecoach South West Trains to be by far the best TOC in the UK so it will really be a shame to see them go.

Putting the 442s back in to service on SWT is ludicrous. The 444s are bad enough with their unsuitable layout but the 442s are even worse with their very narrow doors at each ends of the coaches and limited disabled access. This is really a backwards step. Would they should really be doing is ordering more 350 / 360 / 450 / 700 / 707 style trains.

Another thing is when the 442s were originally with SWT they had full Guards panels which allowed the Guard to open and close the doors. The when they were sent to Govia they were converted to operate DOO and had the Guards panels replaced with new very basic panels which only have a close button and a signal button (they don't have open buttons or local door controls). I hope First will bring back the old full panels as otherwise they will probably try to use this as an excuse to convert to DOO.

I really worry that First are going to try to go DOO on this new franchise. At the moment Stagecoach have never been involved in any DOO operations. Where as First have run lots of DOO on a large amount of their franchises. If they try to bring DOO it will certainly cause GTR style chaos on SWT (maybe even worse the GTR). I hope they will keep Guards on 100% of trains and keep their duties exactly the same (rather then introducing Driver opens Guard closes operations or anything like that).

I also really hope First continue to call them Guards and don't use some ridiculous name like Conductor / Senior Conductor / Train Manager / Train Captain etc.

It will be crazy if the 707s get replaced seeing as they have just been ordered and are still in the process of entering service. That is such a waste of time and money. It is very disappointing that they have no plans to replace the 158s and 159s at the moment. These trains really need to be replaced. They have such an unsuitable layout and are getting quite old. It would be far better to spend money on replacing the 158s and 159s than replacing the 707s.

While First are much better than Govia they are still not really that good. They didn't do a good job at First Capital Connect and haven't really done a good job at First Great Western either. I just hope they don't mess up their new SWT operations.

Are you scaremongering? The only DOO First have had on their franchises was in operation before privatisation!

Anyway I don't think FGW/GWR are that bad, they are on par with SWT imo

 

[northwichcat]

Are you scaremongering? The only DOO First have had on their franchises was in operation before privatisation!

Anyway I don't think FGW/GWR are that bad, they are on par with SWT imo

The TPE ITT say bidders could consider using DOO and First won it with a bid that will have a guard on every service.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The TPE ITT say bidders could consider using DOO and First won it with a bid that will have a guard on every service.

Not only that, but using rolling stock that absolutely could not be DOO anyway by UK standards (LHCS).

 

[Morgsie]

On the interactive map which on the DfT website it says: an earlier first train from Lymington Pier to London Waterloo

I don't think the infrastructure is in place for through trains as the line is connected to the SWML down towards Weymouth. I am not sure there is a link from this line to the SWML Up line past the crossing. Can someone please clarify this?

Also I recall Reports that recommended Ringwood and the Fawley Branch opened for passengers yet no mention of these in this announcement.

As for Southampton Central it has been talked about a few years as it is part of the broader picture of redeveloping the city centre

(I am from Dorset originally and grew-up with NSE and SWT and remember travelling on the 442 and the old slam-doors)

 

[Class 170101]

Any mention of the premium payments to the Treasury? I haven't seen anything so far.

 

[infobleep]

An example of where South West Trains don't get it right is in their station communication. Sometimes it's perfect, other times is useless. Also passengers end up with large gaps at Woking to Guildford or visa versa.

Im hoping First might wind away of deal with this, if at all possible. Perhaps they might run stopping trains to Guildford during such disruption. There is limited but possible time to turn them back at Guildford.

Tonight train breaks down at Petersfield on the London bound line.

The 18.30 is started short from Guildford. Both the 18.45 and 19.00 are delayed. The first by 27 minutes due to displaced crew. The second due to delayed train.

The previous train to Guildford left at 18.43. The next one due now is at 19.42, assuming it actually departs Woking then, which I imagine is unlikely as it's unusual for trains to make up time to Woking I'd have though.

On top of that I arrived at Woking at 18.51. The screen was still showing the 19.14 as on time due to CBS fault. I spoke with staff who were told train would be 10 minutes late. I asked other staff as they said 12-15. Eventually at 19.12 the train was announced. Only then did a member of staff came on the tanoy to say disregard the announcement as the train was still at Waterloo.

Eventually when the train left they informed us.

That message should have been announced at least 20 minutes earlier. They knew it was delayed. Even a 10 minute delay should be announced. It's possibly no one at the station was aware of the CIS fault so thought the station was making automated announcements.Twitter staff were aware of the fault.

The main issue though is the almost hour gap between services. We are going to get three trains to Havant turning up within 6 minutes of one another! Two of them showing as arrived at the same time on the same platform!

This doesn't happen continuously but it's not unheard of. Even in the opposite direction from Guildford to Woking it happens. It's as if they can't start services from Woking so you get a gap as hardly any stopping services overlap the route between Guildford and Woking. Hopefully First / MTR can deal with this.

