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Wales & Borders Franchise Consultation

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ChiefPlanner

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That was the original plan back in 2012 before 'blue sky thinking' took over, and NR incompetence on GW electrification became clear, which has led to the WG thinking they can do a better job themselves, hence why they want control and ownership of these new 'Core Valley lines' transferred to them - see article a page back.
We could do better than class 315s though - by the time any electrification is done the glut of 321s and 360s from East Anglia would be available, as well as some 323s I believe.

A agree totally on the odd "strategy" , however all over this forum people are eyeing up the Northern 323's , there are only 18 of them , and plenty of work for them in the West Midlands area , best option long term is to go for a new build aka the Desiro family or similar.

315's are 1979 vintage and good as they are - will not really go on for much longer at an "affordable" maintenance cost.
 
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Envoy

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As I understand it, Network Rail must keep control of the lines going west out of Cardiff Central - including those to Penarth & Barry as these form part of the diversionary route to Bridgend (& west Wales) when the main line is closed. That being so, the City Line from Radyr via Fairwater to Central also uses these same tracks and must therefore be part of the Network Rail controlled system. As of now, the City Line trains continue through Central to Queen Street and then up to Heath Halt and through north Cardiff to Coryton (which is only 1 mile from Radyr as the crow flies). So, cross Cardiff journeys on this line on one train will be lost if the core valley lines become some form of tram system.

Furthermore, it is Welsh Government Planners who pushed through the hated Local Development Plan that will see an urban sprawl going across what is now open countryside between NW Cardiff and Llantrisant. As things stand, plans have been made to run buses on the present road network from this - what is in effect a new town. (The present road network in already jammed up in places like Fairwater and Llandaff). So, the Metro plans show a new rail line coming off the City Line near Fairwater station and then heading out to Cregiau. This would serve the new urban areas. Do these Welsh Government Planners not realise that if they were to build this rail route that it would be very costly and have to comply to Network Rail standards?

I think that all the plans to build on the countryside between Cardiff & Llantrisant should be cancelled until we have costings for such a new rail route. As things stand, the LDP for Cardiff is deeply flawed. It would be an absolute disaster if all of this development took place and then the Welsh Government turned around and said that they could not afford to pay for this new ‘Metro’ route. (I reckon they will have enough on their plate dealing with electrifying the present network and procuring rolling stock).
 
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northwichcat

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A agree totally on the odd "strategy" , however all over this forum people are eyeing up the Northern 323's , there are only 18 of them , and plenty of work for them in the West Midlands area , best option long term is to go for a new build aka the Desiro family or similar.

It's actually 17 x 323s Northern have. Porterbrook want one operator to have all the 323s and refused to agree a new long-term lease for 323s with Northern. There's been suggestions LM could get a new type of EMU for longer services, as well as the rest of the 323s and 350/4s and then release the 319s and 350/2s.
 

gareth950

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As I understand it, Network Rail must keep control of the lines going west out of Cardiff Central - including those to Penarth & Barry as these form part of the diversionary route to Bridgend (& west Wales) when the main line is closed. That being so, the City Line from Radyr via Fairwater to Central also uses these same tracks and must therefore be part of the Network Rail controlled system. As of now, the City Line trains continue through Central to Queen Street and then up to Heath Halt and through north Cardiff to Coryton (which is only 1 mile from Radyr as the crow flies). So, cross Cardiff journeys on this line on one train will be lost if the core valley lines become some form of tram system.

I'm strongly in favour of ALL of what is classed as the current valley lines network, inc. to Barry, Bridgend, Penarth and the City line being electrified, but i'm starting to think that NR should be allowed to build on CASR and get as much capacity out of the current VL network as it can, by doubling single line sections and widening bridges, redeveloling and expanding Cardiff Central, before electrification finally happens.

New bi-modes could be ordered now to cover the looming DMU crisis that could be turned fully electric eventually.

There's a lot of connectivity through Cardiff that will be lost if trams are chosen for half the network and if I was NR I'd be fuming with WG over the way they've dithered and handled this. It's all entirely political, not pragmatic. P4 at Central is being linked up to Queen St in the next few weeks as part of the final stages of CASR, it makes you wonder why they are still bothering.
 

