Arriva Rail North DOO

[muz379]

I can understand your view above about RMT press releases, but if you want me to believe that what you say about the media being the reason for the usual standard of the majority of recent RMT press releases, with their usual rhetoric about "basket cases", and the like, then you miss the point that the RMT want to put such arcane rubbish in their press releases as it suits their leadership to take such an out of date media methodology as proof of their left-wing credentials.

Here are a few recent rmt press releases , none of them seen terribly outdated or make any reference to communism to me , they all seem pretty clear , concise and to the point about the disputes they relate to .

http://www.rmt.org.uk/news/rmt-welcomes-mps-support-for-northern-guard-guarantee/ Pretty clear that the RMT is welcoming support from MP's for the campaign for a guard on every northern train , pointing to other railway operations where such gurantees have been reached .

http://www.rmt.org.uk/news/merseyrail-profits-would-pay-for-keeping-guards/ - Clearly shows that the poverty argument does not cut it on merseyrail , suggests that if dividends cannot currently be surrendered then the PTE needs to re negotiate the contract because it is frankly absurd that almost a quarter of the money passengers are putting into the pot is being syphoned off to subsidise the railway in a forign country . DOO or no DOO this is wrong .

http://www.rmt.org.uk/news/rmt-northern-rail-action-absolutely-rock-solid/ - A press release explaining how solid the support of the strike was on Northern , which if my information is correct led to a very small number of guards crossing picket lines (single figures) that is a measurable success . Also then goes on to say that this action is totally avoidable if Northern guarantees a guard on every train .

Of course if you listen to what the media say about the RMT then of course you will think as you do .

 

[northwichcat]

none of them seen terribly outdated

Apart from the one they put out on the day of the franchise launch saying there were plans to destaff stations, which is a proposal Peter Wilkinson put in the Northern franchise consultation which got dismissed as a stupid idea before the ITT was written.

 

[Pinza-C55]

The Trade Unions Act 2015 changed things. 40% of the electorate is required to vote "Yes" for a strike ballot in "important public services", which includes transport.

It will be noted that despite this new precedent it apparently requires a greater amount of support for a one day Guard's strike than to leave the EU :roll::roll:

That's true of course but those upset at the referendum result would have been perfectly happy with the percentages if the result had been in their favour

 

[FordFocus]

Any word from ASLEF about this. Given drivers don't have DOO in their contracts and a straw poll of mine with some Northern drivers suggest that 9/10 are against any form of DOO with the other one driver neutral about it.

 

[northwichcat]

Any word from ASLEF about this. Given drivers don't have DOO in their contracts and a straw poll of mine with some Northern drivers suggest that 9/10 are against any form of DOO with the other one driver neutral about it.

Didn't someone say ASLEF were waiting until they received the plans, rather than RMT's approach of calling industrial action because they haven't seen the plans?

 

[323235]

We already know broadly what the plans are as it was in the franchise specification - it is going to happen so why shouldn't the RMT start early with action against it?

The government's agenda has been clear for quite some time.

 

[Bookd]

Strike early, strike often.

 

[northwichcat]

We already know broadly what the plans are as it was in the franchise specification - it is going to happen so why shouldn't the RMT start early with action against it?

The government's agenda has been clear for quite some time.

The franchise agreement specifies the minimum requirements not exactly what they are going to do. While we accept that if they are required to run 25 services on a line per day, it's very unlikely that they'll run 40, it's a bit different for DCO as the unions don't want to hear "a minimum of 50% of passenger mileage as DCO" the RMT ideally wants a maximum of 0% mileage as DCO.

 

[Moonshot]

We already know broadly what the plans are as it was in the franchise specification - it is going to happen so why shouldn't the RMT start early with action against it?

The government's agenda has been clear for quite some time.

So if it is going to happen, what is the point of sacrificing a days salary by going on strike?

 

[muz379]

Didn't someone say ASLEF were waiting until they received the plans, rather than RMT's approach of calling industrial action because they haven't seen the plans?