I'm sure some of the people around me aren't think South West Trains should remain their franchise. Personally I still think they should have done but that is without seeing the two bids side by side for comparison.

 

[Morgsie]

It shall be interesting to see what Stagecoach bid was like but if I am not mistaken that is kept confidential and I did read the Stagecoach Press Release and they are asking for feedback regarding their bid.

 

[Bald Rick]

Any mention of the premium payments to the Treasury? I haven't seen anything so far.

£2.6bn over 7 years, which is rather less than many anticipated.

They also have revenue protection based on GDP and Central London Employment.

 

[GW43125]

I don't think the infrastructure is in place for through trains as the line is connected to the SWML down towards Weymouth. I am not sure there is a link from this line to the SWML Up line past the crossing. Can someone please clarify this?

Pretty sure there's a crossover at the north end of the station.

 

[LLivery]

Well this is very disappointing. I have always found Stagecoach South West Trains to be by far the best TOC in the UK so it will really be a shame to see them go.

Putting the 442s back in to service on SWT is ludicrous. The 444s are bad enough with their unsuitable layout but the 442s are even worse with their very narrow doors at each ends of the coaches and limited disabled access. This is really a backwards step. Would they should really be doing is ordering more 350 / 360 / 450 / 700 / 707 style trains.

Another thing is when the 442s were originally with SWT they had full Guards panels which allowed the Guard to open and close the doors. The when they were sent to Govia they were converted to operate DOO and had the Guards panels replaced with new very basic panels which only have a close button and a signal button (they don't have open buttons or local door controls). I hope First will bring back the old full panels as otherwise they will probably try to use this as an excuse to convert to DOO.

I really worry that First are going to try to go DOO on this new franchise. At the moment Stagecoach have never been involved in any DOO operations. Where as First have run lots of DOO on a large amount of their franchises. If they try to bring DOO it will certainly cause GTR style chaos on SWT (maybe even worse the GTR). I hope they will keep Guards on 100% of trains and keep their duties exactly the same (rather then introducing Driver opens Guard closes operations or anything like that).

I also really hope First continue to call them Guards and don't use some ridiculous name like Conductor / Senior Conductor / Train Manager / Train Captain etc.

It will be crazy if the 707s get replaced seeing as they have just been ordered and are still in the process of entering service. That is such a waste of time and money. It is very disappointing that they have no plans to replace the 158s and 159s at the moment. These trains really need to be replaced. They have such an unsuitable layout and are getting quite old. It would be far better to spend money on replacing the 158s and 159s than replacing the 707s.

While First are much better than Govia they are still not really that good. They didn't do a good job at First Capital Connect and haven't really done a good job at First Great Western either. I just hope they don't mess up their new SWT operations.

I'm sure First Capital Connect, FGW Link and First Great Eastern were already DOO apart from the fleet that the 360s replaced (can't remember their class no.). I'm not particularly happy with Stagecoach loosing the franchise either but I think all operators have seen the fiasco of GTR and would probably want to stay away from enforcing DOO, especially on SWT, with the Waterloo upgrade and even more so if the DfT didn't ask for it. South West going into strikes would of been even more embarrassing for the government because it's Tory Minister/Secretary heartland and it's such an important franchise. Honestly, I doubt any company would have even bid for it if DOO was required.

In the reactionary world we live in, people realising the new 707s are going and the old 442s will be back, it will not go down well.

 

[pompeyfan]

There's a crossover country side of Brockenhurst station, in line with the yard.

 

[Kite159]

Pretty sure there's a crossover at the north end of the station.

Looking at my Quail*, the only crossover east of Brokenhurst only allows access for the Poole stoppers to cross over to P1 for their extended festers, no crossover giving access to the up line from P3/P4. If a direct service was to run I suspect it will cross over to the west of the station into either platform 1 or into platform 2.

*OK it was printed in 2008 so probably has changed since then

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Didn't Virgin WC become a management contract (not a franchise) for 5 years during the West Coast Route Modernisation?

Yes indeed, but the same people (shareholders, ie VRG) were in charge of the operation, and still are.
There was another management contract 2012-13 after the refranchise fiasco.

 

[387star]

Stagecoach look after their trains better the fgw west fleet in particular have been in a very rundown state although this may be due to less slack and the maintenance depot being a long way from parts of the network. I remember working a 150/9 and a passing swt guard being shocked at its internal state.

The fgw hsts were also looking bery rundown before their dynamic lines refurbishment

Stagecoach seem to be consistently good

The pink and blue first colours were truely hideous so at least they are concentrating on smart well thought out designs now like gwr

 

[Matt Taylor]

No there isn't, the nearest crossover is in Totton Yard.

 

[absolutelymilk]

£2.6bn over 7 years, which is rather less than many anticipated.

They also have revenue protection based on GDP and Central London Employment.

That's about the same as they are paying now, I guess this is due to having to buy lots of expensive new trains over a relatively short franchise.