ChiefPlanner

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It's actually 17 x 323s Northern have. Porterbrook want one operator to have all the 323s and refused to agree a new long-term lease for 323s with Northern. There's been suggestions LM could get a new type of EMU for longer services, as well as the rest of the 323s and 350/4s and then release the 319s and 350/2s.

Sorry 17 diagrams for an 18 strong fleet !
 

daodao

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As I understand it, Network Rail must keep control of the lines going west out of Cardiff Central - including those to Penarth & Barry as these form part of the diversionary route to Bridgend (& west Wales) when the main line is closed. That being so, the City Line from Radyr via Fairwater to Central also uses these same tracks and must therefore be part of the Network Rail controlled system. As of now, the City Line trains continue through Central to Queen Street and then up to Heath Halt and through north Cardiff to Coryton (which is only 1 mile from Radyr as the crow flies). So, cross Cardiff journeys on this line on one train will be lost if the core valley lines become some form of tram system.

Furthermore, it is Welsh Government Planners who pushed through the hated Local Development Plan that will see an urban sprawl going across what is now open countryside between NW Cardiff and Llantrisant. As things stand, plans have been made to run buses on the present road network from this - what is in effect a new town. (The present road network in already jammed up in places like Fairwater and Llandaff). So, the Metro plans show a new rail line coming off the City Line near Fairwater station and then heading out to Cregiau. This would serve the new urban areas. Do these Welsh Government Planners not realise that if they were to build this rail route that it would be very costly and have to comply to Network Rail standards?

I think that all the plans to build on the countryside between Cardiff & Llantrisant should be cancelled until we have costings for such a new rail route. As things stand, the LDP for Cardiff is deeply flawed. It would be an absolute disaster if all of this development took place and then the Welsh Government turned around and said that they could not afford to pay for this new ‘Metro’ route. (I reckon they will have enough on their plate dealing with electrifying the present network and procuring rolling stock).

The Valley lines are a single network and it would be stupid to split services at Cardiff. It would be an operational nightmare and make it difficult for some passengers to travel directly to the most appropriate city centre station (Central/Queen St/Cathays) nearest to their intended destination. Hopefully it will never happen.
 

Rhydgaled

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And that's possible now thanks to CASR - 16tph both ways could be done if enough stock was available. I assume you don't mean 32 tph both ways?
Around 32 arrivals and 32 departures per hour. Heavy rail would be 11tph (4 from Penarth, 3 from Barry Island and 2 from Bridgend, plus 2tph to Radyr via Ninian Park). If we pretend that platform 8 became a bay platform for those services, 60 divided by 11 is 5.45 minutes to turn the train round and get it back out so the next one can take the platform. Platforms 7 and 8 would then be the terminus for light-rail services, which would come at a frequency of at least 16 per hour (probably more, 16 being 4tph each from the Treherbert, Aberdare, Merthyr and Rhymney lines). I think 16 trams per hour is a turnround time of 7.5 minutes with two platforms.

The approach of the Welsh Government to the Franchise and the 'Metro' is infuriating. As they always say Keep it Simple Stupid.