The RMT industrial action was not called because they have not seen the plans .

The Industrial action was balloted for because the RMT position on this is to accept nothing short of a guarantee of a second member of safety critical staff on all trains with responsibility for dispatching the train . The company was asked if it could provide those guarantees and declined to offer them . That thereby creates the situation of union policy and company messages being in contravention of each other .

Argue all you want about the rights and wrongs of the unions position , and of how realistic the prospect is of the union having their aspirations met . But at least be accurate about why it is they are in dispute with the company .

 

[HLE]

Strike early, strike often.

Indeed, the only way to make strikes effective.

 

[northwichcat]

From the union's own press releases it sounded like Arriva had told them they'll be 2 members of staff on all services but when they were asked for a guarantee of a guard on every service Arriva said no and the RMT accused them of removing an assurance they've been given.

Surely there must be more than that to the dispute otherwise Arriva could have got a court to render the strike illegal based on misleading information being circulated.

 

[northwichcat]

That's true of course but those upset at the referendum result would have been perfectly happy with the percentages if the result had been in their favour

I voted remain and if it had been 52% in favour of remain I wouldn't have objected to another referendum in the future if circumstances change but this is off-topic for this thread.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Here are a few recent rmt press releases , none of them seen terribly outdated or make any reference to communism to me , they all seem pretty clear , concise and to the point about the disputes they relate to .

http://www.rmt.org.uk/news/rmt-welcomes-mps-support-for-northern-guard-guarantee/ Pretty clear that the RMT is welcoming support from MP's for the campaign for a guard on every northern train , pointing to other railway operations where such gurantees have been reached .

http://www.rmt.org.uk/news/merseyrail-profits-would-pay-for-keeping-guards/ - Clearly shows that the poverty argument does not cut it on merseyrail , suggests that if dividends cannot currently be surrendered then the PTE needs to re negotiate the contract because it is frankly absurd that almost a quarter of the money passengers are putting into the pot is being syphoned off to subsidise the railway in a forign country . DOO or no DOO this is wrong .

http://www.rmt.org.uk/news/rmt-northern-rail-action-absolutely-rock-solid/ - A press release explaining how solid the support of the strike was on Northern , which if my information is correct led to a very small number of guards crossing picket lines (single figures) that is a measurable success . Also then goes on to say that this action is totally avoidable if Northern guarantees a guard on every train .

Of course if you listen to what the media say about the RMT then of course you will think as you do .

Rather than listen to the media, perhaps if you saw some of the RMT press releases that were mentioned on the GTR thread over the past months by members of that union, you would perhaps understand why even some of the RMT members on that thread made a number of adverse comments about the type of wording that were used in those.

Just go back to that thread and you will see what I mean.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Strike early, strike often.

I think the rail union members who follow that advice seem to feel the regular loss of pay is something worth sacrificing if a resolution is then obtained by a result of following this course of action.

The only trouble is, to my way of thinking, is the current scenario where the DfT are offering financial loss coverage to the TOC involved and then you end up with a situation such as on the GTR franchise where the union members have lost pay over strikes that have been held so far, with matters still not resolved after quite a period of time.

 

[DarloRich]

Rather than listen to the media, perhaps if you saw some of the RMT press releases that were mentioned on the GTR thread over the past months by members of that union, you would perhaps understand why even some of the RMT members on that thread made a number of adverse comments about the type of wording that were used in those.

Just go back to that thread and you will see what I mean.

I assume it has occurred to you that people may learn from their mistakes or that local officers have a different communication style?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I assume it has occurred to you that people may learn from their mistakes or that local officers have a different communication style?

I think that point was well made when comparing the Manchester and the Liverpool officials who spoke to the media.

 

[northwichcat]

The only trouble is, to my way of thinking, is the current scenario where the DfT are offering financial loss coverage to the TOC involved

I wonder if DfT have done that to wind up the unions. The unions moan about government money going to 'large foreign owned companies' to run the railways but now if they go on strike the 'large foreign owned company' gets more government money than if the strike didn't go ahead.

