RMT dispute on Merseyrail

[danbarnstall]

I saw that and immediately thought just how did they consult the membership?

Guessing they willl have weekly union branch meetings of some sort, or maybe monthly?

 

[M28361M]

Entirely predictable that the RMT would target the Grand National. During the last wave of strikes, back in 2005, they held a 48-hour strike on the Friday and Saturday of the festival, and not a single Merseyrail Electrics train ran during that period. Merseytravel organised a large fleet of buses to run a free shuttle service from Lime Street direct to the racecourse, which seemed to work quite well.

I tried to work out if - assuming roughly the same number of drivers cross picket lines as did last week - Merseyrail would have enough staff available to scrape together a shuttle service from Liverpool to Aintree, at the expense of closing all other Northern Line routes. But I guess it would be risky, given the huge crowds expected, to advertise any sort of service if you're depending on staff crossing picket lines, as there's a good chance it won't run.

Merseyrail's MD isn't mincing his words (link):

‘As we predicted, the RMT has sunk to a new low by inflicting their strikes on the Grand National. Damaging the company and its passengers is one thing, but damaging the whole of the Liverpool city region on one of its proudest and most important days of the year is impossible to understand. It cannot be right that the RMT executive, sitting in London, has taken an unnecessary decision that represents a barefaced attack on the reputation of our region.

‘The Saturday of the Grand National is one of our busiest times of the year, and we will make every attempt to ensure that we successfully move around the high volumes of people who choose to travel with us that day. Timetables for the day are currently being developed and will be published very soon.

‘We have put forward firm proposals about how we will look after our guards, who, subject to successful negotiations with the RMT, are being guaranteed work in the business, once the new trains are introduced in three years’ time.’

 

[AlterEgo]

RMT rep on Granada Reports has just said that their members demanded to strike on Grand National Day to show how angry they are.

If that is true then I hope they get shafted into the next century like they did on GTR.

 

[Skie]

Run nothing on any other line and just throw as many 6 car expresses as you can at Liverpool Central to Aintree.

If there are enough bods then an express service from Chester to James Street might be useful too. Could even run those direct to Liverpool Central via the stock interchange line if they were feeling brave. With no other services running the headways would likely allow it.

 

[Foxcover]

Now there's a thought...Wirral to central high level!

 

[danbarnstall]

Now there's a thought...Wirral to central high level!

The Wirral line loop is completely closed of a weekend at the moment until June (Unless they already have an agreement in place especially for Aintree weekend)

 

[kw12]

But it is not relevant here.

These new guards have been employed with the expectation of being employed by Merseyrail for three years. At no point has that expectation been in any way different.

Surprisingly, legally the non renewal of a fixed-term contract on its expiry constitutes a dismissal of the employee, even though both parties knew at the start of the contract when it would end.

 

[Class83]

The Wirral line loop is completely closed of a weekend at the moment until June (Unless they already have an agreement in place especially for Aintree weekend)

It's supposedly open on Aintree weekend.

Liverpool Central to Aintree (all stops) is 17 minutes, if they only stop at Moorfields maybe 12, 40 minute round trip. Now they had 10 drivers last Monday (presumably some combination of managers, non-union members and ASLEF members who didn't want to take secondary action) 4 is enough to offer a 10 minute 6 car service. They can repeat the split shift to allow a lunch break.

If all 10 show up I'd expect Chester to James Street to be the next service run. Not much else.

 

[6Gman]

I saw that and immediately thought just how did they consult the membership?

Through their branch reps?

 

[Bletchleyite]

The Wirral line loop is completely closed of a weekend at the moment until June (Unless they already have an agreement in place especially for Aintree weekend)

Central high level (actually Low Level, the Wirral platforms are Deep Level, High Level no longer exists). Is the stock interchange line allowed with passengers?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Surprisingly, legally the non renewal of a fixed-term contract on its expiry constitutes a dismissal of the employee, even though both parties knew at the start of the contract when it would end.

Presumably, however, they can do it if it is genuine redundancy, which it will be because of the reason these roles are being created?

 

[185143]

Central high level (actually Low Level, the Wirral platforms are Deep Level, High Level no longer exists). Is the stock interchange line allowed with passengers?