Valley Lines

* Electrify all routes including Vale of Glamorgan, Maesteg, Ebbw Vale, Marches
line to Abergavenny and Glouscester Line to Chepstow. Services to be initially
run with Class 315 shortened to three cars.
* Sort out ticketing - ITSO/Iff card, barriers, review prices.
* Extra parking - P&R at appropriate/new stations.
* Increased revenues to pay for new stock.
Simple, but problematic. The marches and Chepstow routes are not currently earmarked for electrification, and by 2023 (which now seems to be the target date for electrification) the 315s may have been scrapped (and 3-car might be less than needed at peak times, given most ValleyLines platforms are now able to take a 4-car 150 formation and some (Treherbert and Rhymney to Penarth, I think) can take 6-car 150s). There's also the problem of TSI-PRM compliance for the 150s and Pacers; there's no time to get the wires up, and if 150s are made compliant the ROSCO will probably require them to be kept beyond 2023 in order to recoup the investment in PRM mods, meaning unsuitable 150s on long journeys or delays to electrification until the 150s can be got-rid. And the Pacers need replacement anyway (Porterbrook's response to one of the consultations/inquiries suggests they've given up on ePacer following the Northern franchise outcome). New bi-modes could also delay full-electrification, and probably wouldn't arrive before 2020 (Anglia's deliveries are due to run into late 2019 I believe). Thus I would suggest:
  1. Bring in around 20 bi-mode 319s, which should be enough to replace the Pacers given some run as 4-car sets
  2. Order up some mrk5 coaches (probably the only new-build fleet possible by 2020) to create a cascade with 175s releasing 150s from routes such as Cardiff-Cheltenham for...
  3. ...forming into 4-car formations on the ValleyLines network, with around 20 units going for PRM mods and the remainder banned from working alone (is that allowed within the TSI-PRM rules?)
  4. Electrify from Barry to Pontypridd
  5. Order new 3-car and 4-car EMUs with UEGs and 20m vehicles (something like an Electrostar; better yet get the 379s from Anglia and off-load some of the vehicles to other TOCs to have a mix of 4-car and 3-car units come to Wales)
  6. Electrify the Ebbw Vale line, and Cardiff Central to Maesteg
  7. Electrify Cardiff Queen Street to Rhymney
  8. Introduce the new 3-car EMUs
  9. Electrify from Bridgend to Swansea, and if not done already get Bristol Parkway to Temple Meads wired
  10. Electrify from Pontypridd to Treherbert, Aberdare and Merthyr
  11. Introduce the new 4-car EMUs, cascading the 319s onto the Swanline and Cardiff-Cheltenham services (linked into a through service), plus new all-stops services to HEREFORD (absolutely NOT Abergavenny, because of the wider interchange potential at Hereford) and Chepstow. Also introduce a Cardiff-Bristol semi-fast service (replacing part of the Cardiff-Taunton service); for this reason at least some of the new EMUs must be outer-suburban (rather than inner-suburban), but I'm wondering whether the whole metro should be outer-suburban because of the possibility of long journeys between the valleys and Vale Of Glamorgan stations.
I've not put Cardiff Bay, Penarth and Coryton on the list for electrification, because they could perhaps be converted to tram (if they have their own street-running core section), but if not converted they must also be electrified.

The idea with the mix of 4-car units and 3-car ones is that the 3-car units could run as single-units off-peak on the routes with 4-car platforms, with the 4-car units running off-peak on 6-car routes. Then, in the peaks the 4-car units go on the 4-car routes with the 3-car units doubling up to make 6-car trains. Technically, the 4-car EMUs don't need UEGs, since they won't run in multiple (hence the 319s being ok); but future-proofing.

The 319s will be life-expired sooner than a new bi-mode, allowing an earlier oppertunity to get the routes to Hereford and Cheltenham electrified.

The only problems I can see are:
  • whether the 319s on diesel mode can keep to current schedules while waiting for wires
  • whether you can make the 319 interior 'outer-suburban' enough for the longer journeys from Swansea to Cheltenham and Cardiff to Hereford (the doors are 'inner-suburban' ones as the 150s have, and they're 20m vehicles), especially since the Cheltenham route would by that point be used to regional express 175s
  • how you get the plan across to the Welsh Government and get them to agree to it
 

Bletchleyite

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Doors at thirds are used on all sorts of services in the South East, even ones you'd call regional rather than outer-suburban. It's about the seating, really.

Put nice seats in like the GWR HST ones with tables and they'll be fine for that role.
 

gareth950

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[*]how you get the plan across to the Welsh Government and get them to agree to it
[/LIST]

Ironically, I think this would be the hardest part of your plan! You should seriously type it up and take it along to one of the consultation events and hand it to someone in authority there - maybe representatives of the TOCs and see what response you get (if any).

With light rail at Central, even going into platforms 6 - 8, the track layout is so complex I wonder if you could really keep HR and LR completely seperate - hence all the speculation of trams being allowed no further then Queen St into Cardiff. Trams just shouldn't happen full stop. There wouldn't be any street running on the current VL network, apart from to the Bay. Even if enough people objected in the consultation, would WG listen? The only hint of possibly breaking up the current VL network in the consultation document was a question about whether you think that freight should still be allowed on the valley lines, or if the capacity currently used by freight should 'be freed up for passenger services'. Of course, Joe Bloggs isn't going to unerstand the REAL question being asked there are they? Why would Joe Bloggs care about freight services? Of course they'll say scrap the frieight trains! Talk about a leading question.
 
