CrossCountry HST's & Voyagers

[squizzler]

Okay I'm gonna take the bait...

The elderly deserve their discounts. They have contributed to society for many years. Students haven't and often have access to more money than a retired person.

These would be the same retired people who went out their way to acquire alternative transport as soon as they could afford it? The generation who left the railways for Beeching to deal in the manner that children might walk away from a toy that bored them for somebody else to clean up?

Strange for an industry to be obliged to reward a generation that treated it so badly on their watch.

I could go on about the myriad of financial and housing crisis, the ecological catastrophe and all the rest which can trace their existence to problems set in motion by the policies enacted by the "baby boomer" generation. So-called brexit might well turn out to be their final and cruellest betrayal.

Students coming through the system now have formative memories that post-date the financial crisis, that is to say, they do not remember any period of economic growth. As my student days were during the late 1990's millennial period (Brit-Pop, Cool Britannia, the Millennium!) I find it really hard to put myself in the mind of someone going through higher education nowadays.

I know who I think more deserving of discounted travel. More pragmatic from a business perspective too - form the rail habit amongst customers who have several decades of business ahead of them.

Oh, before I go too far off track, Voyagers suck, HST's rule.

 

[Skipness]

Today I had a roughly 3 hour trip each way on CrossCountry bettween Newport and Plymouth. The outbound leg was a HST and I'm now sat on a Voyager on the way home. It got me thinking, other than their length, Why do Voyagers get so much bad press on this forum? The HST was bouncy, there was precious little legroom, the seats gave me a bad back before we had even left the station and none of the PIS systems were working. On the other hand, the voyager is comfortable, plenty of legroom, nice ride and has a very pleasant interior ambiance. I can honestly see no reason why anybody would prefer the HST?

I regularly travel from Derby to Plymouth, deliberately using the 10:30 (originates from Edinburgh) as it is an HST diagram, and the times suit me as well.
Today was NOT the day for a Voyager. Train was practically full ex Derby and full with multiple standees ex Birmingham. Post Cheltenham it did empty somewhat, of people if not of empty alcoholic bottles and cans. The advantages of having 7 carriages instead of 4.

 

[AndrewE]

Would still need to be parked on the road... And where conversion of these former high rise office blocks for student accomodation continues apace here in the centre of Bristol, there simply is no on-street parking available, in practical terms...
The options are :- on foot, by bus, by train, or by bicycle (very much so here in Bristol), which they then want to take onto the overcrowded trains !

I can vouch for the fact that 40 years ago lots of students (and junior railway employees) in Bristol did use pushbikes, but I'm sure that a lot more could have! The buses would have been better used if they had been a bit more user-friendly. The bike was needed for grown-up commuting as the Severn Beach branch often didn't run either early enough for an early shift, or after a late one!

 

[ValleyLines142]

I regularly travel from Derby to Plymouth, deliberately using the 10:30 (originates from Edinburgh) as it is an HST diagram, and the times suit me as well.
Today was NOT the day for a Voyager. Train was practically full ex Derby and full with multiple standees ex Birmingham. Post Cheltenham it did empty somewhat, of people if not of empty alcoholic bottles and cans. The advantages of having 7 carriages instead of 4.

That's because of the Cheltenham Races. Any service would have been busy today.

 

[AndrewE]

I've never smelt anything. To be honest some passengers smell worse

You have been lucky then, maybe you just have a deficient sense of smell, or maybe you hold your breath between the platform and your seat! The toilet flushing system on Voyagers and Pendolinos was a disaster initially, leaving the vestibules stinking of sewage. It's better now, but still happens.

 

[Skipness]

That's because of the Cheltenham Races. Any service would have been busy today.

It was easy to spot those going to the races.... 1 because of their dress. 2 by the cans and bottles being consumed

 

[broadgage]

I much prefer HSTs to voyagers on comfort grounds, but the difference is ls less than it was.
And not because voyagers have got better, but because HSTs have been made worse, at least on GWR.
The once comfortable HSTs have been modernised by removing most of the tables, cramming more seats into each carriage, and on some sets removing the proper buffet and substituting a microbuffet.
Almost like a new train.

 

[Master29]

The thing is when you do get a window seat on a voyager, the window seems considerably bigger.

That's true, and not to mention if you sit in the priority seats they are quite roomy. Another thing is voyagers pull away nice and fast and if the underfloor engine is turned off you can get a nice smooth ride. I still prefer HSTs though as I'm not sure about the ambience bit.

 

[47271]

if the underfloor engine is turned off you can get a nice smooth ride.

I think you've hit the nail on the head there. [emoji38]

 

[SpacePhoenix]

How much longer would the Voyager coaches have to be to accommodate the extra emissions stuff if a new build of coach for them were to ever happen?

 

[ValleyLines142]

You have been lucky then, maybe you just have a deficient sense of smell, or maybe you hold your breath between the platform and your seat! The toilet flushing system on Voyagers and Pendolinos was a disaster initially, leaving the vestibules stinking of sewage. It's better now, but still happens.

