CrossCountry HST's & Voyagers

[Clansman]

Being a student myself who has travelled on XC and didn't absolutely detest the Voyagers, I'm guessing I'm definitely in the 'do not like' category?

Exactly. Same with me. I don't see what the issue is. I am not sure where the fact students come into this.

Join the club, I've no idea either.

If anything, I'd say us students are generally more pleasant than a lot of middle aged folk on trains. We just tend to mind our own business. Although I mind being around 14 and receiving dirty looks from an elderly woman from Oxford for sitting in first class onboard a XC Voyager, sporting a Fred Perry polo shirt and skinny jeans. The same woman who felt it was her civil duty to inspect every single ticket of any young looking folk who came into the carriage. Although the look on her face when a Glaswegian woman with a standard class ticket boarded and responded "Naw, but I'll sit where I want to, thank you dear", was absolutely priceless.

If views from the majority of members on these forums accounted for decisions made in the railway, I'd put a tenner on students and railcard holders being segregated into their own TOC consisting of the full fleet of Voyagers, graffitied and manky with a name like Scheme Rail. Whilst the nostalgic population sit on a BR Blue HST sipping on their tea and munching their prawn sandwiches as the wind gently glides through the carriage, caresses their newspapers and flows back out the nearest open droplight.

Yawn :roll:

 

[LordCreed]

Bully for you. Try it without having the ability to plan 17 months in advance. Then come back to me.

Last time I checked you can reserve a seat on a CrossCountry service ten minutes in advance...

 

[DarloRich]

Well, sea level rise and all that. Got to think ahead.

Where will we put the dilithium crystals?

That's the case with every train in the country. Students don't just travel on XC services. Is your suggestion to remove railcards altogether? How about removing senior railcards? Can't imagine that going down well....

Also, if you're referring to the NUS discount I can assure you not many people know about it at all.

Yesterday I didn't have to sit on the floor on a Scotrail, Virgin Train or EMT but did on XC. That one was FULL of students. Surely it would be better for XC to ban student railcards on the grounds of capacity and profitability. The elderly deserve their discounts. They have contributed to society for many years. Students haven't and often have access to more money than a retired person.

For what reason?

because they think they know everything despite knowing nowt and having no experience of the real world away from the warming embrace of mummy and daddy and their cheque books. That and their hair.

TBH I hated students even when I was at university. For me university was a crucial path to a professional career involving 4 years of constant study and hard work followed by 6 hour exams and a massive dissertation. For many of them it was a doss in the pub.

I have done. I have experienced both booking in Advance and travelling on the day and I've never had a problem. I guess I'm just one of the lucky ones.

You have been. Try my 3 hour plus journey breathing pooh fumes and then comment. Until then............

If views from the majority of members on these forums accounted for decisions made in the railway, I'd put a tenner on students and railcard holders being segregated into their own TOC consisting of the full fleet of Voyagers, graffitied and manky with a name like Scheme Rail. Whilst the nostalgic population sit on a BR Blue HST sipping on their tea and munching their prawn sandwiches as the wind gently glides through the carriage, caresses their newspapers and flows back out the nearest open droplight.

Yawn :roll:

I just want a modern train that at least replicates the comfort of older trains - Perhaps you are too young and callow to have been able to travel on those type of trains. God I sound old

Last time I checked you can reserve a seat on a CrossCountry service ten minutes in advance...

If you know how and there are seats available which is never guaranteed on a 4 or 5 car long distance intercity train

 

[Clansman]

I just want a modern train that at least replicates the comfort of older trains - Perhaps you are too young and callow to have been able to travel on those type of trains. God I sound old

Fair enough. I'm not really one for fully empathising with nostalgia when I've not had any relatable experiences myself. I grew up travelling on 170s and 158s mainly, so vibrating trains was just the norm for me (to the dismay of the older generations) so whenever we would take family trips down South, I'd consider the Voyagers a step up from what I was used to and I'd always perceive them as great Intercity trains, probably down to the occasion of going away I suppose - although I don't hold them as high regard as I used to.

The only dosage of "those types of trains" I got was the odd occasion on GNER HSTs which I found very luxurious given the colour scheme and the smoothness of the journey was quite something to a young kid compared to rattling about in a Turbostar! I recall travelling on an Mk1 during a Thomas the Tank Engine open day at Aviemore and didn't really find anything special about them other than the weird shaped windows - probably just my age if anything.