The stock exchange is not allowed with passengers. The plan was to have trains running to James Street as they do in the week.

 

[Merseysider]

The stock exchange is not allowed with passengers. The plan was to have trains running to James Street as they do in the week.

Is that due to no evac routes?

I hope, for the sake of those visiting Liverpool from afar, that at least 4tph can run to Aintree, even if nothing else runs. Not that I particularly care about the races, but because it is the city's reputation at stake.

 

[muz379]

They can't back down. Northern would be in breach of their franchise agreement if they did, while Merseyrail's financial case for new rolling stock would be destroyed.

Merseyrail I can see not backing down because they are going through a total fleet replacement in a short space of time which is going to make the guard grade vanish entirely . See what happens if/when Aslef go into dispute .

But I can see Northern going back to the DFT to try and get some concessions because the dispute on Northern is far more complicated with the requirement that they are still going to need guards for some time to come especially if Aslef really dig their heels in

I predict this one will be long and painful but the TOCs will win and the guards will lose - with far less accommodation than they would get if it was just accepted.

This is the thing it is not just TOC's vs guards . I dont know any Drivers who want DOO either and if ASLEF go into dispute and opt to strike then there is no token service offering using barely trained managers to operate trains .It is a simple case of no wheels turning

The contract length was clear at the point of the job being offered. If you don't like the terms of the job offered, don't take it.

It is not always as easy as refusing a job offer just because you dont like the terms . In the real world sometimes people have to take jobs despite them being offered on a temporary basis . I think it is only human that those people want job security however .

Misuse of contracts is one thing, but this is not misuse. Merseyrail require some guards for three years, so they are going to market to obtain some guards for three years. There is nothing whatsoever underhand about that, and in my view anyone saying otherwise is completely wrong.

I would argue however then that it is underhand for merseyrail to be stating that their position in relation to this dispute is that nobody is going to loose their job . They ought be more clear about the numbers of people that will effectively (and maybe even legally)be subject to redundancy because they are employed on fixed term contracts .

You said it yourself when you said

I genuinely do not believe anyone will be forced out of Merseyrail's employment as a result of the plans

I personally believe that it is likely that some of these people who have been employed on temporary contracts will be forced out of Merseyrails employment as a result of their plans . Either of us could be right . But one thing is a fact . There is potential there for people to be forced out despite them wishing to stay on in that grade or another grade .

I tried to work out if - assuming roughly the same number of drivers cross picket lines as did last week - Merseyrail would have enough staff available to scrape together a shuttle service from Liverpool to Aintree, at the expense of closing all other Northern Line routes. But I guess it would be risky, given the huge crowds expected, to advertise any sort of service if you're depending on staff crossing picket lines, as there's a good chance it won't run.

It is likely perhaps that more Drivers seeing last weeks action will refuse to cross picket lines this time making matters worse .

Besides which this is irrelevant , Merseyrail will have several plans knowing the risk of drivers not crossing the picket line is high one of those plans will simply be to suspend services .

I think they will advertise a service on the basis that drivers come in however they will have to make blanket suspensions of service like last Monday . Lets just hope they can get buses in adequate numbers to cover say the number of drivers on early turns being enough to get people there but then late turn drivers refuse to cross pickets in substantial enough numbers to lead to suspension of service .

 

[fowler9]

Personally I still support the drivers and guards but I think that the date chosen will cost them a lot of support from people who aren't really interested in politics or what the dispute is actually about.

 

[185143]

Is that due to no evac routes?

I hope, for the sake of those visiting Liverpool from afar, that at least 4tph can run to Aintree, even if nothing else runs. Not that I particularly care about the races, but because it is the city's reputation at stake.

I think so, but am not 100% sure. I'll try and find out

 

[WatcherZero]

Entirely predictable that the RMT would target the Grand National. During the last wave of strikes, back in 2005, they held a 48-hour strike on the Friday and Saturday of the festival, and not a single Merseyrail Electrics train ran during that period. Merseytravel organised a large fleet of buses to run a free shuttle service from Lime Street direct to the racecourse, which seemed to work quite well.