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Dai Corner

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Perhaps we could persuade WG that a cross-city railway line is a fashionable thing to have? For example Birmingham, Liverpool and Glasgow have them, Manchester is spending millions to build one and London already has one but is spending billions to build a second one.
 

anthony263

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Maesteg/Beddau - Cardiff Central - Ebbw Vale/Abertilerry/Cheltenham service perhaps maybe some bi mode units
 

Gareth Marston

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Perhaps we could persuade WG that a cross-city railway line is a fashionable thing to have? For example Birmingham, Liverpool and Glasgow have them, Manchester is spending millions to build one and London already has one but is spending billions to build a second one.

Alas I think they have it in their heads that they have to do something "innovative" and different to Westminster and will chuck out common sense in the process.
 

gareth950

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Alas I think they have it in their heads that they have to do something "innovative" and different to Westminster and will chuck out common sense in the process.

:( We can only hope that the bidder you mentioned that wants to keep the VL network heavy rail as is, is the most affordable and so winning bidder, even if it is Arriva.
 
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Gareth Marston

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:( We can only hope that the bidder you mentioned that wants to keep the VL network heavy rail as is, is the most affordable and so winning bidder, even if it is Arriva.

If so it will be the first bid Arriva will have won under DB ownership?. Arriva of old was always the lowest subsidy / sweat the assets bidder rather than an expansionist bidder.

If the bidders have genuinely been given free reign (which I doubt) there could be a lot of divergence in them. Whilst ATW have been a milch cow for Arriva Group mainly as the "no growth" which didn't have to be accommodated did happen they will have to have their thinking caps on this time presumably the % cut will be fixed so a lot bigger pie will need to be created.
 

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If so it will be the first bid Arriva will have won under DB ownership?. Arriva of old was always the lowest subsidy / sweat the assets bidder rather than an expansionist bidder.

That was true until they won Northern.
They also won the LO rebid on their own account rather than 50/50 with MTR.
But you are right, ATW kept the DB UK portfolio afloat during problems with XC and Chiltern.
 

Gareth Marston

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That was true until they won Northern.
They also won the LO rebid on their own account rather than 50/50 with MTR.
But you are right, ATW kept the DB UK portfolio afloat during problems with XC and Chiltern.

Sorry not got thinking cap on- don't post whilst at work boys and girls you get distracted- yes Arriva read the political tea leafs well when the Torys got the jitters in the run up to 2015 election, I'm told that one bidder submitted the ePacer/ D stock bid that DFT officials had been privately briefing bidders about and the permanent secretary Rutnam was trying to push it at Ministers....

I understand that Arriva UK are running the bid not anyone from ATW so no inside track contacts to use not that ATW staff are known to be chummy with WG anyway.
Abeilio have an ex Labour MP in their bid team and one of the other non Arriva bidders an ex Lib Dem AM presumably there trying to farm WG contCts to get advantage.
 
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Solaris

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The whole point of the output based procurement and its competitive dialogue is to enable TfW to work with bidders and develop and deliver the most effective solution within the capital/revenue envelope regardless of the mode. This does mean innovation and transformation... and likely a very different and markedly better service for passengers
 

LNW-GW Joint

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Sorry not got thinking cap on- don't post whilst at work boys and girls you get distracted- yes Arriva read the political tea leafs well when the Torys got the jitters in the run up to 2015 election, I'm told that one bidder submitted the ePacer/ D stock bid that DFT officials had been privately briefing bidders about and the permanent secretary Rutnam was trying to push it at Ministers....

Rutnam (who did not want to get rid of Pacers and had to be publicly overruled by McLoughlin to authorise new trains) has gone from the DfT to the Home Office.
Replaced as Permanent Secretary by Jonathan Moor from "Resources and Strategy".
May not have much to do with railways in Wales though, once devolved to Cardiff, but he will control the NR budget.
 

gareth950

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The whole point of the output based procurement and its competitive dialogue is to enable TfW to work with bidders and develop and deliver the most effective solution within the capital/revenue envelope regardless of the mode. This does mean innovation and transformation... and likely a very different and markedly better service for passengers

Sounds like a TfW press statement. Where does splitting and/or breaking up the valley lines and making cross city journeys through Cardiff more difficult come into that?
 