 

[muz379]

Rather than listen to the media, perhaps if you saw some of the RMT press releases that were mentioned on the GTR thread over the past months by members of that union, you would perhaps understand why even some of the RMT members on that thread made a number of adverse comments about the type of wording that were used in those.

Just go back to that thread and you will see what I mean.

Quite possible that the union has listened to its members views on this and changed tact ,only time will tell if we see any more of the types of press releases that acted as a source of embarrassment during the GTR dispute .

From the union's own press releases it sounded like Arriva had told them they'll be 2 members of staff on all services but when they were asked for a guarantee of a guard on every service Arriva said no and the RMT accused them of removing an assurance they've been given.

Surely there must be more than that to the dispute otherwise Arriva could have got a court to render the strike illegal based on misleading information being circulated.

As you well know though saying that there will be 2 members of staff on every train . And guaranteeing that there will be 2 members of staff on every train are entirely different statements .

Scotrail and GTR's more recent move to DOO have included clauses saying there will be two members of staff on every train and both operations have been demonstrated time and time again to be falling short of meeting this .

Admittedly owing to being a member so receiving internal RMT communication on this matter I have not read in detail every single RMT press release about the dispute on ARN, but to me it seems relatively straight forward

The RMT asked Ariva if it could guarantee a second safety critical member of staff on every train , and if it could would that second member of staff have responsibility for operating the doors and dispatching the train . The company could not provide a guarantee of either . This is clearly in direct opposition to the unions position on staffing and operation of trains .

As for the many semantic arguments about DCO or DOO the fact is unless ARN guarantee that every single train will at the very minimum carry a second member of train crew regardless of their competencies there will be instances when trains do run with only a driver on board . Am I being stupid or will these trains running with only a driver on board not be DOO ? So even if it is only in rare cases Ariva do want the ability to be able to run DOO trains ?

Given the cost cutting and staffing issues I am hearing about in other areas of the business some of them critical roles , I would not trust them to not create situations in which several trains a day will be running with only a driver on board . After all with no mention of a penalty in the franchise agreement it seems there will be financial incentive to do so .

 

[Moonshot]

Quite possible that the union has listened to its members views on this and changed tact ,only time will tell if we see any more of the types of press releases that acted as a source of embarrassment during the GTR dispute .




As you well know though saying that there will be 2 members of staff on every train . And guaranteeing that there will be 2 members of staff on every train are entirely different statements .

Scotrail and GTR's more recent move to DOO have included clauses saying there will be two members of staff on every train and both operations have been demonstrated time and time again to be falling short of meeting this .

Admittedly owing to being a member so receiving internal RMT communication on this matter I have not read in detail every single RMT press release about the dispute on ARN, but to me it seems relatively straight forward

The RMT asked Ariva if it could guarantee a second safety critical member of staff on every train , and if it could would that second member of staff have responsibility for operating the doors and dispatching the train . The company could not provide a guarantee of either . This is clearly in direct opposition to the unions position on staffing and operation of trains .

As for the many semantic arguments about DCO or DOO the fact is unless ARN guarantee that every single train will at the very minimum carry a second member of train crew regardless of their competencies there will be instances when trains do run with only a driver on board . Am I being stupid or will these trains running with only a driver on board not be DOO ? So even if it is only in rare cases Ariva do want the ability to be able to run DOO trains ?

Given the cost cutting and staffing issues I am hearing about in other areas of the business some of them critical roles , I would not trust them to not create situations in which several trains a day will be running with only a driver on board . After all with no mention of a penalty in the franchise agreement it seems there will be financial incentive to do so .

Yes that is a bit confusing, however there are 2 caveats to consider.....1 How much revenue would be lost onboard if only the driver was the sole member of staff. 2 - What is the penalty for cancelling a train through having no conductor.

I personally dont think there will be any job losses.....we have a big increase in the numbers of services coming up over the next 18 months or so, 50% of which will require a guard as the job is now.