I tried to work out if - assuming roughly the same number of drivers cross picket lines as did last week - Merseyrail would have enough staff available to scrape together a shuttle service from Liverpool to Aintree, at the expense of closing all other Northern Line routes. But I guess it would be risky, given the huge crowds expected, to advertise any sort of service if you're depending on staff crossing picket lines, as there's a good chance it won't run.

Merseyrail's MD isn't mincing his words (link):

RMT were kind enough to move the Southern strike from the 4th to the 8th as well, just so they don't feel left out unable to see the race at home unlike their northern compatriots.

 

[AntoniC]

Last time the Guards went on strike, Merseyrail ran a service of :

Approx 07.30 to 11.00 am then shut down and

Approx 14.00 pm to 18.00 pm then shut down.

From the guards I spoke to (and I use Merseyrail for my daily commute to work), support among the guards (who are RMT members) was 100%.

I was inconvenienced by the last strike on the 13th March, but I support the Guards, but as others have said Merseyrail will win the fight in the end.

 

[WatcherZero]

Yes apparently many non-union members didn't cross the picket lines at Merseyrail leading to lower than planned service though at Northern many union members reported for work allowing more services than planned to operate while at Southern strike observance is getting quite low.

 

[ANorthernGuard]

Yes apparently many non-union members didn't cross the picket lines at Merseyrail leading to lower than planned service though at Northern many union members reported for work allowing more services than planned to operate while at Southern strike observance is getting quite low.

ASLE&F members did report for work but the Guards were Solid especially on the west side.

 

[Robertj21a]

Yes apparently many non-union members didn't cross the picket lines at Merseyrail leading to lower than planned service though at Northern many union members reported for work allowing more services than planned to operate while at Southern strike observance is getting quite low.

The Southern strikes have been going on for a lot longer !

 

[Goldfish62]

They can't back down. Northern would be in breach of their franchise agreement if they did, while Merseyrail's financial case for new rolling stock would be destroyed.

I predict this one will be long and painful but the TOCs will win and the guards will lose - with far less accommodation than they would get if it was just accepted.

I also think that long term damage will be done to the railways, both in terms of passenger numbers and investment. While in some areas, bus services will benefit as passengers transfer, they will also suffer from increased traffic congestion as people give up on public transport altogether and transfer to cars, as is already being evidenced in East Sussex by one of the large operators (not GoAhead).

 

[ivanhoe]

The National will go ahead as usual because Merseyrail will get enough Drivers and Guard Managers to get people from Liverpool City Centre to Aintree. Coupled with recent experience in bussing lots of Wirral Commuters to Liverpool, nothing will stop the great day. A spectacular own goal by the RMT. I have sympathy for Guards but youve chosen the wrong cause of action.

 

[Goldfish62]

I wonder what the media will make of this as an opportunity to get as much "news" out of it.

Liverpool is a bastion of the Labour Party and Joe Anderson is always trying to raise the profile of the city, so having the racing "Jewel in the Crown" affected transport-wise to a horse racing event which is known world-wide will cause him some angst. I wonder if he will make a media statement?

From May Merseytravel will be under the control of the newly elected Mayor of the Liverpool City Region, who is most likely to be Labour. I wonder if they will take a more populist stance than the Merseytravel Committee.

 

[Chester1]

It is not always as easy as refusing a job offer just because you dont like the terms . In the real world sometimes people have to take jobs despite them being offered on a temporary basis . I think it is only human that those people want job security however .

I would argue however then that it is underhand for merseyrail to be stating that their position in relation to this dispute is that nobody is going to loose their job . They ought be more clear about the numbers of people that will effectively (and maybe even legally)be subject to redundancy because they are employed on fixed term contracts .

I personally believe that it is likely that some of these people who have been employed on temporary contracts will be forced out of Merseyrails employment as a result of their plans . Either of us could be right . But one thing is a fact . There is potential there for people to be forced out despite them wishing to stay on in that grade or another grade .

A 3 year contract is very good security. The Unions will get very little sympathy if they use that argument. Perhaps Merseyrail should be clearer thay only existing staff will be retained but I dont see anything wrong with them employeing people on a fixed term contract.

 

[Bletchleyite]

A 3 year contract is very good security. The Unions will get very little sympathy if they use that argument. Perhaps Merseyrail should be clearer thay only existing staff will be retained but I dont see anything wrong with them employeing people on a fixed term contract.