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HowardGWR

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The whole point of the output based procurement and its competitive dialogue is to enable TfW to work with bidders and develop and deliver the most effective solution within the capital/revenue envelope regardless of the mode. This does mean innovation and transformation... and likely a very different and markedly better service for passengers
Today 14:36

Sounds like a TfW press statement. Where does splitting the valley lines and making cross-Cardiff journeys more difficult come into that?

I don't know about that, but a translation into English (or perhaps Welsh) would be more capable of being understood.
 

Gareth Marston

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The whole point of the output based procurement and its competitive dialogue is to enable TfW to work with bidders and develop and deliver the most effective solution within the capital/revenue envelope regardless of the mode. This does mean innovation and transformation... and likely a very different and markedly better service for passengers

You missed out the bit about everyone lived happily ever after.....

This sort of stuff is straight out the civil service jack and Jill book of how to outsource successfully- of course in the real world the miracle benefits never happen like that.

The Welsh Government has had over ten years to realise the nature of what's needed and plan for it. It should have known years ago what is and isn't possible within its budget constraints and planned accordingly. The only discussion should be around things that are mid list and maybe won't be affordable. Let's face it Valley Lines should have been wired a couple decades ago. Is it really this hard? No.
 

Solaris

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Until a determination is made through procurement any assumptions about what the system / network will look like or how it will operate is pure speculation ...
 

Dai Corner

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Until a determination is made through procurement any assumptions about what the system / network will look like or how it will operate is pure speculation ...

Indeed. But as there seems to be little or no information about what our money is going to be spent on there is going to be speculation. I, for one, would much rather be discussing the pros and cons of actual proposals.
 

Rhydgaled

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Metro will run at least four services an hour across the whole network
Do they really mean the 'whole network' or do they mean the core ValleyLines? Because if they want to increase the Maesteg-Cardiff stoppers to every 15 minutes it will cause serious problems for fast/semi-fast services on the GWML (I personally think a new line capable of at least 100mph running is needed between Cardiff and Bridgend for mainline services, with freight and metro using the current GWML).
 

Gareth Marston

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Until a determination is made through procurement any assumptions about what the system / network will look like or how it will operate is pure speculation ...

As I posted previously my sources confirm one bidder has gone for all heavy rail metro one an all LRT system and the other 2 a mixture.
 

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Rutnam (who did not want to get rid of Pacers and had to be publicly overruled by McLoughlin to authorise new trains) has gone from the DfT to the Home Office.
Replaced as Permanent Secretary by Jonathan Moor from "Resources and Strategy".
May not have much to do with railways in Wales though, once devolved to Cardiff, but he will control the NR budget.

rutnam has been promoted as the Home Office is viewed as one of the top 3 departments presumably he's done a good Job at Transport in Whitehall eyes!
 

Gareth Marston

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Do they really mean the 'whole network' or do they mean the core ValleyLines? Because if they want to increase the Maesteg-Cardiff stoppers to every 15 minutes it will cause serious problems for fast/semi-fast services on the GWML (I personally think a new line capable of at least 100mph running is needed between Cardiff and Bridgend for mainline services, with freight and metro using the current GWML).

You have a west facing bay at Bridgend so 2 tph could terminate there and still maintain the frequency level or combine them with VOG services.
 

Rhydgaled

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You have a west facing bay at Bridgend so 2 tph could terminate there and still maintain the frequency level or combine them with VOG services.
That wouldn't give the Metro stations at Pencoed, Llanharan and Pontyclun a 15min interval service, so they wouldn't be able to claim the full network was served that frequently. Even a half-hourly service at those three stations with the present infrustructure seems likely to cause problems if mainline services are improved at all. Personally, I think there should be a minimum service of 3tph between Swansea and Cardiff (one all-stations 'Swanline' and two calling only at Neath, Port Talbot and Bridgend) plus Carmarthen-Cardiff expresses (hourly) and, prefrably, a 4th tph to Swansea (semi-fast with stops at Neath, Port Talbot, Pyle and Bridgend). With 2tph to Maesteg, that's 7tph between Cardiff and Bridgend. Given that the route has 4min headways the problem is the speed differential, with fast trains catching up with stoppers and freights.
 

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As I posted previously my sources confirm one bidder has gone for all heavy rail metro one an all LRT system and the other 2 a mixture.

That's quite positive as it offers a genuine choice rather than all bids being much the same and just differing on minor details like which rolling stock is to be procured and the exact price as is more common on the mainline.
 
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