Looking forward to trying out the IEPs and Mk5s etc, as you basically said; a modern train should look to older trains as a benchmark when it comes to passengers comfort. At least you got a proper good auld fashion dose of comfort compared to the younger generation like myself.

 

[DarloRich]

Fair enough. I'm not really one for fully empathising with nostalgia when I've not had any relatable experiences myself. I grew up travelling on 170s and 158s mainly, so vibrating trains was just the norm for me (to the dismay of the older generations) so whenever we would take family trips down South, I'd consider the Voyagers a step up from what I was used to and I'd always perceive them as great Intercity trains, probably down to the occasion of going away I suppose - although I don't hold them as high regard as I used to.

The only dosage of "those types of trains" I got was the odd occasion on GNER HSTs which I found very luxurious given the colour scheme and the smoothness of the journey was quite something to a young kid compared to rattling about in a Turbostar! I recall travelling on an Mk1 during a Thomas the Tank Engine open day at Aviemore and didn't really find anything special about them other than the weird shaped windows - probably just my age if anything.

Looking forward to trying out the IEPs and Mk5s etc, as you basically said; a modern train should look to older trains as a benchmark when it comes to passengers comfort. At least you got a proper good auld fashion dose of comfort compared to the younger generation like myself.

I quite like the 170's and the 158's. I think they do a good job when used on the correct services. I find them comfortable and a decent environment to be in. I am not sure they are right for the longer distance runs that XC and Scotrail use them on but they are OK even on those, if a bit small.

BTW - I am not THAT old

 

[Clansman]

I quite like the 170's and the 158's. I think they do a good job when used on the correct services. I find them comfortable and a decent environment to be in. I am not sure they are right for the longer distance runs that XC and Scotrail use them on but they are OK even on those, if a bit small.

BTW - I am not THAT old

I quite like the 170s, although the 158s engine sound is really annoying with the fan. Generally good, comfortable and reliable trains. Got to agree on you there, they are vastly out of their depth in terms of the routes they both serve.

Not to worry lol, I was trying to be wary in terms of how I came across

 

[D1009]

• Ban all railcard holders, especially student rail card holders

Including staff passes?

 

[DarloRich]

Including staff passes?

why not - basically until i get one of these cards they are all banned.

 

[J-2739]

If you ban people off trains for no particular reason at all, then surely it's not 'public transport' then?

The last time I went on a Voyager, I was about 4, but I've been on the Meridians, if that counts!

They're both nice in their own ways, to be fair.

 

[dk1]

why not - basically until i get one of these cards they are all banned.

You could always marry me

 

[LordCreed]

They have contributed to society for many years. Students haven't and often have access to more money than a retired person.

Without digressing too much, that's a tad judgemental. Whilst the vast majoirty of elderly people have contrbuted to society in a meaningful way, it's not true about every single pensioner. There's some students who have contributed far more to society.

Whilst I agree that there is definitely too much alcohol focus on university, don't tar everyone with the same brush...

If you know how and there are seats available which is never guaranteed on a 4 or 5 car long distance intercity train

I've never had a reservation refused if I book it in the morning. Only a couple of times have I had issues when trying under half hour out.

 

[GW43125]

Last time I checked you can reserve a seat on a CrossCountry service ten minutes in advance...

There have to be free seats for that to work...

 

[JohnRegular]

• Ban all railcard holders, especially student rail card holders
• Ban all students
• Remove bike storage and ban bikes
  

They take up seats at a discounted rate that could be sold to normal people paying more. And I don't like students.

because they think they know everything despite knowing nowt and having no experience of the real world away from the warming embrace of mummy and daddy and their cheque books. That and their hair.

... but you're not serious, are you?

That's a sweeping generalisation at best and discrimination at worst.

More on topic, I was on a Voyager from Aberdeen to Bristol in December, and didn't see what the huge fuss was about. It was mostly quite pleasant, although it did indeed get busy towards Bristol.

 

[sprinterguy]

because they think they know everything despite knowing nowt and having no experience of the real world away from the warming embrace of mummy and daddy and their cheque books. That and their hair.

TBH I hated students even when I was at university. For me university was a crucial path to a professional career involving 4 years of constant study and hard work followed by 6 hour exams and a massive dissertation. For many of them it was a doss in the pub.