Nor me. That argument is tenuous in the extreme. They are being honest and up-front about their intentions and I fail to see any valid criticism of that whatsoever.

All I'll say is, remember the Dockers. This won't be like GTR[1] or ScotRail, it'll be like that.

It's different from every other DOO case, as I keep saying. I can understand defence of existing members' existing jobs. But beyond that it's turning into the union wishing to block Merseyrail's future plans that do not adversely affect their present members, which I see as being well beyond their remit and out of order.

Yes, there's the safety argument, but that is not how they are conducting themselves.

[1] That said the GTR guards have lost. The OBS role is a significant downgrade from Guard, and I'd expect to see it abolished at the next franchise change, with some RPIs retained and the rest laid off.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I personally believe that it is likely that some of these people who have been employed on temporary contracts will be forced out of Merseyrails employment as a result of their plans

I think they possibly all will. And I don't see why they shouldn't. It is quite clear what the contract is and why it is as it is. There is no deception. There is nothing underhand. Merseyrail need guards for three years and have advertised a role on that basis. I simply cannot see an issue with that.

 

[Robertj21a]

I think they possibly all will. And I don't see why they shouldn't. It is quite clear what the contract is and why it is as it is. There is no deception. There is nothing underhand. Merseyrail need guards for three years and have advertised a role on that basis. I simply cannot see an issue with that.

I think the problem is that the railways have rarely been in that situation, so tend to not really understand it. The majority of employees in other industries, all over the UK, are accustomed to being on fixed contracts or, if permanent, they will still be on 1/3/6 months notice.

 

[muz379]

A 3 year contract is very good security. The Unions will get very little sympathy if they use that argument. Perhaps Merseyrail should be clearer thay only existing staff will be retained but I dont see anything wrong with them employeing people on a fixed term contract.

If that is the case and the unions will not get public support for this why is Merseyrail not being clearer as you say on the numbers of people who will simply not have their contract renewed and will in effect be facing redundancy in 3 years time .

If the case for public support is so weak what have merseyrail got to loose by pointing to the fact that the RMT are trying to protect the jobs of X numbers of people employed on a temporary basis .

Nor me. That argument is tenuous in the extreme. They are being honest and up-front about their intentions and I fail to see any valid criticism of that whatsoever.
.

I do not agree with that at all . They are making out like everybody who is currently in the guards grade will be offered an alternative job as the result of this . You know as well as I do that this is untrue .

I think they possibly all will. And I don't see why they shouldn't. It is quite clear what the contract is and why it is as it is. There is no deception. There is nothing underhand. Merseyrail need guards for three years and have advertised a role on that basis. I simply cannot see an issue with that.

Well that is somewhat of a change from your previous statement of

I genuinely do not believe anyone will be forced out of Merseyrail's employment as a result of the plans

Surely people who are employed on 3 year contracts are still part of Merseyrail's employment , and I would suspect that when their 3 year contract is up some of them would rather remain on the railway than end up facing what is in effect redundancy and have to look for a new job . I would consider that people being forced out of Merseyrails employment when they would rather stay .

I appreciate that Merseyrail has employed people on 3 year contracts because this is what the business case requires . But in this dispute Merseyrail is leading the public to believe that everyone who is currently employed in the guards grade will still be employed once all the new trains have been delivered . This is untrue and they should be honest with the public about the numbers of Guards on permanent contracts who will be regraded and the number who simply will not have a job once the new trains come .

I am not arguing about trying to protect the jobs of people who are on temporary contracts . I am merely arguing about statements Merseyrail are making to this effect .If they come out and said we currently employ 250 guards (made up number) 200 of these are on permanent contracts and will be offered alternative jobs and 50 of these are on temporary contracts and will not be given a contract renewal in 2021 when that contract runs out then I would be fine with that because that reflects the true reality of the situation .

 

[AlterEgo]

"Forced out of employment" is a completely disingenuous way of saying "three year fixed term contract ends". Staff know the end of their contract and have, well, three years to find alternative employment.

I'm going to enjoy watching the RMT make the same mistakes all over again, though I note it's only a hardcore of fools now supporting them on here. It's like the RMT have an incapacity to learn.