Clearly. I have had the odd whiff from them now and again, but nothing major....

 

[najaB]

How much longer would the Voyager coaches have to be to accommodate the extra emissions stuff if a new build of coach for them were to ever happen?

I don't think they would have to be any longer, it would just be a case of doing the needful in the space available.

 

[Great_Western]

I don't think they would have to be any longer, it would just be a case of doing the needful in the space available.

Would they not get some sort of grandfather rights? If your only making extra coaches then it is probably much easier to circumvent emissions laws

 

[coppercapped]

Okay I'm gonna take the bait...



These would be the same retired people who went out their way to acquire alternative transport as soon as they could afford it? The generation who left the railways for Beeching to deal in the manner that children might walk away from a toy that bored them for somebody else to clean up?

Strange for an industry to be obliged to reward a generation that treated it so badly on their watch.

<SNIP>.

Hmm. Lovely rant! But elementary arithmetic seems to be beyond you! The 'Baby Boomers' are normally considered to be the children born between 1947 and 1950. When the Stationary Office published Beeching's first report the eldest would have been all of, ooh, 15 and the youngest 12. These were not the the people who 'acquired alternative transport as soon as they could afford it' which led to the loss in traffic which led to Beeching.

If you are looking for somebody to blame then it was the previous generation what done it! You know, the heroes who survived and helped win the Second World War.

 

[CosherB]

Would they not get some sort of grandfather rights? If your only making extra coaches then it is probably much easier to circumvent emissions laws

I think we've gone well past the point of grandfather rights, and any new build of Voyager carriages, for a multitude of reasons. I'd have thought that the future is likely to be doubled-up units and new stock for XC.

 

[The Ham]

I'd have thought that the future is likely to be doubled-up units and new stock for XC.

There is also the possibility that we could see some end coaches stored/scrapped to then create longer units.

The logic in this is that it is better to scrap 1/4 of the coaches in the 220 fleet so that the are 17 * 6 coach units (or even 4 * 10 and 4 *11 coach units) on a lease, rather than 34 * 4 coach units sat idle.

Do the same to the 221 fleet (16 * 10 coach units) and you would have a small fleet (24 units) of high speed DMU's that would actually have a decent capacity.

Pair those with a fleet of about 42 * 5 coach 80x units (giving a total fleet size 66 units compared current 62/63 depending on if the extra unit has made it into traffic yet) and XC would have a fairly decent fleet with the scope to significantly increase capacity on all their services.

Their shortest units would have at least 315 seats compared with 200 (+57.5%) while there would be a lot of full length units with 50 first class seats seats and 504/570 standard class seats, which would still be a small (10.8%) increase over a pair of 221s.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

If the tilt mechanism on class 221s were to be either completely isolated or removed, could any class 220 coach (driving trailer or trailer) be used interchangeably with any class 221 coach?

 

[Sparks807Evo]

If the tilt mechanism on class 221s were to be either completely isolated or removed, could any class 220 coach (driving trailer or trailer) be used interchangeably with any class 221 coach?

I know that 221 coaches can work interchangeably within 220 units, so can't see why there would be a problem in reverse. When 60207was fire damaged in 2012, they used 60885 out of 221135 to keep 220007 in service.

 

[Sparks807Evo]

Seeing the two carriages of 221144 when passing Central Rivers, does anyone have an idea when it will be re-entering service as a part of the franchise extension agreement?

 

[sprinterguy]

Seeing the two carriages of 221144 when passing Central Rivers, does anyone have an idea when it will be re-entering service as a part of the franchise extension agreement?

December this year.

 

[DarloRich]

Seeing the two carriages of 221144 when passing Central Rivers, does anyone have an idea when it will be re-entering service as a part of the franchise extension agreement?

December this year.

As a four car meaning two 5 car trains will be reduced in length? How many extra seats does this generate?

 

[sprinterguy]

As a four car meaning two 5 car trains will be reduced in length? How many extra seats does this generate?

Yes to the first, no idea to the second. What seating increase will be realised from the addition of one more Voyager to the fleet will depend on what jiggery pokery can be achieved with the diagrams.

 

[DarloRich]

Yes to the first, no idea to the second. What seating increase will be realised from the addition of one more Voyager to the fleet will depend on what jiggery pokery can be achieved with the diagrams.

Thanks - I assume the answer is 2 x the number of seats in a driving carriage. Whilst any extra capacity helps i wonder if the impact of shortening two trains will be an increase in over capacity generally!

 

[sprinterguy]

Thanks - I assume the answer is 2 x the number of seats in a driving carriage. Whilst any extra capacity helps i wonder if the impact of shortening two trains will be an increase in over capacity generally!

The Crosscountry timetable consultation notes seventeen Intercity services each day that would be reduced in capacity in whole or in part as a result of the whole package of proposed changes: Mainly reductions from five to four carriages.