As has been pointed out already admittedly, and possibly worthy of a separate discussion, that is a sweeping and peculiarly vague interpretation of "students".

I'm not sure why you consider that an entire, very vaguely defined, contingent of society might all be considered inferior against your method and standard of study, or why those same people might be immediately considered different upon gaining full time employment post graduation.

Plus "a doss in the pub" might well be used to describe many a longstanding traditional railway career, and despite adhering to modern restrictions within the industry I do my best to do my forbears proud. :-P

 

[The47Wanderer]

because they think they know everything despite knowing nowt and having no experience of the real world away from the warming embrace of mummy and daddy and their cheque books. That and their hair.

TBH I hated students even when I was at university. For me university was a crucial path to a professional career involving 4 years of constant study and hard work followed by 6 hour exams and a massive dissertation. For many of them it was a doss in the pub.

Welcome to the real world, Hoss. Please understand a lot of these uni graduates are going to be the doctors, financial advisors, dentists, and other tertiary sector, service industry job holders, giving grumpy older people like yourself a somewhat comfortable life. They'll also go into primary sectors, like farming, providing the food you eat, secondary sector, such as construction, and even Quaternary sector jobs, including scientific breakthroughs and developments, discovering cures for things we thought incurable. Sure, there may be the odd one who doesn't end up anywhere, causing havoc, but then, not all older people are that great, either, huh? I think someone's a little jealous of others' achievements.
Despite not being a student of a "university", or "college", I do fit in with that age group. I used to visit home on a regular basis, with a perfectly valid seat ticket and reservation, while old, arrogant people sat in seats with no ticket. I saw it happen many times. It's not just students. It's "your kind", too.



Back onto discussion, despite being somewhat nostalgic about the HST, being a little bias, i do think it reigns superior. The brighter, more natural light makes a big difference, with the quieter, smoother ride. They always smell fresher, too. Feel wider in the aisles and seats, too.

 

[yorksrob]

Welcome to the real world, Hoss. Please understand a lot of these uni graduates are going to be the doctors, financial advisors, dentists, and other tertiary sector, service industry job holders, giving grumpy older people like yourself a somewhat comfortable life. They'll also go into primary sectors, like farming, providing the food you eat, secondary sector, such as construction, and even Quaternary sector jobs, including scientific breakthroughs and developments, discovering cures for things we thought incurable.

Not to mention the full fare paying, non-railcard eligible working age passengers of the future !

 

[Minilad]

Oh I do love a good DarloRich anti student rant if only to watch all the students fall for it hook line and sinker and get all indignant.

I love it almost as much as yet another voyager thread on RUK

 

[DarloRich]

Oh I do love a good DarloRich anti student rant if only to watch all the students fall for it hook line and sinker and get all indignant.

I love it almost as much as yet another voyager thread on RUK

you spoil all my fun!

I am serious though about the capacity issue. On Sunday I traveled on a 4 car voyager. Every seat was taken ( except FC) and by Sheffield the vestibules were packed. Many (and I would say the majority) of passengers were students/young people as evidenced by the current love of students for wearing branded uni sports wear/hoodies (which i don't get but then i never really felt part of uni life)

Surely it would be more sensible for the company to sell these people full price tickets rather than discounted rate ones. If they cant afford to travel then there would be more space for those of us who can and an increase in profits for the company.

 

[The Ham]

Pensioners have contributed more to society than the current student population ever will for the simple reason that there are far more pensioners.

In 2011 there were broadly the same number of pensioners as there were all people aged 15-29. Even allowing for half of these being university students at some point in time that still means that each of them has to contribute twice that of anyone who is currently of pensionable age.

Interestingly, that then means that if you want to ensure you free up as much capacity as possible on trains the first group of rail cards you should do away with is those for the retired.

Yes some students have their faults, but then so does any category of people that you care to isolate. That's not to say that there are some who don't get the most out of the educational opportunity of being at university. However it isn't helped by some employers insisting on a degree to employ certain staff when those with good experience may be better qualified.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Is there just one or two journeys that tend to see the train packed with students? If there is how feasible would it be for XC - if they could lay their hands on a couple - run HSTs instead of Voyagers on them journeys?

 

[Sparks807Evo]

As a student myself I have the 16-25 railcard and to be honest the sheer number of students and the revenue generated using the rail network probably offsets the initial 'cost' to the network of the railcard.