 

[muz379]

Yes that is a bit confusing, however there are 2 caveats to consider.....1 How much revenue would be lost onboard if only the driver was the sole member of staff. 2 - What is the penalty for cancelling a train through having no conductor.

I personally dont think there will be any job losses.....we have a big increase in the numbers of services coming up over the next 18 months or so, 50% of which will require a guard as the job is now.

That is why I say there will be financial incentives to run trains without the second member of staff , you save the costs in cancelling because of no conductor . But you can also make diagramming sufficiently tight that if the second member of train crew misses their booked work the train can still run with the train crew then getting 3 hours in the mess room whilst their service goes to leeds and back or something .

Currently with conductors there has to be some common sense in diagramming , and whilst it does occur sub 10 minute times to change trains at major stations are rare at least in my experience . Tightening up diagrams like this reduces the overall number of crew required . Details around things like spare complements could also reduce the overall numbers needed . If say booked staff going sick was an exemption to running DOO then you would not need as many spare staff to cover .


I dont think that this franchise will see any forced job losses , indeed at the moment guarantees are in place of salary and job protection until the end of the franchise . And even if those Job guarantees are dropped I think the numbers that need to go will be easily handled by natural wastage and "progression" I know plenty of guards at the moment who have applied for or are going to apply for any driving jobs that come up , and I know some who are looking for other opportunities like control or some of the more corporate jobs .

I do however think the move to the second member of traincrew being non essential to the running of the train presents the possibility that growth in the complement of conductors wont grow in line with the numbers of service because of the reasons mentioned above .

 

[Solent&Wessex]

, 50% of which will require a guard as the job is now.

The tender documents specified that the franchisee must plan for a MINIMUM 50% DOO. The exact figures that Arriva proposed and were agreed are redacted in the final franchise agreement, but informed sources suggested to me that Arriva bid somewhat higher than 50% DOO.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The tender documents specified that the franchisee must plan for a MINIMUM 50% DOO. The exact figures that Arriva proposed and were agreed are redacted in the final franchise agreement, but informed sources suggested to me that Arriva bid somewhat higher than 50% DOO.

The amount of DOO there can be is dictated by the amount of new rolling stock. The existing stock is not set up for DOO, and adding platform mirrors/cameras would be at huge cost.

I would suggest it likely that all services using the new stock will be DOO, and all services using existing stock (15x and 319/323 until the latter go) will be guarded.

 

[HH]

The tender documents specified that the franchisee must plan for a MINIMUM 50% DOO. The exact figures that Arriva proposed and were agreed are redacted in the final franchise agreement, but informed sources suggested to me that Arriva bid somewhat higher than 50% DOO.

The 50% refers to mileage; that's not the same as services. And minimum 50% was always going to be more than 50%, because these things have to be done so that you are consistent on each service. So basically a bit of "nothing to see here, move along".

 

[gavin]

Another strike announced for Saturday April 8th which is Grand National day in Liverpool

 

[ANorthernGuard]

Another strike announced for Saturday April 8th which is Grand National day in Liverpool

Rumours have been going around for that date. Personally I feel that it is the wrong decision BUT as always it will have my full support

 

[Moonshot]

ouch......that will cost a bit in ticket commission.

 

[northwichcat]

Rumours have been going around for that date. Personally I feel that it is the wrong decision BUT as always it will have my full support

Now on the RMT site as a strike day.

Also says they'll be targeting politicians. I hope that means you'll all stand outside Wilmslow station with paintball guns when George Osborne is set to pass through and will all aim at him.

 

[ANorthernGuard]

Now on the RMT site as a strike day.

Also says they'll be targeting politicians. I hope that means you'll all stand outside Wilmslow station with paintball guns when George Osborne is set to pass through and will all aim at him.

I would but sadly he never seems to be in his constituency when you want to hurl insults and pellets at him. However now he is with the London Evening Standard he will be too far away to throw the bulls**t back that he spews

 

[Cletus]

8th April sounds like a strike date that the union will change at some point, for good publicity.