There's twenty four trains that would gain additional capacity, though: It's all swings and roundabouts when there's only minimal changes being made to the size of the existing train fleet.

 

[Thunderer]

Voyagers are just simply awful to travel any distance:roll:
I avoid them as much as possible when using XC. They smell of sewage, the coaches are cramped and the underfloor engines are noisy and the cheap plastic fittings rattle all the time, scratching your brain to the point of dispair :cry: A dreadful design and an extremely poor substitute for the HST on long distance services. When travelling to Devon, I purposely plan my journey so I get a XC HST down and back. The HST was a classic, popular and comfortable design for long distance Inter-City travel and no stock post privatisation comes close to it
The IEP is a glorified Voyager which will offer hard, uncomfortable seats, under-floor engines (when not utilising the overhead catenary) and limited capacity (I bet you will often see a 5 coach IEP working London - Swansea jammed to the rafters with people standing) - The Inter-City passenger has been conned post privatisation with not fit for purpose, low grade and low capacity DMU's/DEMU's running long distance services at premium prices. No wonder most people go by car now

 

[Deafdoggie]

Given the choice, I try to choose the voyager over the HST. Why? Because the HST is old and noisy (I'm afraid anyone who says it isn't is wearing rose-tinted.err...headphones?) You can get an app on your phone that measures noise, and the HST is far noisier than the voyager, but rail-fans don't like under-floor engines, and therefore believe them to be noisey! Even if all proof and evidence says otherwise!

Also the HST's are, of course, used on the busiest services, thus meaning they are busier. The basic (only?) problem with the voyagers, is that they are too small. If each one was, say, 10 coaches, I'm sure all the problems would disappear.

I have had to sit on a HST with no window view, I don't know why people think it is unique to Voyagers. I guess same as under-floor engines, no real evidence, but anything to praise a HST, and slate a Voyager.

It is a difficult problem for XC, they offer very expensive fares, and still the trains are overcrowded! You can't blame them for not offering cheap fares, think how crowded the trains would be then! Of course, some trains do have cheap fares, but they aren't the crowded ones.

I've often wondered about if First Class should be abandoned on XC, and thus create more seating for the rest of us. But it is amazing how full First Class can get.

Overall Voyagers are good trains, just far too short. Ideal world-and money no objective- make them 10 coaches each. But clearly that isn't going to happen, and we are where we are.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Today I had a roughly 3 hour trip each way on CrossCountry bettween Newport and Plymouth. The outbound leg was a HST and I'm now sat on a Voyager on the way home. It got me thinking, other than their length, Why do Voyagers get so much bad press on this forum? The HST was bouncy, there was precious little legroom, the seats gave me a bad back before we had even left the station and none of the PIS systems were working. On the other hand, the voyager is comfortable, plenty of legroom, nice ride and has a very pleasant interior ambiance. I can honestly see no reason why anybody would prefer the HST?

Thank god a sensible person at last! DOWN WITH VOYAGER HATE! LONG LIVE VOYAGERS!

(In other words I love them)

 

[yorksrob]

Given the choice, I try to choose the voyager over the HST. Why? Because the HST is old and noisy (I'm afraid anyone who says it isn't is wearing rose-tinted.err...headphones?) You can get an app on your phone that measures noise, and the HST is far noisier than the voyager, but rail-fans don't like under-floor engines, and therefore believe them to be noisey! Even if all proof and evidence says otherwise!

Perhaps its the type, or quality of the noise.

I've usually got my headphones in, however whenever they come off I enjoy the swoosh of a mk3 going through the countryside. Voyagers, like most modern trains seem to rumble. I also like the blast of cool air when one goes into the vestibule.

I can always feel the edge of a voyager seat against the inside of my leg. I have been grateful for the window blinds in steerage at times though.

 

[skyhigh]

I was on a Voyager from Birmingham earlier this week, and the display at the end of the coach just showed "This coach is fully reserved, please check you are in your correct seat... This service will become extremely busy" - is that normal? It seems it would make more sense to show the calling pattern. In comparison, the display on the HST in the other direction seemed much more useful.

 

[Martin_1981]

My old man travels down to Exeter from Leicester at least 3 times a year to visit me and work for one of his clients. Always, as a matter of course, gets the 8.12 XC HST from Birmingham NS to Exeter and the 13.24 back. He had a lovely trip back on the 13.24 from Exeter a week last Saturday (43321 and 378 went like a dream), he had the quiet coach at the front and managed to reserve a seat in a table of 4 with plenty of room. He is of the same opinion as me, can put up with Voyagers if necessary but the HST wins hands down in terms of space, comfort and quietness, not to mention the odd squeak, rattle and jerk.

The HST's have been nothing short of magnificent in their 40 year life, amazing to think they are still doing journeys such as London to Inverness and Plymouth to Glasgow on a daily basis in 2017. A marvellous piece of British engineering.