From my travels over the very same section, I see a range of people; leisure travellers, family, business travellers, and of course students. Rather than going against one group, just provide the capacity for everyone. Of course that is presently easier said than done.

Now I tend to go during the more anti-social hours to get to and from Uni on the train; i.e the early and mid morning services which are quieter. Others I know do the same, or do it in the reverse by going late at night. The demand is probably pinch point in the mid-late afternoon, and not just with students.

Ideally the Voyagers would all be 7 or 8 cars, and we wouldn't discussing the issue yet again. I expect it won't be until the next franchise that we see real relief, as Arriva just aren't going to be prepared to put the financial investment in on further HST sets or new stock.

 

[ValleyLines142]

you spoil all my fun!

I am serious though about the capacity issue. On Sunday I traveled on a 4 car voyager. Every seat was taken ( except FC) and by Sheffield the vestibules were packed. Many (and I would say the majority) of passengers were students/young people as evidenced by the current love of students for wearing branded uni sports wear/hoodies (which i don't get but then i never really felt part of uni life)

Surely it would be more sensible for the company to sell these people full price tickets rather than discounted rate ones. If they cant afford to travel then there would be more space for those of us who can and an increase in profits for the company.

I honestly cannot read any more of this nonsense....

What an awful, stereotypical judgement. Very narrow-minded and ignorant to the rest of modern day society.

 

[Bayum]

you spoil all my fun!

I am serious though about the capacity issue. On Sunday I traveled on a 4 car voyager. Every seat was taken ( except FC) and by Sheffield the vestibules were packed. Many (and I would say the majority) of passengers were students/young people as evidenced by the current love of students for wearing branded uni sports wear/hoodies (which i don't get but then i never really felt part of uni life)

Surely it would be more sensible for the company to sell these people full price tickets rather than discounted rate ones. If they cant afford to travel then there would be more space for those of us who can and an increase in profits for the company.

It was the beginning/end of a number of half terms that weekend, so there will possible have been a larger number of students from university and secondary in preparation of this.

 

[Clansman]

As a student travelling on a pass, I guess I'm top of the slaughter list hock:

 

[Great_Western]

I started this thread and travel free on XC thanks to my Arriva staff pass, I must be top of his hitlist

 

[387star]

Sundays are incredibly busy these days especially with university students

It does seem utterly absurd that what were eight coach trains are now four coach trains or rather three with the first class not really relevant to most people

Splitting and joining could work beautifully and there is ample platform space to accomodate more coaches than four!

Thankfully I rarely travel xc and actively go via london for the superior trains

Isn't a refurbished HST due out?

 

[Sparks807Evo]

Sundays are incredibly busy these days especially with university students

It does seem utterly absurd that what were eight coach trains are now four coach trains or rather three with the first class not really relevant to most people

Splitting and joining could work beautifully and there is ample platform space to accomodate more coaches than four!

Thankfully I rarely travel xc and actively go via london for the superior trains

Isn't a refurbished HST due out?

It is pretty absurd really; and frustrating there isn't even enough units to do that in most situations.

The first set of MK3s with the power doors is due out in the Summer.. AFAIK four coaches at Doncaster Wabtec currently having the work done.

 

[sprinterguy]

AFAIK four coaches at Doncaster Wabtec currently having the work done.

Set XC03 is currently at Wabtec being fitted with power doors, due to be out and about by June.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Also remember, the XC voyagers are pushed a lot harder than the VTWC examples, so the levels of maintenance will vary.

How do you work that out?
The VTWC Voyagers have very intensive diagrams.
Possibly there is less start-stop running, but there is probably more at 125mph.
They are all maintained at the same place by the same people.

For what it's worth 221s are the only solution for Shrewsbury/Chester/North Wales (and Blackpool till next year).
Any other solution would be slower, as we are finding with HS2.

 

[D60]

Rather than blaming those who are using the service, surely it would be better to be blaming those who designed such a rigid structure where there is no obligation, incentive, or even flexibility, to respond to increased demand, beyond that which was planned for 7, 10, or 15 years ago (whichever may apply)..
Especially when the same people, be it HM Govt, Ministers, or Civil Servants, are those which made it policy to increase the number of students attending university to the current levels, which almost inevitably is going to increase demand for long-distance, cross-country and inter-city travel....